Is Doping really the only way...........

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by ALL IN, Jan 22, 2013.

  1. ALL IN

    ALL IN Rookie

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    To play consecutive long tennis matches? To those that keep bringing up the "doping" argument please take note that we are overwhelmed with speculation and not a single shred of evidence. When you uncover that evidence, please share. Until then, please enjoy what these remarkable athletes are doing give credit to the sacrifice and hard work they put in.
    As far as Lance and cycling goes, it has been known for a long time and confirmed with countless firsthand accounts, worldwide, that most of the peloton was doping. I'm surprised there weren't more blowouts from the trail of used needles and syringes left up and down the French roads.
     
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  2. Elite

    Elite Semi-Pro

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    See, I, personally, will never know this for sure. I don't play tennis on a professional level and I sure as hell haven't played a competitive five set match before. HOWEVER, it certainly takes something remarkable to naturally recover after such a match. Then again, my knowledge on recovering techniques and whatnot is rather slim.
     
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  3. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    Yes... The same way its ONLY possible to dominate grueling events like the Tour De France's and never get tired. The human body isn't designed NOT to get tired.

    Even Lance went on record saying it wasn't possible. To be at a top physical level round after round all year playing the way these guys do, is NOT possible without some extra boost. Its only normal to have a physical let up..

    Years ago you could get away with it. Matches didn't consist of 20-70 shot rallies round after round on SLOW conditions all year. You attacked, put the opponent on his toes and came in for the kill.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
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  4. ALL IN

    ALL IN Rookie

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    So you think that playing a tennis match two days after playing a five set match is as or more demanding than the Tour De France? What dope are you on?
     
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  5. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    I do..

    These guys do it year after year, tournament after tournament round after round . All year long. With very little of a break.

    How the hell can they do it without "help?" Or without totally breaking down physically at some point? (Nadal did of course but he had had physical issues before he event began his tennis career)

    They can play a 5-6 hour match and the next or two, its like they didn't have a 5-6 match a day or two before. Well if you're "normal" and not on something, you're gonna really feel that 5-6 hour match a day or two later. I dont care who you are. And you're level is going to be down quite a bit. Especially when 90 percent is consistent of 20-30 shot rallies
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
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  6. norbac

    norbac Legend

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    In Djokovic's case,I think the fact that his fitness was so suspect in the past creates more controversy.....
     
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  7. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    What you call "known for a long time" in the second bolded part, at the end of the day was nothing more than a lot of - speculation! There were no failed tests, no evidence other than hearsay and "he said, she said" attributed to jealousy. In fact, most of what the French cyclists were complaining about was dismissed as pure jealousy and hatred.

    Today it seems everyone wants to forget all the denial, character assassination of doping accusers and call it "known for a long time". In fact, until Lance himself did not make the Oprah appearance, people were still not willing to believe the USADA! Imagine that, people accusing their country's own agency of constructing a false case against Armstrong.

    Yes, I agree there are no personal accounts in tennis like the teammates who ratted out Lance, but then it's not necessary doping has to be committed with the same brazenness that Lance did (risking too much by involving a lot of people then threatening retribution) for folks to have doubts.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
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  8. dyldore

    dyldore Rookie

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    K, so djokovic will be suspended shortly.
     
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  9. jman32

    jman32 Rookie

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    For what it is worth, I know a coach that teaches at a very high level. I was just having this same can conversation with him. He was positive that pros today have no choice but to take drugs if they want to perform at the highest level match after match.

    Take djok's five setter with Stan, is it possible to not be wiped out from that for several days, let alone being able to play tennis at the highest level

    While i want to believe that they are superhuman, :neutral:I have to agree, they must all be on something.
     
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  10. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    Would you care to share how you know that it isn't possible?.

    Lance said it wasn't possible where doping was rampant.

    So, all there is when it comes to tennis is speculation.
     
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  11. Defcon

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    Pretty much all top cyclists are on drugs. Which is why their times are very comparable and the field is wide open.

    There are maybe 2-3 guys total who can do what Djoker and Rafa do, so obviously we have to suspect them, esp given how they became like this overnight.
     
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  12. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    If it weren't for the doubts and speculation, Lance would never have been investigated, would he?

    It's healthy to keep a critical eye on amazing feats of physical recovery and comebacks. Unfortunately we live in a world where it's happened time and again that those we called superhuman turned out to be mere greedy humans.
     
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  13. R.Federer

    R.Federer Semi-Pro

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    cvac aint doping if anyone its ferrer whos doping in the most obvious way at 30 and all of a sudden getting to semis etc and playing out of his mind which he hasnt done for most of his career at his age he aint no federer lol ;)
     
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  14. Elite

    Elite Semi-Pro

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    Wait, what? Ferrer's game hasn't just seamlessly improved overnight. We've seen gradual improvement over 5-6 years. Besides, in most tournaments, the only reason why Ferrer made a GS SF is because one of the top four players (in the 2010 AO and 2012 USO's case, Nadal), wasn't involved in the tournament or had to withdraw because of injury. Stop discarding the facts. If Nadal participated healthy at this year's AO, the final four would be the top four. Ferrer is only making the SF because he is the next best player on tour behind Djokovic, Federer, Murray and Nadal. And to be fair, if Djokovic, Federer and Murray participated at Paris last year, Ferrer wouldn't have won his first Masters title.
     
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  15. R.Federer

    R.Federer Semi-Pro

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    sorry but what i said was suppose to be just abit of fun and i agree with you ferrer has improved over the years im just fed up of the doping ideas on this board that come up daily now since the lance incident and if anyone does something amazing its automatically because of doping and not hard work, and ferrer is a top player and is a lesson to everyone if your work hard you get rewarded
     
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  16. Elite

    Elite Semi-Pro

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    Ah, okay, I see. The doping allegations are a bit hectic and over-the-top, but you can't blame the tennis world for thinking this way.
     
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  17. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    There was a lot more to go by in order to have any doubts in cycling than there's in tennis.
     
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  18. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    Seconded. It's getting ridiculous.
     
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  19. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    And don't forget nicknames. Damning nicknames.

    CVAC / EPOvac Dopovic
    HGHael Nadal
    EPOtr Korda
    Mariano Roida
    Igjuicio Truyol
    Wayne Roidesnik
    Juicy Mac
     
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  20. nikdom

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    Whats your point? There was very little going on in the case of Marion Jones. If it weren't for the Balco investigation, she would never have been caught.

    Your pov is simply colored by the accusations against Nadal.
     
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  21. dyldore

    dyldore Rookie

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    Ok...so there should be investigations into Nadal/Djokovic/whoever, looking for whether or not they are doping. Until then we don't know and speculating based on how long they can play tennis is retarded.
     
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  22. The_Order

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    Federer's so good he can beat a doping Novak on clay.
     
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  23. Defcon

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    If people had stopped speculating about Lance he'd never have been caught. The longer they refuse to test these 2 guys the stronger the doubts will get.
     
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  24. dyldore

    dyldore Rookie

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    It's one thing to say evidence should be gathered because a player has a competitive edge. It's another thing to say that their competitive edge is evidence, as many people here are saying.

    It's ridiculous to look at a top ranked athlete in any sport and say that their position at the top is evidence for anything other than that they are better than the rest, until proven otherwise.
     
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  25. zebedee

    zebedee New User

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    USADA shows that cheats will only ever get exposed through hard grind investigative work, not testing. Armstrong passed all his tests as tennis players do.

    Djokovic is now under the spotlight but he's not the only one at it. He puts it down to secret recovery techniques. This will only get the press even more interested now.

    It's only a matter of time before the blood passport is brought into tennis. The regulatory authorities know what's going on.
     
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  26. Crisstti

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    Couldn't agree more. Especially the bolded.

    My point is, not because the speculation about some people was true, it follows that (baseless) speculation about others is. That's just a fallacy.
     
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  27. Calor1

    Calor1 New User

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    Could all those who are so sure Djoko, Rafa, ... are doping please enlighten me as to what they are using. Or what you think they are using.
     
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  28. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    Between Agassi's story of the legal pad self-excuse for testing positive for meth (the ATP accepted it without a question because he was $ to them) and the knowledge the Armstrong never tested positive for EPDs, my faith in the cleanliness of tennis is kaput. You know, my heart wants to believe Federer is the exception, but given the "normalcy" of EPDs in sports, my head says no. It's really a shame for all the players who aren't doping.

    And as much heat as Noah took for his comments regarding the Spanish players, he probably was right. A couple of friends of mine are really into cycling and competitive cycling (and tennis). Last weekend, they both said that looking at Ferrer, as much as they like him, there's not one doubt in either of their minds that he's not doping. They went on to say the same thing Noah did, the Spaniards are too muscled and the recovery too quick. And, Spain has a doctor (according to them) who is known as the biggest doper in sports.

    If it is true and all the EPD stuff is going on, what does it say about the true level of tennis. It's all a sham.
     
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  29. vernonbc

    vernonbc Hall of Fame

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    Boy, you'll twist anything to come up with accusations against Rafa. You can maybe say this about Novak (although it would be a sketchy accusation since being #3 in the world is pretty darned impressive) but Rafa sure as hell didn't develop anything overnight. He's been playing the same style of tennis since he was about 8 years old and even in his first pro matches when he was 15 and 16 he was noted for his never say die defensive style. He was never a skinny kid who suddenly got good at tennis - he was ranked in the top 100 when he was 16 years old. So Rafa's been doping since his early teen years? Is that why he was a teenaged phenom? Get real.

    Amen. And you will also find that invariably those at the top work harder than anyone else too.
     
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  30. eliza

    eliza Rookie

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    I also am very disturbed at all these accusations made by people against Nadal. At first I thought "envy" but probably is somthing more complicated. I can tell you that Nadal has been playing with almost the same intensity since he touched the court of his first tourney. Surely, some could reply he could have been using something since his childhood.....But, on WTA, cannot we claim the same for the Williams?


    how ridicolous those comments on Spaniards, and "a doctor".....1) they are normally muscular, coming from fishermen traditions 2) there are many "doctors"all over the world...
     
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  31. SwankPeRFection

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    Some guys also train pretty hard too and not just training, but do stuff the hard way while in tournaments to maintain it. I heard one time that Ferrer jogs to the courts from where he's staying during tournaments, plays his matches, and then jogs back home. The thing is, he's always played the way he does and he's always hovered around the same point in his performances, so it's not that hard to believe that he's probably just doing his duties as an athlete. Then there are others who all of a sudden have a burst of capability and then within just a couple of months start dominating the field when they haven't been able to do it in years before. Are we to believe they're just now finally coming into form? Are we to believe that whatever new coach or trainer they've picked up in their camp was the secret miracle to their success?

    Novak couldn't run around without sucking air through an inhaler for more than 3 games before just a couple of years ago. Now all of a sudden he's wearing a superman outfit? Oh, but it was all just the gluten causing it. Gimme a break!
     
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  32. VaporDude95

    VaporDude95 New User

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    I would be disgusted if one of the top players is caught doping. I just have so much respect for them and all the work they put in.
     
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  33. mistik

    mistik Hall of Fame

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    I think the older players like Federer and Serena and some other players like Ferrer is doing so well has to be watched very carefully as well.I am 29 years old and ı am not feeling as good as when ı was 20.The last 5 years ı stopped smoking and ı go the gym as well.I just dont understand how is it possible for this players who passed 30 years old mark still capable of playing some great tennis week in weak out just like they are youngster.For me this issue is also as fishy as long matches.
    I understand people questioning the likes of Nadal and Djokovic, which is pretty normal but what about questioning older players like Federer ??
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
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  34. Nickzor

    Nickzor Semi-Pro

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    I am in no way a pro tennis player, but after almost a decade of playing I can at least say without trying to sound cocky that I am a good player, I can serve like the pros (not as fast but almost as consistent) and have fairly strong groundstrokes.

    For what it's worth I play tennis almost all year round, ive spent up to two weeks at a time playing tennis 5 hours a day straight, Most of the time I'll leave home without even eating a thing, just bring a bottle of water, I play with good mates of mine who happen to be extremely good Players, we take turns at serving and play pretty intense rallies with alot of groud covered and crank down big serves for 3-4-5 hours straight with no more then 20 minutes rest the entire time.

    I don't go gym, I'm not on some gluten free diet, or any diet for that matter and I'm able to play an entire day without even eaten a thing, and my sessions are quite gruelling, long rallies, alot of miles covered and what not.
    I'll play 5 hours one day then do the exact same thing the next, over time your body just gets used to it, to a certain extent though, my legs and body will be sore after 5 hours of tennis, but after all these years I can usually recover in a day or two, and that's without an ice bath lol

    From my personal experiences I don't think it's impossible that tennis players aren't doping, these guys are extremely fit, eat healthy and proper and have been playing tennis and training almost all year round since they were teenagers or even younger, Obviously my own experience with playing 5 hour matches back to back is nothing like the actual pro tour but I'm just having my say, that is all~
     
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  35. heninfan99

    heninfan99 G.O.A.T.

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    ALL IN, I agree with you. :)
     
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  36. merwy

    merwy Legend

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    This argument is used over and over by people that can't think for themselves. How in the world is a regular person that browses TT going to find evidence that Djokovic is doping? No seriously,try it. Please describe a scenario in which this could happen. You just walk outside and stumble upon Djokovic's diary that he dropped on the sidewalk in which he has written that he has doped?

    No, I can't prove sh1t and I don't know anything either, but please don't use that argument to defend players like Djokovic and Nadal, because the things they do are simply inhuman. This "innocent until proven guilty" approach is so naive. I would be more surprised if it turned out they didn't dope than if they did.

    And nobody thinks Djokovic's sudden improvement at the start of 2011 is at least a little suspicious? No one? Okay.
     
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  37. zebedee

    zebedee New User

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    The blood passport is on its way as is more out of competition testing provided the ASP/WTA/Grand Slams cough up. Sporting regulators have woken up at last post-Armstrong and tennis is known as an 'at risk' sport, whether guys on their way up or the established professional wanting to extend his twilight years. The regulators know all this.


    No, there is a recognised risk of older players doping to extend their careers and, moreover, Ferrer is known to have associated with US Postal's notorious doping doctor, del Moral. He is playing better now than ever and routinely making semis as well as winning tournaments. He's in remarkably full flow given his age.

    Djokovic can be suspected firstly because any player can be now. We have been lied to too many times and passing doping tests mean nothing. There is circumstantial evidence surrounding Djokovic as you point out. The press were all over him like a rash in that interview and I hope they keep it up.

    Many players put in hard work because dope like nandrolone allows them to train harder and recover.

    Agreed: I've heard an ex-ATP head of anti-doping say much the same thing.

    If you think you can liken your tennis to an ATP pro, you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Those guys are on a different planet to you and what they endure on court and in training spells the difference between you and them in world ranking terms.

    I've heard an expert witness in a court case confidently claim that he could tell through physiognomy (appearance) alone whether someone was doping or not. In that particular case (involving Linford Christie) he was eventually proved right as Christie was popped with a superhigh level of nandrolone in his system, the drug of choice for many track & field athletes.

    Proof is always required but suspicions can be well-founded on circumstantial evidence. Remember Armstrong and the 500 tests he passed with flying colours. Testing alone means nothing.

    Hopefully the blood passport and more O-O-C testing will make life harder for the cheats.
     
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  38. mattennis

    mattennis Hall of Fame

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    Totally agree with you here, because that is my case as well.

    When I was 20, 30 even 40, I used to play tennis for 3 or 4 hours easily, almost everyday (obviously not with the intensity of current pro players).

    Sometimes after a gruelling match in a tournament, I was literally dead, but 48 hours is more than enough to recover (and I had no trainer, no doctors, no diet, I was amateur).

    People that say that pro tennis players dope because of the muscles they have....you must be retarded. Go to any gym and you will see actually people with big muscles. Tennis players are very very slim, almost skinny (you have to see them up close, in person, to realize how slim they all are).

    They may be doping, but please, your reasoning is not correct. There have been always many cases in tennis (in all eras) of players winning two, three or even four consecutive five setters (each one of them of about 4 h or 5 h) because in GS you have 48 hours to recover and that is a good amount of time to recover when you have trainers, massages, good diet....

    Another totally different thing is when you have to play less than 24 hours later after a long and gruelling match.

    For example, Nadal-Moya SF of 2008 Chennai was a very long three setter (more than 3 hours) that Nadal won 6-7 7-6 7-6. Nadal had to play the final less than 24 hours later, against Youznhy, and Nadal lost 6-0 6-1 because he was dead tired. Had he had 48 hours of rest, he could have been fresh again, but 18 hours (or so) is not enough to recover after a gruelling match.

    Exactly the same thing happened to him again in 2009 Madrid SF against Djokovic, a very long match that he won 3-6 7-6 7-6. Less than 24 hours later he had to play the final against Federer, and Nadal could not recover properly in time. Had he had 48 hours (instead of about 17 hours) Nadal would have been fresh and ready, but less than 24 h is not enough.

    So players enduring long matches in GS and looking fresh 48 hours later is not rare at all.


    Again, they MAY be doping, but your reasoning to back it up (their big muscles, LOL, and their unhuman endurance, LOL again) is not correct.
     
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  39. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    Nickzor, mattennis, I'm sure your great points will fly right over the heads of the people here who apparently want to believe everyone is doping because it makes them feel smart.

    Gee, why don't you just stop watching then.
     
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  40. Crisstti

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    No, that argument is used by people who actually can think for themselves and don't mistake paranoia driven speculation with reality.

    And there's a reason that expert's testimony wasn't enough. Plus I very much doubt anyone here would be accepted as an expert in court.
     
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  41. ALL IN

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    You're wrong. There were plenty of lawsuits against the outspoken and firsthand accounts of rampant doping dating back to the 90's.
     
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  42. ALL IN

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    Your viewpoint on this subject is spectacularly stupid.
     
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  43. ALL IN

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    Very intelligent comment and perception. The fitness, diet and mental approach to the game has evolved drastically. Those are the main contributors to the extraordinary physical feats we see in Tennis today. They still pale in comparison to the physical ability required to win one Tour De France.
     
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  44. librarysteg

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    I wonder if the press is going to start hounding players and questioning their recovery routines non-stop now? I don't think Djokovic seemed overly annoyed or defensive in his last press conference, but if it becomes a running theme at all of them, I'm afraid he'll start to get pretty snippy which will then be taken as more evidence for those who are sure he's guilty.
     
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  45. ALL IN

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    It's interesting that because you can't relate to a subject that there has to be a conspiracy. What if I told you that on one occasion I played two 2 hour matches in a day at D1 college level on a 100 dg day and did the same on the following day? Are you saying that I was doping as well? How did I do it?
     
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  46. ALL IN

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    Doubts and speculation didn't do squat to Lance. The doubts and speculation was formed out of multiple firsthand accounts and indictments/subpoenas of doctors. There is no such smoking gun in tennis, yet people seem to claim there is purely on physical performance. Not one firsthand account, not one doctor, not one ex coach, not one ex supplier, not one ex gf not one indictment, and a few failed tests by suspected dopers who weren't even relevant in the rankings.
     
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  47. ALL IN

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    Exactly. Only an infantile mind sees doping as the only way a physical feat of significance can be achieved.
     
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  48. darrinbaker00

    darrinbaker00 Professional

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    I disagree with you about Marion Jones. Everyone she trained with and/or slept with was dirty, so it was only a matter of time before she got caught.
     
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  49. ALL IN

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    Exactly........
     
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  50. ALL IN

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    Agreed 100%. Speculating and accusing of roids based solely on how long they can play tennis is completely retarded.
     
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