Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by Steady Eddy, Mar 15, 2011.
Is it cruel to boil lobsters alive?
probably. Someone will post lobster sashimi in this thread i just know it
I think you're supposed to chill them, skewer and then boil so yes it's inhumane.
... that means your poll options are too limited.
Definitely not! i think they like it!! Imagine you are boiling alive, what a nice experience, good way to die.
im sure they enjoy.
So why isn't the 1st choice good enough?
I love lobster, but I find it cruel. I haven't eaten lobster in a while. You can always buy the raw tails and stuff and cook them.
Yes. Though I inject them inject them with 80-110ml of morphine. Then read them passages from the bible as I turn up the heat.
Plus I only eat the bad ones who deserved it.
The chill sends them to sleep so you can kill them humanely with a needle and then cook immediately, so you can boil them and eat them if prepared humanely and that's not what option 1 states - 'and don't eat lobster'.
I think it is cruel, I can't tell how the lobster feels and it can't tell us either but I have heard that it doesn't make any difference in taste if you kill it just before you put it in the boiling water so maybe doing that is a good idea. Same thing with the earth turtles, in some countries they cook it the same way, put them alive in boling water, but in this case the animal does scream and you can hear it is in pain, it is really sad to watch.
I also heard that there is another way to kill them that is put them while the water is just warm and increase the temperature little by little this way the animal doesn't even realized it is being boiled.
In the end these are just ways to ease our concience and make us feel like we are good people. I beleive for animal is the same, the result is the same, it is going to be death anyway.
I love some of your posts. However, seriously, it may be a rather good idea to read passages of the Bible to an animal before killing it, and before injecting them with morphine (i presume they won't be conscious when you read the Bible to them after morphine). I would also recommend playing it Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor just in case it does not have religious inclinations.
If you must kill anyone, human, animal, insect etc, let it be an instant painless death, and not a slow lingering or painful one.
Just read to the lobster any post by suresh and the lobster will be begging to jump into the boiling water.
Lobsters do not feel pain:
This debate has been brought up in regards to people that practice catch and release fishing (mainly fly fishing). Their nervous systems are not complex enough to feel what we consider pain.
Don't let the bleeding hearts take away your enjoyment of a freshly boiled lobster.
In another universe- Lobsters are boiling humans, wondering the same thing.
I mean some chop the line down their "heads" and I do not see steaming them to be a better option- I think lobster is right behind stone crab when it comes to seafood- MMMMM MMMMM good!
I'd also be surprised if they felt pain, certainly not pain caused by heat. Lobsters evolved in the ocean which is a relatively stable temperature environment, so they wouldn't need to evolve receptors for heat discomfort, of the type we have in our dermal layers.
This has been done to death in the foodie vs animal rights discussions for a while now. It's generally accepted that:
- They die instantly on immersion from shock
- If they are cold enough first they are asleep before they die instantly
- Their nervous system contains no identifiable pain receptors, similar to mainy other crustaceans
So they probably don't even know what's happened.
That said it's still debateable just from an ethical standpoint whether you should throw them into boiling water alive, or eat them at all for that matter but it's generally accepted as just that, an ethical, philosophical discussion.
Off for my lobster lunch now...
Would you want to be boiled alive?
No its not.
Why ? Coz doing it after you are dead isnt an option.
The analogy escapes me....I have pain receptors. Perhaps the only ethical solution is to annhilate all life on earth, as the planet is filled with predators, and killing everyone in one step would eliminated the daily cycle of cruelty wherein most creatures eat their pray while it's still alive. What say you, Saint Manus?
Tell the lobsters they are going for a spa treatment.
I'd say its definitely better to kill them first, before throwing them in a pot of boiling water, whats the hassle? Just put a knife through their head and off to the pot!
All of a sudden Im in the mood for some lobster thermidor.......
That sums it well.
It doesn't bother me too much. In addition to enjoying lobster, I also eat veal and foie gras so I'm a complete lost cause. Further, I buy my wife diamonds which when mined may or may not have led to the death of mine workers. And last summer I killed a wasp which stung me on my calf muscle when I was eating lunch at my desk. I'm going to hell
I was having lunch with Charlie Sheen yesterday at Red Lobster when he asked: "am I crazy or is it hot in here?"
LMAO-Amen! What happened to suresh that he turned (lobster) tail and morphed into a troll?
Sentinel, you think playing something dramatically sinister & foreboding as "Tocatta & Fugue in D Minor" (BWV 565) to these crustaceans on death row is going to assage their anxiety especially given that piece's VERY ominous opening?
Or even worse=lmao!!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOErZuzZpS8
How about maybe instead, Handel's "Water Music" or something sooothing such as Edvard Grieg's "Morning" (Peter Gynt Suite) or Debussy's elegant "Clair de Lune?"
FYI--boiling lobsters is illegal in Reggio Emilia, Italy (fines of a couple of hundred Euro).
I would say it is cruel. By the way, that's a great song DP. Here's a live version of "Rock Lobster".
Dropping them into boiling water is likely the MOST humane way to kill them. They are in their native enviroment (salted water) and, with no apparent pain or thermal receptors, likely just lose consciousness almost immediately. I hope I go as comfortably as that.
You thought I wouldn't see this post?
This is: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/16/japan.nuclear.heroes/index.html?hpt=T1
150 guys go straight into the very heart of nuclear mayhem and radiation.
What do you think? Of course it is, and is completely unnecessary. Kill them first, then boil them.
This is B.S. Do you think they are screaming out of pleasure? If that's the way you want to go have at it.
It's completely humane. They can't feel pain because their nervous systems are too simple. I will continue enjoying my lobster without being attacked by your morals. Good day to you sir!
I think they're "screaming" out of amazement at your ignorance. Lobsters of course have no mechanism such as vocal chords or anything else to vocalize; what you call a scream is thought to be noise made by air coming out of their GI tracts in the water. As noted exhaustively, there is no neuroanatomical evidence that would suggest any mechanism to experience pain.
Hell no! Considering how you have been TRYING desperately for attention all over the boards, I was hoping you would read it.
Leaving the cruelty question aside, as to the question of lobsters and if they feel pain, there are two opposing views. In 2009, this study suggested that crustaceans do feel pain. These are two different questions, because we can all think of situations when acts could be thought of as cruel, but no pain is involved. Regardless, this study suggests that lobsters do feel pain.
The article presented deals with the hermit crab, and is not relevant to the discussion. Hermit crabs are adapted for both aquatic and terrestrial life and are considered a more advanced and evolved group of species than the lobster, with a more elaborate nervous system. That a hermit crab might experience pain has no bearing on what a lobster can experience. I will abstain, however, from eating hermit crabs.
Purely on a scientific basis
In regards to borg_number_one recent studies on octopus have overturned long standing belief that less centralized neural systems cannot be as complex as mammals. They have discovered that octopus have self awareness, memory, learning ability and amazing problem solving ability (using tests where they solving unique and guaranteed unencountered problems (which couldn't be solved with just preexisting imprinted instincts)).
If they do not feel pain why do they avoid get hurt? Just wondering.
Octopii (not octopussies hehehe) are very intelligent. They figured out how to unscrew jar lids. They learn by observing others of their species. If trapped in a box with a hole, they measure the hole with their tentacles (which each have a mini-brain) and only attempt to squeeze thru if the size is greater than the part of their body which cannot be squeezed (beak).
I generally buy my lobster fished from the American atlantic coast or european coasts. I don't buy asian lobster and I never considered that the euro & american ones might be of another religion. How ignorant of me. I will take your music advice.
I find it takes some time for the morphine to set in if injected in the lobster buttox. No akward silence, I'm a caring guy, I hate to bore my tasty guest.
(lobster do have buttox (they look jenniferlopeztastic))
Now that I remember the last time I ate lobster was in Beijing last year. They took off the tail of the animal and put it uncooked in the table with the rest of it alive next to the tail, it was walking and seen us eating its tail. After we were done with the tail the took everything back to the kitchen and boil it and bring it back to the table. Very unusual experience.
At least that would be better than my other choice "Careful with that Axe, Eugene" (live version in which the scream goes on and on). Or the "Great gig in the sky".
Or reading them your rejoinders, they could die laughing.
If boiling lobsters are wrong, why are they so tasty afterward?
Because I guess if you kill them first, they release a chemical that makes the meat taste like rubber. They taste better if they go directly into the boiling water. Reminds me of drawings of missionaries being boiled in big pots. Maybe people taste better too if you boil them alive?
Now you are just being silly.
This one ought to soothe the lobsters:
“Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.”
Tut tut.... this is for you this time!
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged” (Matthew 7:1).
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. (John 8:7)
I haven't got any links to this so you'll have to take the response below as you see fit as I can't verify it easily.
My recollection is that I believe the response many academics had to that study at the time was that responding to an electric shock is not the same thing as responding to pain. Pretty much any organism with a nervous system responds to electric shock.
Similar studies involving (for example) removal of a limb suggest otherwise i.e. they have no aversion to repeatedly engaging in situations that caused their legs to get pulled off.
I think it's probably one of those things we will never know the answer to (along the same lines as "can dogs see colour"). I'm not convinced it's going to change a lot either way to be honest. It's very academically curious though.
I would agree. This topic is probably something we will never have a full answer to. We are not crustaceans, so there are inherent limits to how much we can appreciate as to what they actually feel. With animals, of course you have a very different situation. Mammals, including animals and human beings, have a nervous system in place. Here are wikipedia links to two topics that are interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_crustaceans (pain in crustaceans)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_fish (pain in fish)
And here's a song request from the Lobsters themselves:
Separate names with a comma.