Is Djokovic an all-time great?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by 5555, Nov 25, 2012.

  1. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    "Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic, Roddick's chief rivals, may very well be the greatest three players to ever play tennis"
    Andre Agassi
    http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/men-action/201209/andre-agassi-us-open-court-champions

    "At the moment Andy is probably playing against three of the top eight players in the history of the game".
    Tim Henman
    http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/wim...y-murray-wont-worry-over-critics-7876173.html

    "1. Federer
    2. Borg
    3. Sampras
    4. McEnroe
    5. Nadal
    6. Djokovic
    7. Agassi
    8. Connors
    9. Lendl
    10. Edberg
    "
    Rod Laver's TOP 10 at Open Era
    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/archives/old-sport-pages/gallery-fn77kxzt-1226250654969?page=12

    "Novak has been phenomenal, winning the Australian Open, Wimbledon and the US Open and getting to the semis at Roland Garros. That puts him right up there alongside the best who have ever played."
    Pat Cash
    http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/879710...he-greatest-tennis-players-ever-says-pat-cash

    "This guy surely now has a genuine claim to be labelled as one of the all-time greats."
    Jonathan Overend
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/16781690


    "It's obviously great any time you beat the world No. 1. I just tried to do some of the same things I did in Australia. I was very close there against one of the greatest players ever.."
    Andy Murray
    http://www.espn.co.uk/tennis/sport/story/139046.html#
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
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  2. Achilles82

    Achilles82 Semi-Pro

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    Novak needs a lot more slams to be even considered as all time great.

    But I don't think competition for No1 was ever this difficult. We literally have four No1 players at the moment.

    Andy Murray who was never No1, in my opinion is better player, and if he retired today, I would considered him greater player then Safin, Hewitt, Rafter, Moya, Rios, Muster, Kafelnikov, Ferrero and some more, and all of those players have been No1
     
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  3. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    How do you define "all-time great?" All those quotes you give seem to be people that are using extreme hyperbole to pump him up, and as such are not giving a completely honest opinion. This is one of those threads that could turn into "but Rod Laver et al said it so it must be true." It's at this point that I'd stop taking former players opinions like the bible like a lot of people around here seem to do. There are levels to this sort of thing IMO. The top level consists of guys like Laver, Nadal, Borg, Sampras and Federer. I would put Djokovic a level (or two) below them for now obviously. So if you only consider the highest of the high all time greats then no Djokovic is not an all time great. This is my opinion as well. He's obviously an accomplished player, but 5 slams (and no career slam) as yet leads me to say no.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
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  4. El Nino

    El Nino Rookie

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    @Achilles82
    Agree that Murray is better than all the guys you mentioned except Hewitt. 2xYear End Number 1, 2xGrand Slams and Masters Cup winner is pretty impressive (may have not been the strongest Era ever but all slams count) . I would say Andy and Lleyton are pretty even so far. Although Murrays likely to have the better Carrer by time he retires.
     
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  5. helloworld

    helloworld Hall of Fame

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    Probably a 3rd tier all-time great, just below Edberg and Becker.
     
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  6. kOaMaster

    kOaMaster Hall of Fame

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    top ten - of course, everything else would be wrong I think.
     
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  7. helloworld

    helloworld Hall of Fame

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    Top 10 based on what? His 5 slams? I doubt it. His career is not over, but now he's definitely not top 10 all-time yet.
     
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  8. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Is it fact?
     
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  9. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Do you claim that they said what they do not believe? If the answer is "Yes" can you provide proof that they said what they do not believe?
     
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  10. kOaMaster

    kOaMaster Hall of Fame

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    on counting the open era only

    otherwise things always get complicated because I just can't compare those players from >50years ago.
     
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  11. Hood_Man

    Hood_Man Legend

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    Depends how long the list is I guess, but anyone who reaches 9 Major finals and wins 5 of them has to be something very special.
     
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  12. Apun94

    Apun94 Semi-Pro

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    Results wise, yes Nole is not one of the all time great, bt thats only becuz his career path is not finished yet. He is considered one of the all time greats simply becz of the level he has been able to play at consistently over the past two years. If he plays his best this man does not have a real weakness. And he has shown that he can play his best consistently. We all know the he is a better version of agassi. Anyone who can thrash prime nadal and does get the better of murray and fed on most occasions is definitely one of the best of all time. No one from the previous eras has come even close to this guy
     
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  13. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    I think he is. I also think he will be a tier one great right up there with Fed by the time his career is over.
     
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  14. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Total nonsense,but I won't waste my time going into why.
     
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  15. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    I'm saying that it is my opinion that they are using extreme hyperbole to pump him up without actually looking at the facts, and therefore it is my opinion that they are not giving an honest opinion. As I said, it depends on what facts you use to determine what an all time great is. If you use peak levels of play only then it is my opinion that he is up there with the best to have ever played the game, but this is much too narrow a view IMO, therefore IMO he is not an all time great yet.

    Using your opinion from another thread, the 4 slams are the most important, and nothing else is considered "big" therefore IMO Djokovic is not an all time great. Meanwhile, it is a fact that Djokovic is not on the same all time level as the 4 guys I mentioned earlier if we consider the most important aspect (in your opinion) which is slams, because 6 slams just to match Laver, Borg, and Nadal among other things is too big of a gap IMHO.

    The fact that you even had to make a thread asking this question should lead you to believe that some people will respond in the negative.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
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  16. helloworld

    helloworld Hall of Fame

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    Wow, these three sentences are all absurd! How can someone possibly write 3 stupid sentences in a row I will never understand. :confused:
     
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  17. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    "Is Djokovic an all-time great?"

    No.

    His career is not over, though, so we'll see when he's done. But should he stop today, he's not even top 20 all-time, maybe not even top 30 (to 5555troll--yes, this is *fact*), and tennis definitely doesn't need 50+ all-time greats, so this is just hyping him up. Business as usual.
     
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  18. Apun94

    Apun94 Semi-Pro

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    Please do explain why...
     
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  19. Apun94

    Apun94 Semi-Pro

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    How are these absurd?? Djokovic is a better version of Agassi, no? How can you say otherwise?
    Hasnt Nadal been beaten 7 straight times in the last 2 years? Hasnt Nole beaten Murray and Fed several times over the last 2 years?
     
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  20. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Not even top 30? You sure?

    So you have Federer, Nadal, Sampras, Agassi, Becker, Edberg, Wilander, Lendl, Borg, McEnroe, Connors (11 players - anyone missing?) - the only players who managed to win at least 5 majors since the official ATP rankings. Before that you had Laver, Emerson, Rosewall, Gonzales, Newcombe, Hoad.

    That's a total of 17 players before considering the 40's or 50's. Could you name all the all-time-great players you would rank higher than Djokovic?
     
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  21. Achilles82

    Achilles82 Semi-Pro

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    I'm talking about strictly who is better player. If Andy played in 2002, he would've been No1 easily. Andy Murray had more points as No3 then Lleyton as No1.
     
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  22. kOaMaster

    kOaMaster Hall of Fame

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    but you know they changed the ranking system?
     
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  23. helloworld

    helloworld Hall of Fame

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    How is Djokovic a better version of Agassi? Their games are as different as day and night. Nadal also owned Djokovic this year. Fed getting beaten by Nole most of the time?? Even old Fed managed to thrashed Djokovic a few times this year. :lol:
     
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  24. sonicare

    sonicare Hall of Fame

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    Can someone name me one thing that agassi does clearly better than djokovic apart from maybe hitting half volleys from the baseline?

    I want something that is clear as night and day. So don't come back with return or backhand cos those are debatable.

    I can point to djokovic's movement which is on a different planet to agassi.

    So, please bring forth your opinions.

    To answer the original question. Djokovic is definitely an all time great. Not a GOAT candidate though. You dont pawn Nadal across 3 surfaces and 7 finals consecutively at his peak without being an all time great. Add to that, his game play when down is stuff of legends.

    What the Djoker has shown is that his peak is as good as anyone. he lacks longevity but hopefully that will come.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
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  25. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Is Agassi an all-time great?
     
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  26. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Good point, but can you name me one (sane) person that would rate Djokovic's career above Agassi's at this point?
     
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  27. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Another good point. I was going to say something like this in my first post in this thread before I edited it.
     
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  28. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    I can name more then one thing.

    Agassi:

    Better hand eye coordination
    Better ROS
    Cleaner swiper at the ball
    Better BH
    About equal FH
    Better on grass
    About the same on slow hard courts
    Better fast hard court player
    Better indoors
    More aggressive from the baseline
    Better ability to take the ball earlier
    Harder hitter
    Better all around fast surface player
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
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  29. kragster

    kragster Hall of Fame

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    He's definitely top 20 in my book but not yet a top 10 player and I say this as a huge fan. I expect him though to get to at least 8-9 and combined with his other records he should easily end up top 10( open era).

    Djoker should end up a tier 2 great. There is a small chance of djokovic either exceeding ( becoming a tier 1 great) or underperforming ( remaining tier 3).
     
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  30. sonicare

    sonicare Hall of Fame

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    Career...no. But IMO djokovic's peak/dominance is better than Agassi's

    LMAO...****ing troll. go back to your cave.
     
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  31. Achilles82

    Achilles82 Semi-Pro

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    Of course I know that. I've considered old ranking system.

    If we take Llaytons results from 2001 which he finished as No1, in todays points he would have around 7300. I've considered points from masters 1000, grand slams, and 3 titles from 250 tour, and Tokyo which is 500.

    Andy Murray has 8000 points, and is world No3
     
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  32. dimeaxe

    dimeaxe Semi-Pro

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    I watched Agassi since early '90s, and I'm sure you don't know what are you talking about.Agassi with better backhand and more aggressive,huh, Novak can create pace from backhand side that Agassi could only dream of.I remember when journalist asked Mardy Fish what's the secret about Novak's great ground strokes.He said he never plays two points the same way, he constantly changes the pace, direction and length of the shots especially of his backhand wing.Novak has much better forehand especially cross court forehand, better serve, ok Agassi had maybe a better ROS but everything else Novak does better, and you didn't mention the movement, it's incomparable.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
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  33. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Hard to say who is better indoors when there are almost no carpet and limited indoor events today, but Djokovic has two YEC now to only 1 for Agassi, and many years at the YEC Agassi didnt factor much, and IIRC he didnt win many indoor tournaments considering how many there were then, so I wouldnt be so sure about that. Otherwise I agree.
     
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  34. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    Taking into account racket technology between today and Andre's time, I fail to see how ANYONE could say Nole is a harder hitter then Andre or cleaner hitter.

    If Andre got to play with the poly strings back in the 90s-00s he may have won 13-14 plus slams. (Nole still only sitting on 5 right now)

    Novak last year had a better FH but thats not the norm for Djoker's FH.. Actually is FH isn't all that great. I fail to see how its any better then Andre's was.'

    Andre was also just flat out better between adapting his game between fast and slow surfaces. (something Nole doesn't have to worry about)
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
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  35. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Nadal is far from his peak,and repeating this bs won't make it so.

    And how much did Djesus get for Nadal when he pawned him? 50 bucks? :lol:
     
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  36. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, and I know how much value you put into that, and Djokovic's career is far from over, but obviously Agassi done something right even if in your opinion he doesn't do one thing clearly better than Djokovic.

    I hate to say this because it's 90's clay, and not all of those are correct IMO, but some of them are.
     
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  37. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    What makes you say that? Nostalgia?
     
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  38. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    Andre was great at passing shots.. Andre with Poly strings which would help him put more zip on the ball (especially off the ROS) and his uncanny ability to take the ball early.

    Even Andre has noted, playing with today's racket technology is almost "cheating" in a way
     
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  39. dimeaxe

    dimeaxe Semi-Pro

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    I didn't say that Novak has great FH, Roger and Rafa r much better in this compartment, fH is bread and butter of their game, but Novak has much more balanced forehand and backhand.When you talk about poly strings you must consider all advantages and disadvantages of the racquets, balls and strings.In 90's they played with much softer balls than we have today.With softer balls and faster surfaces it's much easier to create spin of the ball than today. Today you must hit with full swing to rip the ball and create spin,and thus you need a bit more time to do this.Also, Agassi played with oversize racquet 107in.sq, and Novak plays with 98 in.sq, so Agassi played with bigger sweet spot than Novak:)You didn't mention speed of both players, I remember Mats Wilander saying that Novak looks like Agassi game wise, but he's like twice as fast as Agassi...
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
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  40. tudwell

    tudwell Hall of Fame

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    The real question is - who is better at net, Djokovic or Agassi?
     
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  41. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Depends on your definition of an all-time tennis great bud I'd say that at the very least he's getting there.

    I expect him to win career slam (FO) at some point, finish a few more years #1, get to 8-9 slams (maybe more, who knows) and that coupled with his amazing level of play in 2011 (one of the highest I've ever seen) is gonna be enough for him to be remembered as one heck of a tennis player.
     
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  42. dimeaxe

    dimeaxe Semi-Pro

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    Novak is still young, I think it's unfair to judge him now, considering that he has many years of great tennis in front of him.
     
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  43. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    In my opinion he definitely is. Especially when it comes to how consistent he is and his peak form is only matched by a few.
     
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  44. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    If he isn't one already then he's pretty damn close.
     
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  45. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    He is an all time great but a third tier
     
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  46. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    Yea third tier is fair to Nole.. Maybe 4th (depending on how you group them). Hes in there with Becker, Edberg, Mac, etc.. Below Andre.

    Nole is somewhere in the top 20 some all time.
     
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  47. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Peak level wise he's definately an all time great. In a couple of years time I expect him to be firmly in the second tier bellow the likes of Sampras, Federer, Laver etc...
     
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  48. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    I think Djokovic's 2011 season alone marks him out as an all-time great. If he had never hit another tennis ball after that, it should be sufficient IMO.

    After all, what tennis player, who is not thought of as an all-time great, has ever achieved a season remotely like that?
     
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  49. rafafan20

    rafafan20 Professional

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    getting there
     
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  50. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    By the time it's all said and done Djokovic could very well have 10+ majors, in which case he'll be high up on the list of tennis legends. Currently he's still an all time great (Edberg-Hoad level)
     
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