Is Djokovic an all-time great?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by 5555, Nov 25, 2012.

  1. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Nah, not top 30 is obviously pushing it, but I'd say around top 20-top 25 at the moment.

    Off the top of my head, you can also add the following to your list: Tilden, Budge, Cochet, Perry, maybe even Lacoste and Renshaw (William).

    So, of course, eras are different and so on, but going by titles and records alone, *at the moment*, I would rank Djokovic among the tier four of greats. If being top 20/25 all-time qualifies as being an all-time great for you, then by all means, say he is. I don't agree, though, as the more all-time greats you have, the less the "all-time great" distinction is meaningful, but that's a matter of personal preference.

    And, once again, he's (probably) far from being done, so judging his career at this point isn't really fair to him.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
    #51
  2. President

    President Legend

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    He will definitely get there at some point, I see him easily reaching the Lendl category of player or maybe even higher, depending on how the next few years go. Right now I would say he is around McEnroe, a little worse but better than Becker and Edberg.
     
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  3. BauerAlmeida

    BauerAlmeida Semi-Pro

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    Maybe not yet, but he'll be up there for sure. He will surpass Becker, Edberg and Wilander in the next few years.

    He will end up with Agassi, Connors and Mc I think. He will have more slams than them, but Connors will have more weeks at 1 probably.

    Can he go to a Nadal/Borg career? Maybe, but I don't think so. Depends on the level Murra, Nadal or Del Potro show in the next few years. If some young talent appears and for how long Federer is at the top.
     
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  4. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    Not yet he isn't.
     
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  5. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    He IS an all-time great. Just because he hasn't won 17 majors doesn't mean he isn't. If some people consider Courier an all-time great, then Djoker certainly deserves to be called one. He has surpassed many members of the tennis hall of fame already.
     
    #55
  6. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    I dont think anyone considers Courier an all time great even on a smaller scale, a great of his era yes, but not an all time great. Becker and Edberg level is most peoples cut off for an all time great. I consider Djokovic about on par with both at this point so yes he could already qualify as a tier 4 all time great or so. He will probably be a tier 2 all time great by careers end, or atleast will if he doesnt fall off.
     
    #56
  7. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Currently 10th in Open era

    I think he is 10th in the Open Era (so obviously lower down in the all time rankings). He is a great player though and will climb up the ladder considerably by the end of his career.

    I rank players in the open era on their Slams Wins, Season end championship wins, Slam finals made and Master 1000 equivalents won. That levels the playing field, so that small inconsequential tournaments are left out. Then weight it using the currently used ATP points system - 2000 points for Slam win, 1400 points for Season end championship win (average between unbeaten winner and winner who lost one round robin match), 1200 points for Slam Finalist and 1000 points for Masters 1000 equivalent wins. That seems an objective way to compare. On that basis Djokovic is sitting at 10th in the Open era currently (behind Federer, Lendl, Sampras, Nadal, McEnroe, Borg, Connors, Agassi, Becker and ahead of Edberg and Wilander).

    Here is the thread with the weighted Open era rankings:

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=445573
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
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  8. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

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    This top 10 list is an absolute joke, if Djoker is on it at all, he's certainly 10, no way is he above any of those guys.
     
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  9. Love Anet

    Love Anet New User

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    Do you think the slower court surfaces come into the equation? I feel someone like Edberg, as good as he was, could possibly struggle because of the slower court surfaces these days.
     
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  10. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Agree. No way Laver was serious (or sober) when he made that list. McEnroe 5 ranks ahead of Lendl? Djokovic ahead of Lendl, Connors, Agassi, etc. with 4 GS only to his name? (list was made at the very beginning of the year) Please. :roll:
     
    #60
  11. Apun94

    Apun94 Semi-Pro

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    Hahahahaha, thats a good one! 8 Majors, OG, Golden Slam among ther stuff. Yeah Agassi was crap...
     
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  12. Apun94

    Apun94 Semi-Pro

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    Please dont kid yourself. You are rating Agassi way too high. If Agassi was better than Nole 2.0 then why did he continuously get beaten by Fed? Nole 2.0 can hang with prime Fed. Anybody disagreeing with that clearly has some bias issues.
    Djokovic:(2.0)
    Djokovic has a better BH
    Better on slow hard courts
    About equal on fast hard courts(count the no of times he reaches the semis of USO)
    Can also hit the ball as hard as anybody (please see Fed-Nole USO'11 SF), though plays with more spin, but thats just got to do with the nature of the game these days. Plus just because Agassi hits harder doesnt mean he is a better player.
    Has more consistency
    Definitely better at clay...
     
    #62
  13. Apun94

    Apun94 Semi-Pro

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    You are definitely right. But the thing is that there is no way we can know how he would have fared in fast conditions. We can predict but we cant know for sure simply because these players are so good at adapting their games to different surfaces. Plus Nole is a very good player even on today's indoor courts. I mean he just went undefeated at the WTF, beating Fed straught sets...
     
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  14. TheNatural

    TheNatural Legend

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    Novak is one of the Poly goats. He is currently 3rd on the poly goat list.
     
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  15. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Well, opinion is opinion. You have no proof that their opinion is not honest.

    Why did you say that?

    Have got proof it's a fact?

    Is it a fact?

    Have you proof Laver was not honest and sober when he made that list?
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
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  16. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Ridiculous comparision. Agassi was 33-35 when he played a prime Federer, and with a really bad back condition to boot. Djokovic will probably be retired at that age, never mind playing his best tennis. As for Djokovic 2.0 hanging with prime Federer, while I think that is quite possible, it is unproven since Djokovic 2.0 never played prime Federer. One could easily say the Agassi of 95 or 99 could hang with prime Federer too if they wish, it too cant be proven (but all the sets he won as a hobbly mid 30s man would indicate yes, atleast on a hard court).
     
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  17. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    LOL yeah they probably came to him during his 70th birthday party or something when he was drinking up a storm and asked him to make his list for a joke, while someone helped him hold the pen.
     
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  18. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    Agassi has a FO title and two other finals :D
     
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  19. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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    I think he is one of the greatest already, I expect many more great achievements from him in the future, I will be very happy if he ends his career with 10 GS and 20 masters tournaments.
     
    #69
  20. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    One of the greatest... behind Becker.
     
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  21. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

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    Yep, he lacks the slams or weeks at #1 to be higher than anyone on that list.
     
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  22. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    hoodjem never said he was crap. He simply posted a valid (IMO) question about Agassi being an all time great. There is a big difference between being a great player and an all time great IMO, and I could argue that Agassi is not an all time great. All time greats to me are guys like Federer, Nadal, Laver, Borg, Sampras etc.... It's a relatively small list, and I wouldn't put Agassi on my list to be quite honest with you, and if I did he'd be at or near the bottom. Hence the reason that as of today I don't consider Djokovic an all time great. He is one of the better player in tennis history, but he is not an all time great.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
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  23. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree. I think it would've been a nice rivalry. However by this logic I could say that prime Federer would mop the floor with Djokovic 2.0 all things considered.
     
    #73
  24. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    1. Federer is nowhere near as old as Agassi was when playing Federer.

    2. Your last claim is also unlikely considering Djokovic was already starting to give Federer a tough time in late 2007 when Federer was in his prime and Djokovic was nowhere near his.
     
    #74
  25. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    I wouldn't say nowhere near. If Federer cuts back on his schedule to the extent Agassi did then I don't see any reason that he couldn't trouble prime Djokovic from time to time the way Agassi did prime Federer. His decline is pretty gradual as it is. It's hard to compare anyhow because the results of their matches are a little inconsistent, but I guess this is true of any H2H. Federer's first win over Agassi was 7-6 in the third, and then he smoked him just a few days later. He also beat him relatively easily at the AO and Miami, Andre's best courts, while at the USO he had a hell of a time with Andre, which is kind of backwards considering that Federer supposedly would have an advantage over Andre there.

    We'll just have to agree to disagree on my second point. "Mop the floor" is probably too strong a choice of words, but given that he came within a point of beating Djokovic at 2 slams in 2011, and has since beaten him at Wimbledon and Cincinnati, I hold my opinion. If you're going to use 2007, I'll use 2011 :).
     
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  26. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    What about level of competition? Can you prove that when level of competition is taken into account Connors is greater player than Djokovic? If you can not prove it, your statement is not a fact.


    [​IMG]

    Have you got proof that Laver was not honest or sober when he made that list?
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
    #76
  27. djokovic2008

    djokovic2008 Hall of Fame

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    Wow lol it must be comedy hour because thats hilarious, seriously Djoker 2.0 could hang with any player past or present.
     
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  28. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Would Agassi have won FO if he played against 26 year old Nadal instead of Medvedev? Would Agassi have reached finals at FO if he played against 21/22 year old Nadal in semifinals instead of Gomez and Courier?
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
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  29. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    woulda coulda shoulda...

    would Djokovic have won 3 majors in 2011 had Federer been 25? Yes, Agassi probably would have beaten a 26 year old Nadal on clay and I have no doubt that a peak Federer would have beaten him easily as well. 21/22 year-old Nadal on clay, I don't think so. In fact, I can't think of anyone that could have beaten him when he was at that age.


    Look, I think Djokovic is already an all-time great but that doesn't mean I would put him above AA at this moment.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
    #79
  30. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    I don't think Agassi would have been able to beat even 26 year old Nadal. I think he could have taken him to four or five sets though, so his "level" is relative to how Djokovic did against him.
     
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  31. helloworld

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    Before the back problem, Agassi used to thrashed Fed easily. By the time Federer reached his prime, Agassi was already 34-35 years old with a severe back problem. It's no surprise that prime Federer could beat old man Agassi. Prime Agassi though would have been a bad match up for Federer.
     
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  32. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Come back to me when you learn comprehension. I've already admitted that that was a strong choice of words, plus I was using NA's logic, so that's probably why it's incredibly hilarious.
     
    #82
  33. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    Djokovic 2.0 is on the same playing field as prime Federer, he just has to contend with more competition; I.E the top four. Federer's competition just wasn't the same as Djokovic's competition.
     
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  34. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    He is way above a Courier

    He is way below a Federer, Sampras, or Laver

    He is marginally below a Nadal, or Borg

    He is slightly below a Agassi, McEnroe, Lendl
     
    #84
  35. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

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    Yeah I can prove it, Borg, McEnroe, Lendl are all time greats that he had to contend with, FACT.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYqRv9CC--Q
     
    #85
  36. DolgoSantoro

    DolgoSantoro Professional

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    He might need some more achievements to cement it but I'll say yes. His peak level of play was as good or better than many all time greats.
     
    #86
  37. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Results wise; no.
    Level wise; yes.
     
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  38. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    What exactly is your distinction between marginally and slighty?

    Nadal has 2x the slams!
     
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  39. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    He should check the second box if he can consistently hold a high playing level, but we can see from 2012 that he can't quite stay at that level for more than a season or two.
     
    #89
  40. DropShotArtist

    DropShotArtist Banned

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    Well his 2.0 version owns Nadal, an 11 slam winner, so yes.
     
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  41. papertank

    papertank Hall of Fame

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    I think he's on the Becker/Edberg/Wilander tier right now. Still below Agassi, Lendl, McEnroe, etc. but greater than the likes of Courier
     
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  42. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Ah the old competition argument hey? Besides the fact that I think it's complete BS lets look at it. First, explain to me how Roddick has a winning H2H over him. Granted he didn't play him in 2011, but Roddick beat him in 3 or 4 matches total in 2009 and 2010. That's includes a win at the Aussie of all places. They also played a tight match at the USO in 2008. Then explain to me how an old Hewitt with too many operations to count can take sets off the guy at the Olympics, and the AO. I would break it down like this.

    IMO: AO: Advantage Djokovic 2.0 if played on plexicushion, advantage prime Federer if played on rebound ace. Final verdict: 50/50

    FO: Slight edge to prime Fed

    W: Huge edge to prime Fed

    USO: Somewhere in between his advantages at W and the FO.

    That's 3 of the 4 slams I'd give to Fed with a split at the other one. I understand that level wise in 2011 Djokovic was nuts, but old Fed was hanging with him.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
    #92
  43. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    So basically Federer and Nadal got their butts whipped in Masters and Slams numerous times by a non-great player? :-?
    Wow! Imagine if they had to play great players? :lol:
     
    #93
  44. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Yea against Nadal 1.5! Nadal played some of his worst clay court tennis in 2011 and was somewhat burned out overall after his great 2010 -- much like Nole was this year vs 2011...
     
    #94
  45. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Is there some fact in there, or is this just a cartload of opinion? :roll:
     
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  46. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Have you got proof he wouldn't have?
     
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  47. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    Neither could Nadal.

    After a great 2008, I truly believe that had Nadal stayed healty in 2009, he could have picked at least 2 majors.

    I think Djokovic was exhausted in 2012, thus only 1 major. The same thing happened with Nadal in 2011, after that great 2010. Only Federer is superhuman.
     
    #97
  48. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Nadal was as consistant as he's ever been last year, 2011 could have been another 2010 had it not been for Djokovic.
     
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  49. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    oh you mean because he reached all those finals? can we say Djokovic is better this year on clay because he reached the FO finals?
     
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  50. Fedex

    Fedex Hall of Fame

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    Djokovic's longevity is the main reason for his success.
    He went through two hard 5 setters against Murray and Nadal back to back to win the AO 2011! And at USO 2012, Murray had to run him ragged for 5 mostly gruelling sets for the win.
    You have to practically half kill the guy just to have a chance.
    He is tennis' answer to the Duracell Bunny.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012

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