Is Andy Murray the greatest pusher of all time?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Matheson, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. Matheson

    Matheson New User

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    90
    Murray has really improved his pushing game. I mean it was good before but wow he managed to beat Djokovic finally.
     
    #1
  2. darrinbaker00

    darrinbaker00 Professional

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,007
    Location:
    Berkeley, CA
    Is Andy Murray the greatest pusher of all time? No, because pushers don't even make an ATP qualifying draw, much less win the US Open.
     
    #2
  3. Funbun

    Funbun Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2009
    Messages:
    901
    How about you play Andy Murray and let's see who becomes the pusher.

    Did you even watch the match? Murray's a counterpuncher, not a pusher.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2012
    #3
  4. Passion4Tennis

    Passion4Tennis Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2008
    Messages:
    245
    The posts by Darrin and Funbun sum it up well. I'm getting tired of seeing so
    many threads/posts about Murray being labeled as a "pusher". It's really absurd.
    There are NO pushers at that level.
     
    #4
  5. DeShaun

    DeShaun Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2010
    Messages:
    2,837
    He is getting better about generating pace for purposes of active attack, but he has spent a long time absorbing pace for purposes of eliciting errors with his great feel for the ball. So, it's nice to see him crank up his ground strokes and do some actual killing as opposed to indirectly encouraging his opponent's death because attack tennis is decisive and fast whereas entrapment tennis is necessarily slower and protracted and if we're going to slow the points down I would rather watch serve and volley played with less powerful rackets instead of power pong with liberal amounts of defense being tactically dominant.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
    #5
  6. AnotherTennisProdigy

    AnotherTennisProdigy Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2012
    Messages:
    891
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    No, because he's not a pusher. Pushers don't serve at 130 mph.
     
    #6
  7. Zarfot Z

    Zarfot Z Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    786
    You've obviously never heard of Lleyton Hewitt.
     
    #7
  8. TennisLovaLova

    TennisLovaLova Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    3,069
    At least Lleyton managed to finish the point by himself instead of waiting and provoking and UE from his opponents
    Did you watch the match yesterday? Murray kept pushing the ball from his baseline to the middle of Djoko's!!!!

    23-25 hits rallies almost all concluded by an UE
     
    #8
  9. Fedex

    Fedex Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    4,655
    Location:
    Dundee
    The people that write this crap tend to be nasty immature 14 year olds or younger.
     
    #9
  10. Fedex

    Fedex Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    4,655
    Location:
    Dundee
    Yes I watched the whole match.
    The only pushing I saw from Murray was him pushing Djokovic from one side of the court to the other with hard precise shots alternating into the corners until even Djokovic broke down in the end.
    No one has ever done that to prime Djokovic.
    And in that wind it took even more skill.
    Anyone trying to deny Murray the win, and the manner of it, is despicable, bitter and biased.
    Wait a minute. Am I arguing with a 14 year old?
     
    #10
  11. Marcus2137

    Marcus2137 Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    300
    Agreed. I hate that it's so popular/cliche to call everyone pushers unless they hit winners on every point.

    If Murray is a pusher than Agassi was a pusher, as was Michael Chang and many other greats.

    Funny how a few years ago these guys were all considered great counter-punchers, but by today's forum-"GOATS" they would all be classified as pushers.

    I agree, someone who calls Murray a pusher has 1. either never played/seen a real pusher, or 2. hasn't been watching matches.

    I saw good serving, net points, aggressive forehands and backhands, balls contently clipping lines, shot after shot hit right to the corners with pace, etc. These guys are taking a lot more risk than anyone who could be defined as a true pusher.

    Don't mistake long rallies as pushing. Long rallies are simply the effect of slower conditions we have today compared to 10-15+ years ago.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
    #11
  12. paulorenzo

    paulorenzo Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,587
    Location:
    Virginia Beach
    Relative to the top 4, murray is able to be a pusher, an all out aggressor, or somewhere in between. He adapts whichever style he thinks would get him the win. Today, given the conditions, he was having success outlasting djokovic from the baseline with emphasis on control, defense,and consistency while still peppering up his shots occasionally, naturally, he stuck with that. In relation to the very top of the game and the level its played in, both murray and djokovic counterpunched well today but both had moments where they were pushing (not 3.5 pushing but top 4 pushing, all things relative) largely because of the conditions. Had the weather been calmer, i imagine their strokes would have been nuch less conservative.
     
    #12
  13. Russeljones

    Russeljones G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    12,403
    Only 3 of the top 4 in the world. A pusher is someone who lacks the shotmaking or physical ability (or both) to end a point. Someone who is more concerned about sending the ball over the net, cross-court preferably. You saw two prime examples of pushing yesterday when two of the ATP's finest frequently ran from corner to corner without really looking over the net because their skills almost mirror one another.

    Murray mixed it up with the odd terrible dropshot that he knew Novak would get to. And any attempt to name that 'calling to the net' is just excusing the limited imagination of the player. Novak's idea of variation was rushing the net after a ridiculously poor slice.

    I am sure court development (speed harmonization) and the proliferation of defensive tennis will one day make this a dignified and workman-like style of tennis no player should be ashamed of. However, I for one fail to understand why a player of such stature must wait until the XXth shot in a rally to attempt a flat forehand.
     
    #13
  14. Federer20042006

    Federer20042006 Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    2,173
    Murray has arguably the most all-around power of anyone on tour. Serves up to the high 130's. Apparently has the world record forehand. And he has hit many backhands over 100 MPH.
     
    #14
  15. Russeljones

    Russeljones G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    12,403
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics
     
    #15
  16. TennisLovaLova

    TennisLovaLova Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    3,069
    pusher or not his game was designed to win a GS which he succeeded to do, but his game= ugly tennis
    just check his mom's latest interviews she says this
     
    #16
  17. tank_job

    tank_job Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    991
    Do you know how big Murray is?

    He is the tallest of the big 4 and also the heaviest-built out of them. He has the biggest 1st serve. Since when do you call someone with a heavy first serve that knocked Djokovic down in a GS final a pusher?

    He can generate easy power, always off the backhand wing, but can also, as the radar gun shows, hit some of the fastest FH's ever (like the one against Fish).

    With his build and physical attributes, you'd actually think Murray would actually be a ballbasher, but he has the very rare ability to move exceptionally well for his height play small man and big man tennis. This is why he gives other players fits.
     
    #17
  18. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,766
    He looks pretty big in the photo below.

    [​IMG]
     
    #18
  19. Fedex

    Fedex Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    4,655
    Location:
    Dundee
    Ha ha. That was funny and the perfect reply.
    A picture paints a thousand words.
     
    #19
  20. TheF1Bob

    TheF1Bob Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,473
    Location:
    NON-Pigeon City
    He knows how to play inside tornadoes, that's for damn sure.
     
    #20
  21. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2010
    Messages:
    5,361
    Murray did play very defensive. Several times he was 6-8 feet inside the court, hit a hard deep shot and preceded to back up. He also played slices and loopy forehands many times when he had time to take the offensive.

    I was rooting for Murray but he is an ATP level pusher to a certain degree.
     
    #21
  22. Sim

    Sim Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2011
    Messages:
    431
    You kind of have to play defensive when the wind is making you unable to control your shots, but is that pushing? No way...he just hit with higher percantage shots. Slices, topspin, etc...
     
    #22
  23. Russeljones

    Russeljones G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    12,403
    You're right. It's only logical to prolong a rally when the wind can take the ball away from you at any given time. :razz:
     
    #23
  24. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    12,572
    Location:
    at the bottom of every hill I come to
    Just because a player has a plan "B" doesn't make him a pusher. I thought his play was brilliant. There were two sliced backhands Murray hit the wowed the maestro of touch McEnroe. Murray can do it all.
     
    #24
  25. tennisfreak

    tennisfreak Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Messages:
    631
    I wish I could push the ball like Andy Murray.
     
    #25
  26. Fedex

    Fedex Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    4,655
    Location:
    Dundee
    You can't coach that.
     
    #26
  27. Miljack

    Miljack New User

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    40
    My $0.02 on Murray was he played to not lose, where as at least Djokovic took some chances. Don't get me wrong, they both play high percentage tennis, so, at the top of the ATP, do those two (yes I'm counting Djokovic too) count as "pushers?" To me yes, and even at the pro's level, on that court surface, with the balls they are using, that playing style wins.
    To those who counter with "pushers don't serve 130mph," how hard was he hitting his second serve?? Serena was hitting her second serve harder. And how many mid court balls did he just loop back to Djokovic's service line? What does Raffa or Federer do with a ball that short in the court?

    Just my OPINION, but I would rather watch contrasting styles of players in a final @ the USO.
    I was happy for Murray that he broke through, and at the level's he playing right now, he will win other GS. He's shown the committment to win, and has executed, good for him!
     
    #27
  28. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    8,846
    IMO, Murray isn't a pusher at all, he's a versatile "grinder". I know these terms have no concrete definitions and I've seen them occassionally used interchangeably, but IMO there's a difference.

    Murray grinds - yes he often gives himself a large margin for error, and yes he's often getting the ball back seeking to invite errors from his opponent (believing that he's more consistent), but he's also "working" the point at the same time to create opportunities for himself to be aggressive - get a short ball and put it away, or get a look at a passing shot, or get himself to the net.

    He doesn't just put back all fluff. He hits forceful shots, even if not completely ripped, he runs his opponents with his hitting patterns, even if he's not usually going completely for the line. He is trying to force errors, but at the same time he's trying to open up the court for himself to take charge of a point when he can. I don't think the slow balls he does put back changes that.

    Pushing is more desperate and much less varied, involving literally just getting the ball back because there's not much more the player can do. Murray can do a lot more and he does.
     
    #28
  29. above bored

    above bored Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2010
    Messages:
    484
    It's all relative. He's the equivalent of a pusher at pro level. He's capable of being more aggressive, but he chooses to push a large percentage of the time.
     
    #29
  30. Miljack

    Miljack New User

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    40
    "Grinder"="pusher" in my opinon, it's just semantics at the pro level. I think most of us relate to a "pusher" just looping balls back all day, but at the pro level, and how SKILLED these two are, they pull back and play for the UE from their opponent...
     
    #30
  31. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    7,416
    Hitting only 31 winners in a five set match doesn't exactly help his cause to shrug off the pusher tag.

    In context, Federer hit 50% more than than when losing to Berdych in 4 sets (a match with 30% fewer points played).

    The conditions seemed really heavy out there for the final but, still, they were both being pretty cautious and unadventurous for the most part.
     
    #31

Share This Page