Is Doping really the only way...........

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by ALL IN, Jan 22, 2013.

  1. librarysteg

    librarysteg Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2012
    Messages:
    2,408
    Location:
    IL
    This is a big part of why I won't let myself get swept up in all of the accusations and speculations. If it were as rampant and obvious as so many here believe it to be, I think something big would have broken by now. I think someone would be talking with more specific accusations based on first-hand observations and not just the generic comments and guesses some players have thrown out in interviews. Who knows, it might be just around the corner, but I'm happy to keep giving the benefit of the doubt until that time.
     
    #51
  2. ALL IN

    ALL IN Rookie

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    348
    I've done the same many many times. Over 5 hours of high level tennis for consecutive days. My serves clock at 125 regularly. I was affected most by what I ate and the quality of my sleep than anything. If I slept bad it would be a long day. Sleep good and I can do a week straight of 5 hour matches (exaggeration, but not by much)
     
    #52
  3. Surecatch

    Surecatch Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2005
    Messages:
    638
    Hundred percent agree. I was saying this in a thread a couple days ago. The implication that it's "obvious" that doping is going on simply because of superior fitness? I'd really prefer to think that they put the work in until there is some actual proof. This is my favorite sport, and when something concrete comes to light, I'll call a spade a spade. But there has been only suspicion based on nothing more than guys improving their fitness as far as I can see.
     
    #53
  4. zebedee

    zebedee New User

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2012
    Messages:
    80
    No one with sense is saying it's rampant. Pockets of it, no doubt. The Argentinians alone (Chela, Puerta, Hood, Coria, Canas) are proof of that.

    All rich sports with weak anti-doping are vulnerable to dopers taking advantage. Why should tennis be regarded differently?
     
    #54
  5. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    12,606
    Location:
    at the bottom of every hill I come to
    Wait, so Agassi's admission that he correctly tested positive for meth is not a 1st hand account? The fact that it wasn't disclosed by the ATP or investigated further because Agassi wrote out an excuse himself on a legal pad is not a smoking gun? Sharapova's father is 5 foot nothing and her mother is shorter than that and she is 6'2"? Genetics schmetics....it can't be HGH.

    Christophe Rochus says in an interview that he's fed up with all the doping and that's not a first hand account? One quick Google search yielded plenty of first hand accounts, here is the article quoted below:

    http://www.shrewdtennis.com/christophe-rochus-calls-for-the-legalization-of-doping-in-tennis/

    So mono is now a career ending disease? It apparently is for Robin Soderling who was a top 5 player before developing a case of mono that has kept him off court for over two years now. Robin Soderling was #6 in the world when he contracted "mono".

    Boris Becker accused the 'fittest man in tennis' of doping: Thomas Muster. This, after a "miraculous" recovery by Muster from the previous round's match.

    Whether you choose to admit it or not, there has been first hand accounts, there have been accusations, and there have been smoking guns. Why is it that the only two players to get banned were low ranked or journeyman players? McEnroe admitted to use, Agassi admitted to use...
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
    #55
  6. ALL IN

    ALL IN Rookie

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    348
    Come play me for 5 hours on back to back days and test my blood. I'm past my mid 30's and can still do it. "Inhuman".......gimme a break man. It's impressive, but I've seen many top college players do that repeatedly.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
    #56
  7. ALL IN

    ALL IN Rookie

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    348
    Thanks! :)
     
    #57
  8. ALL IN

    ALL IN Rookie

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    348
    So you consider Meth to be a Performance ENHANCING drug? Let me guess, you also think that the United States Government blew up the World Trade Center..........

    Yeah, there's no way Sharapova can be tall as evidence by her short father WOW.........Spectaculary stupid

    These so called "first hand accounts" are the same as yours ....speculation by those who don't have what it takes and won't put in the work. They are not accounts of anything other than substance-less speculation. Huge difference from the Tour saga in which there were multiple eyewitness accounts of actual doping. Without that, again, just speculation. So when the world didn't end on December 21,2012 were you shocked?
     
    #58
  9. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    12,606
    Location:
    at the bottom of every hill I come to
    Christophe Rochus didn't have what it takes? Didn't put in the work? He's 5'5" tall and he was top 100. What are you? He's so adamant, that in the article you failed to even read, he's called for legalization of it because it is so rampant.

    Yannick Noah, French Open winner and former top 4 in the world didn't put in the work and have what it takes? He's accused the Spanish of doping. He bases it on his experience in the ATP.

    So, sorry, but between some 3.0 momo who's "all in" on an internet message board and former ATP player who actually have what it takes and have been there, I'll take their word for it.
     
    #59
  10. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    4,725
    Location:
    Tennisville

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/9816922/Spain-accused-of-a-doping-cover-up-as-doctor-implicated-in-cyclings-Operation-Puerto-scandal-goes-on-trial.html
     
    #60
  11. Arafel

    Arafel Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2004
    Messages:
    1,159
    I personally, don't think meth was all Agassi took. McEnroe admitted to using PEDs at one point in his career. Multiple players have been caught, but it's usually the lower-ranked ones. Are you naive enough to think that it's only lesser players using?

    Back in the 90s when Mark Maguire, Barry Bonds, and Sammy Sosa all of a sudden started hitting homers in bunches, everyone wanted to believe it was about their hard work; no one wanted to think it was that they were doping.

    About 3-4 years ago, I didn't want to believe tennis players were doped, but now I'm pretty sure a lot of them are. The rewards are too great, and people are people. In addition to McEnroe's admission, Petr Korda was caught.

    FWIW, there are many other players who I am suspicious of, dating back to the '80s, in both the men's and women's game. Martina Navratilova is a prime example, and I think Jennifer Capriati may been using. It wouldn't surprise me at all if, for instance, Justine Henin, Serena Williams, and Sam Stosur have used. On the men's side, Djokovic and Nadal are obvious examples.

    And if you don't think that the ITF would cover it up if they could, why not read about how the US Olympic Committee covered up 114 positive tests at the 88 Olympic trials, including three by Carl Lewis, who was supposedly clean and given the gold when Ben Johnson failed his:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2003/apr/24/athletics.duncanmackay
     
    #61
  12. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Messages:
    6,436
    well in cycling that is not true. after 1998 at the festina scandal (whole Team, was busted) we pretty much knew that cycling is dirty. even back then the busted riders said that anyone in the TDF field is juicing and you cannot even finish the tour in time without PEDs.

    and when the Fuentes scandal came out even the most deniying fans knew what was going on.

    anyone knew that Lance was Doping they just could not prove it for a Long time.

    the jealousy arguement of course always comes.
    we then hear things like:
    -you are just a fat loser who is jealous at their Talent
    -skills are more important than muscles
    ...
     
    #62
  13. ivan_the_terrible

    ivan_the_terrible Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,675
    You're just a tinfoil-wearing conspiracy theorist.

    Don't you know that it's due to hard work that Rafa (I never go to the gym)Nadal & Nole (gluten-free, baby!) Djokovic are able to run all day like the Energizer bunny?

    Tennis is clean and only the Fed-haters accuse Nadal & Nole of juicing.
     
    #63
  14. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    4,725
    Location:
    Tennisville

    Well then Petr Korda has been busted too. Wayne Odesnik was caught smuggling HGH. Mariano Puerta was busted as well. So why can't we say we know tennis is not clean?


    The second bolded part is exactly what I have been saying - when you say "everyone knew Lance was doping but no one could prove it" - exactly what does that mean? It means there was nothing more than "speculation". I can say the same thing about Nadal today. Tell me how it is different than what you're saying about Lance.
     
    #64
  15. ALL IN

    ALL IN Rookie

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    348
    Please. What's obvious is that you have no clue what you're talking about. Ok then, what PED makes people mentally stronger....please explain.........

    Tennis is more of a mental sport than any other. Many of the players that have the same or better stamina than Djokovic and Nadal don't have the mental toughness or shot making skill to go far enough into tournaments for you to "conspire" about their stamina. When was the last time you tracked a player who doesn't go deep into the slams and see what he does right afterwards or in which continent he plays a 4 hour match two days after a Grand Slam in Australia? Your speculation is a joke.
     
    #65
  16. ALL IN

    ALL IN Rookie

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    348
    Petr Korda and Wayne Odesnik? Who the hell are they in tennis? What the hell do they have in common with today's players, or any elite player for that matter? Lance Armstrong was the face of cycling. You think Wayne and Petr are the face of tennis and are examples of ANYTHING.....what a joke of a comparison.



    Wayne Odesnik (born November 21, 1985, in Johannesburg, South Africa) is a professional left-handed American tennis player, with a two-handed backhand.

    Among his biggest upsets were a 2007 win over Ivan Ljubičić, and a 2009 win against Igor Kunitsyn.


    Wow, what a stud! He must have been roided to the hilt to beat Ljubicic in 2007!
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
    #66
  17. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    4,725
    Location:
    Tennisville

    I was answering dominik's statement about how after festina, cycling was pretty much known as dirty. At that point in 1998 Lance wasn't caught.

    Same thing in tennis with Korda and Odesnik. How does it matter if they're high profile or not? We're talking about whether the sport has dopers or not to consider the sport tainted.

    Stop with your illogical ranting.
     
    #67
  18. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    12,606
    Location:
    at the bottom of every hill I come to
    So your response when confronted with the evidence you say doesn't exist is to change your argument to mental toughness? Stellar response.
     
    #68
  19. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2011
    Messages:
    12,686
    Denial is all these people got left. People are still defending Armstrong, even after he admitted to doping his guts out.
     
    #69
  20. librarysteg

    librarysteg Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2012
    Messages:
    2,408
    Location:
    IL
    I had a dream last night that one of the top players was doping so it must be true.
     
    #70
  21. Govnor

    Govnor Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,335
    Certainly, we have to have open eyes here. It's "possible" there could be some doping at the top of Tennis. With the length of these modern matches, there would be an advantage to have some recovery assistance.

    One thing, at least to me, that makes Tennis a more unlikely home for doping though, is the fact that it is what I call a "skill" sport. Somewhat like soccer, in the sense that you can have all the physical gifts in the world, but if you have not been playing since a very early age, you will never be a top player. You have to put in the time and get coached.

    It's not about "power output" or strength, it's about how you time that swing, and at what angle you hit the ball and your tactics against the opponent.

    Also - when you get near the top, you are rich. You can afford the best trainers and dieticians, etc. That also is a huge factor here.
     
    #71
  22. volleygirl

    volleygirl Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2011
    Messages:
    404

    Awesome post.
     
    #72
  23. volleygirl

    volleygirl Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2011
    Messages:
    404


    Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens agree with you
     
    #73
  24. volleygirl

    volleygirl Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2011
    Messages:
    404


    Lance Armstrong also appreciates you loyally defending him for the last decade.
     
    #74
  25. Arafel

    Arafel Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2004
    Messages:
    1,159
    Ok, why not read this list? Remember this is just the ones who have been caught publicly, not the ones like McEnroe and Agassi who later admitted to using but were never caught.

    http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.com/p/doping-cases.html

    This list includes several Slam champions and a Slam runner-up. But keep swimming up that Egyptian river why don't you.
     
    #75
  26. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    12,606
    Location:
    at the bottom of every hill I come to
    Great point! And I don't think I've seen it mentioned, but there is the case of Richard Gasquet. He tested positive for cocaine and then blamed it on a kiss? The ATP's reply "OH yeah, we can see how that'd happen.....ban lifted"
     
    #76
  27. Vrad

    Vrad Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    618
    Lol...I was just speaking to a guy who told me right after the Oprah interview "it was always obvious Lance was doping", who only a week before it was like "there isn't any evidence, so it is all unfounded speculation".
     
    #77
  28. ALL IN

    ALL IN Rookie

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    348
    Where did I deny anything about Agassi's meth or Odesnik and Korda's use? I didn't say that there is no doping in tennis. I'm saying that nobody with any degree of intellect can conclude any tennis player is using PED based on his/her performance. It is idiocy at its finest.
     
    #78
  29. ALL IN

    ALL IN Rookie

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    348
    Look up Tyler Hamilton and Dr Ferrari.
     
    #79
  30. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    12,606
    Location:
    at the bottom of every hill I come to
    I will defer to your judgement on idiocy as you seem all too well acquainted with it. Reread your posts.

    Read what Jim Courier, John McEnroe, Mardy Fish, Andre Agassi and other top pros have said. They admit there is a problem in the sport with doping. Although I'm quite sure none of them would qualify as "good" enough to voice an opinion.
     
    #80
  31. Ginger ninja

    Ginger ninja Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Messages:
    429
    Name me one other sport where you can run and run for 5 hours and then turn round and run for 6 hrs the following day with seemingly no negative affects.

    During the football and rugby world cups, they have supremely fit athletes who are exhausted after 120 minutes (after extra time) and are not 100% fit 4 days later.
     
    #81
  32. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,115
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    Who did this?
     
    #82
  33. Arafel

    Arafel Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2004
    Messages:
    1,159
    Dude seriously? I'm beginning to think you are a troll. How's this?

    Is that enough, or do you want more? You say there are no "first-hand" accounts, yet when people show them to you, you say,

    Players have talked about doping in tennis. Not just Christophe. Steffi Graf said she was sure she'd played a few people who had doped.

    Here are just a few quotes:

    "I'm much more inclined to have a concern for something that we cannot test for under the current system of testing, which is blood doping..." - Jim Courier

    "This is my 11th year. I've seen a few guys come and go who have cheated..." - Mardy Fish

    "EPO is the problem, I have pretty strong suspicions that guys are using it on the tour. I see guys who are out there week in and week out without taking rests. EPO can help you when it's the fifth set and you've been playing for four-and-a-half hours." - Jim Courier

    "You can tell when someone has been on steroids… A guy bulks up, has a new body and never gets tired...You see these guys or girls who come onto the tour talking about their new training programs and their diets where they eat this or that new thing…but they’ll never tell you about the drugs they took." - John McEnroe

    'If I said tennis is totally clean, I would be kidding myself." Nick Bolletieri

    "There are people out there who don't have the ethics that are necessary for there to be a level playing field, and as long as there are, we're going to have those who are trying to get a leg up." - Todd Martin

    "I can't believe there is a real will to fight against doping...I don't know whether the testing is done to catch the guys or just for show. Sometimes, I ask myself the question, when I see what goes on." - Fabrice Santoro


    How can you look at some of these players and not acknowledge that they are enjoying "better living through chemistry?"
     
    #83
  34. benchinho

    benchinho New User

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2013
    Messages:
    11
    i´m not sayin´ that i can´t imagine tennis pros doping... but i think that a tennis match - even a 5-setter - can´t be compared to tour-de-france-cycling or something similar.
    the net-playing time in those 5+ hour matches is - as a guess - less than 2 hours... ...you have breaks every two games... ...you wait for nadal to serve... ...plenty of time to recover...
    that´s why i think it is possible to do this in a two week gs-tournament...
     
    #84
  35. Arafel

    Arafel Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2004
    Messages:
    1,159
    Nadal, AO 2009 for starters. Djokovic, AO 2011. Those are just two examples.

    At this point, I'm not even sure Federer is clean.
     
    #85
  36. akind

    akind Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2012
    Messages:
    255
    Location:
    Here
    #86
  37. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,115
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    All guess work. Doping tests before every tournament will end this speculation.
     
    #87
  38. Arafel

    Arafel Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2004
    Messages:
    1,159
    Not really. Lance Armstrong never failed a drug test.

    Even if you do fail, it wouldn't surprise me if the result was covered up. See Carl Lewis, US Olympic Committee 1988, and Armstrong again.
     
    #88
  39. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,115
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    Read what I said before. The tests must be blood tests, and the body sanctioning the tests must be non-profit and completely unconnected to the profit making side of the sport's business. It's the only way to stop PED users testing clean, if they are even tested at all, and to stop the corrupt process of plea bargaining investigations like there was in the Armstrong case.
     
    #89
  40. cluckcluck

    cluckcluck Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2010
    Messages:
    2,356
    Location:
    Between the baseline and netcord.
    #90
  41. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    12,606
    Location:
    at the bottom of every hill I come to
    From what I've read on the subject, testing is done only for the first few rounds. The ITF has said that EPD's don't lend themselves to tennis (ha ha) so they have cut back on testing.

    Doping has a detectable life in the body of 3 days (for most) and blood doping is even shorter. The benefits are recovery and the ability to train harder, longer, and more effectively.

    The real solution is to test randomly every round of a major.
     
    #91
  42. THE FIGHTER

    THE FIGHTER Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,521
    all this doping rampancy stuff is nonsense until multiple people who've made significant marks on the tour are proven to have benefited from doping, and that the atp is covering it up.

    its incorrect to scapegoat someone based on suspicion.
     
    #92
  43. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,115
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    Petr Korda tested positive for nandrolone in the quarter finals of 1998 Wimbledon. If doping only has a detectable presence for 3 days, then yes, there needs to be many blood tests during every tournament. I don't even think testing randomly is the answer. It should be universal for every single player. The reason this isn't already happening is the almighty dollar, pound, euro.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
    #93

Share This Page