Is anyone going to attack Nadal with array of Serve-volleys or what?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by GameSampras, May 10, 2009.

  1. GameSampras

    GameSampras Banned

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    Like the great Pete Sampras said he would be licking his chops to play Nadal considering no one ever comes in attacks Nadal and puts pressure on him. Tsonga did at the AO 08 and he whopped on the boy. Sampras said, Im waiting for someone to attack the net and put pressure on Nadal instead of trying to rally with him from the baseline. Poor strategic plans by today's players is a big reason for what we are seeing now.

    Why would any player not want to altar their game and add more elements to it? What the point of trying to outdo Nadal from the baseline? Thats losing proposition obviously. Why feed into a player's strengths? Thats ridiculous
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2009
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  2. Cesc Fabregas

    Cesc Fabregas Legend

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    Federer employed this tactic at last years French Open final and got destroyed.
     
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  3. maximo

    maximo Banned

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    Yes, but on Hard court its more effective.
     
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  4. dem331

    dem331 New User

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    I think Sampras would lose to Federer in his prime and to Nadal now.
     
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  5. JoshDragon

    JoshDragon Hall of Fame

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    If Pete wants to come out of retirement to get his butt kicked by Nadal, that's fine with me.

    No, I don't think that any of the players are going to try to beat Nadal with a S&V strategy. Rafa, is too good at passing shots and most players aren't that strong at the net.
     
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  6. GameSampras

    GameSampras Banned

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    Rafa is no more of a better passer than Andre was.


    Lets be real.. Wanna know why Nadal is number 1? Do ya? The death of the great serve-volley tennis and the death of fast courts like indoors and fast grass. Thats the bottom line. Edberg, Becker, Sampras, Goran would eat Nadal alive on Hardcourts and grass.

    Of course Nadal will be number 1. THe game is filled with baseliners and slow courts.
     
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  7. JoshDragon

    JoshDragon Hall of Fame

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    That's like saying that Pete, Edberg, Becker, and Goran were only the top players because of fast indoor courts and fast grass. Nadal and other grinders would eat them alive on slower courts.

    What's the point of debating something as trivial as this?

    Btw, I don't think you watch Nadal, very much, as you have said in the past that he has no weapons. He does have weapons, most notable are his speed, focus, and his backhand.
     
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  8. Frankauc

    Frankauc Professional

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    lol. Sampras would get pass each time. Nadal's speed and spin allows him to hit great angled passing shots and get high %.
     
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  9. All-rounder

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    On fast hardcourts like US open it works but on todays grass no chance look how many passing shots nadal hit against federer in last years final and the french open.......well we know what happened there
     
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  10. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    Probably the reason most players don't do it is because they usually get passed or lobbed.

    Tsonga did it once and then got his butt kicked the next couple times they played.

    Anyway, it's a pretty poor percentage for players to abandon their natural games to serve and volley against Nadal when it hasn't worked that well in the past.

    Pete? I don't know what would happen there? I mean, Pete was the man, but Rafa has too many skills, movement being one. That's one thing he definitely has over Agassi, so it's hard to say definitively what Pete would do, besides talk.
     
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  11. All-rounder

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    Soon it will be focus forehand backhand as his speed will no longer be a weapon no matter how good he is age will catch up and thats when or possibly serve and volley might work on nadal
     
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  12. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I agree with you. I don't think anyone has the skills to regularly attack Rafa with a serve and volley attack with the possible exception of Tsonga. Definitely there is no one like Pete Sampras actively playing today.

    I'm not sure if Becker, Edberg etc would eat Nadal alive but it would be fun to watch. It's very fun to watch serve and volleyers versus a top baseliner on almost any surface.

    It would be interesting against Sampras. I think Pete c. 1994 would stand a great chance against Nadal on hardcourt, indoor or grass, especially the 1994 Wimbledon grass. On today's Wimbledon grass, I'm not sure since I've never seem Pete play on it.

    With Pete's serve, it would be hard for anyone to blow him out on those surfaces. On clay Nadal of course would have the edge.
     
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  13. TheNatural

    TheNatural Legend

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    No one does it this era because they never learnt to volley and play at net instinctively as a primary way of winning points. If they did they would use a lot of net play alongside their baseline play.
     
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  14. All-rounder

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    On fast hardcourts sampras would have nadal covered but on slow nadal would hit passing shots one after the other
     
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  15. All-rounder

    All-rounder Legend

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    Well if you can't beat them join them :)
     
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  16. Hankenstein

    Hankenstein Professional

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    One guy that could have done that was Gasquet,, but Oh, that´s right... it might not work.. I heard he goes to much for the lines...
     
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  17. slicefox

    slicefox Banned

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    They slowed down all the courts, otherwise nadal wouldn't be able to win anything.

    I loved how Tsonga whooped on him at the AO, if I see that type of play a few more times, I would achieve tennis-watching nirvana.
     
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  18. Gugafan

    Gugafan Hall of Fame

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    Lol HaHa

    Mardy Fish tried at the US Open and managed to get a set. Murray also executed a serve volley game against Nadal at the Aus Open, which went to 5 sets.

    The problem with alot of the current players are they dont possess that instinctive first volley like Rafter, Sampras, Edberg etc.
     
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  19. cucio

    cucio Legend

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    The edge? :) More like the complete U2, their manager and some of the backstage people.
     
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  20. thalivest

    thalivest Banned

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    Goran eat Nadal alive on hard courts, LOL! The guy who made only one semifinal and one quarterfinal his whole career of hard court slams and made annual first or second round exits at the U.S Opens to no names. More classic comedy from GameSampras.
     
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  21. TheNatural

    TheNatural Legend

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    Or you could get out the old VHS tapes of Sampras playing like that.

    This era tennis-watching Nirvana is watching this type of tennis.

    Why doesn't Federer try to Copy Tsonga?:shock:

     
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  22. JoshDragon

    JoshDragon Hall of Fame

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    I fixed your post.:)
     
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  23. Breaker

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    Shut the door on you way out :)
     
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  24. EtePras

    EtePras Banned

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    Why would anyone try a strategy that doesn't work above the 4.0 level? That's like saying nobody can invade North Korea with guns and missiles so why not try sending swordsmen instead.
     
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  25. deltox

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    tsonga has an immense wing span to try to pass at the net, plus he can out jump federer and reach higher shots like some of the not perfect lobs. Tsongas AO performance was my fav of all tennis of all time, but its gonna be hard for someone to repeat that kidna stuff . thats a once per decade performance imo.
     
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  26. Cenc

    Cenc Hall of Fame

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    by that logic sampras is a 3.5 player at most
    congratulations
    u can beat him? (sampras i mean)
     
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  27. deltox

    deltox Hall of Fame

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    seriously? S&V tennis does well in all tourneys at the amateur level. even open tennis at smaller tourneys have alot of S&V players. 5.0s and 5.5 even though they are sparse, have a vast majority of S&V players at least in the southern US area ive seen.
     
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  28. tacou

    tacou Legend

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    how does this conversation recycle itself day after day?

    if anyone thinks sampras would have beaten nadal, fine, think that, but why create ANOTHER thread to tell everyone you think that way?

    time machine's do not exist. Rafa and Sampras are two different generations. compare the two, contrast them, but don't go on and on for 10 more pages that Sampras would have whooped nadal with S&V when there is no way to prove it.
     
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  29. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    He wouldn't eat him alive but Nadal certainly would have plenty of trouble returning Goran's serve (which is a far superior serve to any serve in the game today other than Karlovic's).
     
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  30. markwillplay

    markwillplay Professional

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    I think the argument is that a great serve and volleyer could possibly take Nadal on quick surfaces....no doubt in my mind about that....however, there is not a great serve and volleyer in the game. Now, sure pros can volley, but these guys did not grow up with that game...don't deny this, you are wrong if you do...they didn't. It is not second nature to them and Nadal's game is second nature to him. I think there are a lot of younger folks that think a serve and volleyer can't survive because the game has passed them by. I am not so sure about that, but I am sure that it is not a style that has been taught in the academies in the past 10 years. I know, strings, slower courts, etc... Let me tell you, Stephan Edberg did quite well on clay and he played some very good clay court guys (the kind that only played on clay for goodness sakes) and beat them with his natural game....but that was second nature to him, not forced. He also took some ass whoopins to so of course it was more difficult on clay.

    Chicken or the egg..did serve and volley stop because it is not effective against todays players or is it not effective against todays players because people stopped learning it and relying on it?

    My point, you will never know how a natural serve and volleyer would do against Nadal because I don't think you will ever see it. Why would a baseliner who can beat the majority of pros he faces change his game? So the best baseliner will be #1....and he is.
     
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  31. Swissv2

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    Consider that in the heyday of Serve+Volley, returns and passing shots were not as crazy as nowadays. That is why it was so effective back then.

    Seriously watch videos of passing shots, returns from the late 1990s to today among the top players. Today's players have incredible ability to pass a player at the net, i.e. Djokovic, Federer, and especially Nadal among others.
     
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  32. GameSampras

    GameSampras Banned

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    Well you can thank racket technology for a bit of that.
     
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  33. bolo

    bolo G.O.A.T.

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    obviously not true.
     
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  34. Swissv2

    Swissv2 Hall of Fame

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    Simply watching Nadal's passing shots vs Agassi's passing shots in any videos - he has a crazy better passing game than Agassi.
     
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  35. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    i can only see radek stepanek doing this :)
     
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  36. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    And Stepanek has not been able to beat Nadal in 4 meetings on hard, clay and carpet :) (case closed)
     
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  37. bolo

    bolo G.O.A.T.

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    can get to far more shots + insane shots once he gets there because of the great hands. It's no contest versus agassi.
     
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  38. sh@de

    sh@de Hall of Fame

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    I suppose trying to serve and volley against Nadal would be funny :p. I seriously doubt it'd work; I'd say Nadal is the best passer in the game at the moment.
     
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  39. JamaicanYoute

    JamaicanYoute Rookie

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    I find it funny that so many people forget how great an athlete Sampras is (was).. Actually the only person that reminds me of him is Nadal (and Tsonga @ last years Aussie). Sure, Pete wasn't a scrambler, but that's because their games are different. Anyone who thinks Nadal would crush kill destroy Pete obviously either has bad memory or just started watching tennis.

    He may never have one a French but he beat all comers in his era. Players of all types of games. And no day can anyone compare Stepanek with Sampras. I really have an appreciation for his game, but nothing is comparable other than the fact that they both like to volley. Also, everyone always talks about Rafa's high bouncing ball, what about Pete's low bouncing, relatively flat powerful approach shots, his long ass arms, speed, drop volleys. It would be a great match Nadal/Sampras. \

    I think people don't do it because they're afraid. If I were to play him, no day would I stay at the baseline. To what? lost 50 lbs from being dragged around. Go to net, if you get passed, you get passed. At least make him work for it. That means every shot he'd have to concentrate to precisely place the ball, rather than give it a clearance of 2-3 over the net...
     
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  40. markwillplay

    markwillplay Professional

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    yup........Fish did well for a set but dones not have the talent that a Sampras or edberg, or Rafter had at net. Actually Fish's performance at the open only showed it could be done. Todays equipment can work both ways.
     
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  41. GameSampras

    GameSampras Banned

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    I know players of the past (Mac, Connors, Pete, Andre, Lendl etc) cant match up with the greats of today like Stepanek, Nalbandian, Verdasco, Del Potro etc. Its not even comparable:? Those guys are just too solid
     
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  42. JamaicanYoute

    JamaicanYoute Rookie

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    I had forgotten about the Fish/Nadal match at the Open. Good match. You're correct - it can be done. I think he just got a little complacent and wasn't going for it as much after he won that first set. Same goes for the Federer/Lopez match at the Open '07. He was coming in quite a bit and took the first set. Amazing match for the most part. Set of his life anyway.
     
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  43. JamaicanYoute

    JamaicanYoute Rookie

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    Either that or most people today suck at the net. :roll:

    Seriously, if people back then (as you put it, the 'hey day') came in a lot more, then people back then were more accustomed to hitting passing shots. This would typically mean that they could more consistently hit better passing shots. At least that's whats logically sound in my head. Serving and volleying will always be effective. But only if the person who's doing it knows what they're doing.

    In your example, none of them (for the most part) haven't had to hit any against a good serve and volleyer. Let alone a great one.
     
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  44. Swissv2

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    The very phenomenon of there being very little serve&volley players today has been discussed by many top players. Due to the changes in racquet and string technology as well as changes in the speed of the tennis courts, the return of the ball is much more difficult to handle nowadays. Slower courts allow today's more tuned and conditioned tennis athletes to punish the return. Racquet and string technology allows players a higher rate of spin which enables deeper angles on the passing shot.

    Though it is good to see players experimenting with the serve+volley game every so often, with the changed conditions in today's tennis it will probably be a few more years before we see top players incorporate serve and volley as a winning tactic.
     
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  45. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    You s+v lovers just dont wont let it go.S+V tennis is dead at the pro level period.It is very effective at the amateur level but not with the big boys.

    It worked in the old days because the ground strokes were so much weaker than today.Just watch your old time serve+volley matches+ notice how much slower the ground strokes were.Looks like 4.0 players speed, that is why it was so popular it was hard to hit the ball by anyone.

    They had to come in, because they couldnt hit hard enough to get points from the back court.The racquets+strings have changed the game, plus the athletes are stronger+have better ground strokes than in the past.

    These guys are playing for millions of dollars, do you really think that they wouldnt do anything that would help them win.They dont use s+v that often because it wont work on a consistent basis period.

    I keep hearing about tsonga at the ao, big deal he played out of his mind on one day.What has he done since that? If this s+v is so great why has he not beaten nadal with his net rushing since his miracle day?

    I do think that the pros should come in more often than they do a lot of times, but it wont work if used all the time.It is not effective enough to be used on a regular basis against the top players.How much proof of this do you people need?

    I would suggest that all you s+v lovers watch the old matches if you miss it so bad.Because it is dead+buried+it is not coming back.So watch your old time slo motion tennis,or enjoy the modern game.
     
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  46. Messarger

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    Why is everyone use Tsonga AO'08 as an example? Sure it was a great performance by him but he's not been able to play like that ever since. If beating Nadal with S&V was that easy, he'd be 4-0 h2h instead of 3-1 down. I read somewhere that Tsonga felt on that day as though he was playing a video game where he could place the ball anywhere he liked. It's not like he or anyone else for that matter could choose to be in the zone anytime they like.
     
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  47. 380pistol

    380pistol Banned

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    Wow this thread is hella funny.

    What is the weakest part of Nadal's arsenal?? His return. The problem is nobdy attacks Nadal right from the serve. Sampras, and some others would take nadal out of the point before it starts. Everyone today allows Nadal to get back into the point, despite the fact he doesn't possess a great return and stands so far back on the return.

    If Nadal payed Sampras and started is return games 3 feet behind the service line, that's where he'll remain for the remainder of the point. Nadal is not a great returner (return stroke in isolation), when you have and excellent volleyer like Pete, who will be coming in behind the greatest serve ever, Rafa will hav problems. Yes Rafa at times hits out of his passing shots from crazy positions, but if anyone thinks he's gonna do that to prime Pete for 3/5 sets all I gotta do is laugh.

    Sampras can do something to Nadal that he hasn't seen very much in his carrer. Attack consostently and take him out the point from the onset. All these guys today allow Nadal to get back in the point and Rafa goes to work. But while Nadal would be woring his way back into the point (from 3 feet behind the baseline on his return), Sampras would be ending it.
     
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  48. P_Agony

    P_Agony Banned

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    I agree. However, trying to S&V against Nadal on clay is commiting suicide. On the slower grass at Wimbeldon it's not as effective as it was, so that leaves hard courts as the only logical place to implement that startegy.

    Tsonga, in his match in the AO, has created some great volleys and consistently, thus putting the pressure on Nadal. However, if I recall correctly Tsonga has ever since never beat Nadal again, so this strategy isn't as easy as it sounds.
     
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  49. JamaicanYoute

    JamaicanYoute Rookie

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    That's just funny. The ground strokes back then were weaker? What, are you referring to the '80s and early '90's? Because I've been watching tennis for a very long time, in person and on tv and believe me, they don't hit that much harder if at all than they do today. In fact, I think they hit harder back then because they used less spin then these windshield-wiper strokes the majority of the tour uses. And they had to come in because they couldn't hit hard enough to get points from the back court? Umm yeah. Lol. That's just funny. And in regards to having 'better groundstrokes', we'll see how long people with these funny strokes are able to use them as they get older, compared to a more classic, clean stroke.

    Well the proof is there. Every time someone does what we're saying (and does it well) they make it a great match and usually take the set/points that they do it in. Now, not everyone can do it well, for example I wouldn't expect Agassi to do it and be successful at it. Although that's what it took to beat Moya that day at the French where he went crazy rushing in.

    Once again this is so funny. I suggest you go watch some Rafter, Sampras, Agassi, Krajicek, Kafelnikov matches to see how fast it is. I mean, if it were so 'slow' like you're stating, I doubt they would have slowed the courts, even at Wimbledon. ;)

    Also, we do enjoy the modern game. But that doesn't mean we can ask for some variety.
     
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  50. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Great post!!!
     
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