Is Djokovic an all-time great?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by 5555, Nov 25, 2012.

  1. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    By rights, if I was really strict in my placing, and said for example that only tier 1 players are "all time greats" then my list wouldn't even include Connors and maybe not even Lendl. That's as far as I would ever cut it though. Although I can imagine the ****storm that would create. Vero lost it last time after all. It depends on how you define "all time great." I'd say I've said that at least 3 times in this thread. Close is only good in horseshoes and hand grenades.
     
  2. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Is it a fact?

    Can you provide reasoning as to why my argumentation on 12-26-2012 was wrong?

    Is it a fact?

    I think Djokovic is an all-time great. He won 5 slams (fact) and was No. 1 for 2011 and 2012 (fact).

    Laver is innocent until proven guilty. Can you can prove that he was not sober or serious at that time?

    You found 2 such posts, but I've made 720 posts. That's less than 1% which is rare indeed.

    I'm innocent until proven guilty. Can you prove that I did it on purpose?

    Fact.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2013
  3. Fiji

    Fiji Hall of Fame

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    Yes he is. At least 8 slams are possible and the likes of Lendl, Agassi and Connors are all time greats.
     
  4. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Can you provide reasoning as to why my argumentation on 12-26-2012 was wrong?

    Also, can you provide argument as to why my reasoning on 01-05-2015 was wrong?
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  5. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Can you prove that these two "facts" are enough to be an all-time great?

    Oh, and only the first one is a fact, btw. The second is partly a flight of fancy, as he was #1 for parts of 2011 and 2012 "only". Once again, what you're stating as "fact" is nothing but an exageration of the truth (which is better than misquoting people on purpose, I'll grant you that, so some might think you are on the right track).
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  6. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Prove what you said first, and then we'll see.
     
  7. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Innocent/guilty of what? Not being serious? As if that was a crime? You CANNOT be serious.

    You still can't understand what you're harping all the time, do you? You've got the negative view, time to troll yourself.
     
  8. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    I'm curious how many times posters have posted on this useless thread.


    1. 5555 36
    2. merlinpinpin 29
    3. Steve0904 21
    4. jokinla 17
    5. NadalAgassi 15
    6. Povl Carstensen 14
    7. Sabratha 12
    8. Apun94 12
    9. The-Champ 12
    10. DropShotArtist 10


    BTW, these numbers are FACT, so don't ask me to prove anything.
     
  9. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    That they are fact is just your opinion.
     
  10. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Have you been taking lesson from 5555 ?
    :)
     
  11. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Is it a fact?

    I do not have to prove it, because my statement is just a opinion. I would have put burden of proof on myself if I made allegation of fact but it's not the case here.

    I did not say that Novak was No. 1 continuously from the beginning of 2011 until the end of 2012. I said he was No. 1 for 2011 and 2012 http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2012/11/Features/Djokovic-To-Finish-Year-End-World-No-1.aspx

    Do not put words in my mouth.

    Can you provide reasoning as to why my argumentation on 12-26-2012 was wrong?

    Also, can you provide argument as to why my reasoning on 01-05-2013 was wrong?

    If someone is guilty of something, it does not mean they commited a criminal offense. There are different types of offenses (see Collins dictionary for the definition of words "guilty" and "offense" http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/guilty?showCookiePolicy=true http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/offense?showCookiePolicy=true). If Laver was not serious when he made that list, he said something that is a lie because he said something he does not believe. If he lied, it's a offense ie breach of a custom (good manners).

    So, can you prove that Laver is guilty?

    You stated that Laver is guilty. That's a positive view.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2013
  12. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Do me a favor. When the AO get started on Monday, could you please let this thread die. I mean pretty please....
     
  13. FlamEnemY

    FlamEnemY Hall of Fame

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    Such a bunch of useless philosophers you guys are.
     
  14. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Is that a fact? Or merely your opinion?
     
  15. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    merlinpinpin, were the posts on 01-07-2013 your last-ditch defense?
     
  16. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Is that a question or a rhetorical?
     
  17. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    merlinpinpin, I'm going to ask you just one more time: were the posts on 01-07-2013 your last-ditch defense?

    Question.
     
  18. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    That's it. merlinpinpin lost yet another argument.
     
  19. FlamEnemY

    FlamEnemY Hall of Fame

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    Both.

    Ten Schrödinger's cats.
     
  20. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Prove it. :)
     
  21. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Can you provide reasoning as to why my argumentation on 01-05-2013 and 01-11-2013 was wrong?
     
  22. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    The first of May 2013? The first of November 2013? Doc, we've gone back to the future!
     
  23. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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  24. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    BeHappy, can you provide counterargument?
     
  25. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    5555 is basically saying that greatness is a matter of opinion, because of the fact that "experts" disagree on what constitute greatness. Therefore it is a valid argument to say that Donald Young is as great as Andre Agassi according to 5555's impenetrable logic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  26. Surecatch

    Surecatch Semi-Pro

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    Yes. To me it is obvious that he is at least one of the best players of all-time, career achievements aside. And by the time he's done, he's going to have several more slam victories, most likely...probably between 9-12 if not more. As much as I dislike him, he's that good.
     
  27. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    The-Champ claims that greatness in not a matter of opinion. According to him it's a fact that Ivan Lendl is greater player than Pancho Gonzales or vice versa.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
  28. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    BeHappy, I'm going to ask you just one more time: can you provide counterargument?
     
  29. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Wow, 5555, 5 years since you registered on TW and you still can't tell the difference between a fact and opinion.
     
  30. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    He is the only multi slam winner at the moment (Murray could join him) whilst Federer and Nadal started their dominance. Just to be able to take them on and beat them both in 3 out of the 4 slams makes him an all time great in my eyes. My opinion, of course! :)
     
  31. TheNatural

    TheNatural Legend

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    No, because he hasn't won enough slams yet and because he has only been great for a few years. He has to be great for more than a couple of years to be an all time great. In a few years time we will be in a better position to re-asses.
     
  32. xan

    xan Professional

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    is your opinion a fact, or opinion??
     
  33. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    It is a fact that many people have the opinion that it is unpleasant when some people go overboard and act unreasonable.
     
  34. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    This thread can only die when Nole loses, otherwise the nonsense will persist.
     
  35. above bored

    above bored Semi-Pro

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    Agassi was a more aggressive and better ball striker than Djokovic, off both wings.

    What separates Djokovic as a player is his consistency, movement and defensive ability. His ball striking is not as good as Agassi's.
     
  36. above bored

    above bored Semi-Pro

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    You cannot really judge level of play objectively across eras because different eras restrict the level achievable. No player today would be playing as they do if they were playing 10 or 20 years ago. Each era always benefits from the ground work laid down prior to their own time.

    You can only really compare level based on the degree to which each player has been able to separate themselves from their peers within their own time.
     
  37. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    5555 needs to explain why Dolgopolov is as great as Federer.

    If 5555 cannot explain this, then he has lost this debate.
     
  38. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Is this a factual opinion, or an opinionated fact? :D
     
  39. ruariatp

    ruariatp New User

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    Not yet...once he has the french. but im not convinced his stamina is totally natural..
     
  40. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    1. BeHappy lost the argument.

    2. The-Champ will lose the argument too if he does not explain why tennis experts disagree who is greater between Ivan Lendl and Pancho Gonzales if the criteria for greatness is not a matter of opinion.

    You agree with The-Champ that criteria for greatness is not a matter of opinion?
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
  41. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    Djokovic is not an all-time great. This is a fact.
     
  42. librarysteg

    librarysteg Hall of Fame

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    My answer would be not yet, but he might still become one. We'll have to wait another 5-10 years to know for sure. At this point, I think it could go either way.
     
  43. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    It isnt nonsense. What is your definition of an all time great. Since Becker, Edberg, and Wilander are all time greats (and most think they are) then Djokovic should be called one too.
     
  44. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    I'm not talking about Nole is either one of all time great or not, but this thread turns out to be an ego contest. Every opinions must provide facts/proven to have any credibility. Rofl
     
  45. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    if it's a matter of opinion then answer this; where are the experts that claim Donald Young is just as great as Federer? If you can't answer this, you have lost the argument.
     
  46. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

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    55555555555555555555 has lost the argument.
     
  47. beast of mallorca

    beast of mallorca Legend

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    5555 can not lose a factual opinion of a fact. He is that opinionated, esp for factual opinions for certain tennis facts.And thjat's my humble opinion for this fact.
     
  48. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    You agree with The-Champ that criteria for greatness is not a matter of opinion?

    Can you prove it's a fact?

    You failed to answer why tennis experts disagree who is greater player between Ivan Lendl and Pancho Gonzales. Tennis experts disagree who is greater between Lendl and Gonzales because they can not agree what should be criteria for greatness. It's logic.

    You lost the argument.

    No, I have not.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
  49. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    Can you prove it's not?
     
  50. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

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    Is that a fact or your opinion.
     

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