Is It OK To Lose A Game To Win The Match?

Topaz

Legend
That is why I said there is a fundamental difference in how men and women approach the game.
Even if we do go over, we will go over by more than 2-3 minutes that I wait to let you finish. In that case, we could not have helped it anyway. At least, one match was decided by full play.
.

And it is also my observation that men are little more willing to be flexible than women when it comes to such issues. .

Ok. It is not the question of "running into such issues" but treating them as an issue or a problem.

Let me try this way.

Did you happen to notice how many posters basically agreed that they would have thrown that game to win the match? You are free to call out my faulty assumption that men outnumber women on this forum and also a horrible horrible assumption that most of the posters who replied in that way are males. :shudder:

The world has become too politically correct and any mention of differences between men and women is treated by women as a big ..umm *problem*?

First of all...the things that you said that I have problems with I have quoted above. I don't see where you said that men outnumber women on the forum. If you had actually said that, I would agree. They do.

But you didn't say that. You said that men are willing to be more flexible than women. You brought gender into a situation where it was not an issue. The issue was whether or not Cindy's decision was a moral one. People of *both* genders replied in their support.

Again, you brought gender into this, and now you are trying to re-write your posts. The *problem* with your posts are that they are FALSE. This rule (which is the same in my district as in Cindy's) is to be observed by teams of both genders, therefore the situation that Cindy found herself in would be experienced by players of both genders. You think that men would give a few extra minutes...but that isn't the issue here. There are no extra minutes. Time is up, match is over. Men are *just* as ruthless about kicking people off on time as women, and they have every right to be that way...once that bell rings and time is up, the players change. No extra minutes.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Spiderman, I think you have gotten your eight legs all tangled up here. :)

The rules and their enforcement are meant to be gender neutral. To say that men will not give players extra time to finish has been refuted by the men here who play timed matches and shared their experiences on this thread. You have been proven wrong.

Yes, Topaz and I tend to agree on many things. This is probably due to two things. First, we play in the same section so we understand the system and the customs. Second, we are both wicked smart. :)

One more thing. You did imply that those who would enforce the time rules are petty. Actually, you used the word "weirdos." Let me quote you:

Even if we do go over, we will go over by more than 2-3 minutes that I wait to let you finish. In that case, we could not have helped it anyway. At least, one match was decided by full play.

If we go over by just 2-3 minutes, I will request the next team if they can let us finish. If not, I would at least feel good that we let you finish.

This is recreational tennis and that is exactly how I and almost all the people I know through tennis look at it. Ofcourse, there are some weirdos around but everyone agrees that they are weirdos and everyone ignores them.

So. If you meant to insult women and those who follow the clear time guidelines we all agreed to follow, fine. Just know why a couple of us took the time to try to explain it all to you.
 

spiderman123

Professional
Spiderman, I think you have gotten your eight legs all tangled up here. :)

The rules and their enforcement are meant to be gender neutral. To say that men will not give players extra time to finish has been refuted by the men here who play timed matches and shared their experiences on this thread. You have been proven wrong.

Yes, Topaz and I tend to agree on many things. This is probably due to two things. First, we play in the same section so we understand the system and the customs. Second, we are both wicked smart. :)

One more thing. You did imply that those who would enforce the time rules are petty. Actually, you used the word "weirdos." Let me quote you:



So. If you meant to insult women and those who follow the clear time guidelines we all agreed to follow, fine. Just know why a couple of us took the time to try to explain it all to you.

A-Ha!

I found the basic misunderstanding here. When I used the word "Weirdos" i did not mean to insult women. It may have sounded like that but I was talking about some men who are not thinking like majority others when it comes to solving issues. Had nothing to do with insulting women. Sorry if it felt like that.

And no, it did not take "two of u" to explain all this. First of all, I truly consider both of you the same ;) and you (singular for me, plural for others) still have not understood what that comment meant. The whole default issue was just an example thatcame to my mind, but it looks like it is a very touchy issue. Maybe I should have cited some other issues. And I have no intention of carrying on if you believe that men and women are similar when it comes to tennis. In fact, I had stopped that by saying "ok" and then someone must have felt obligated to show their solidarity.

I would like to thank Topaz to bold that quote about Cindy-issues-mostmen. I should have done that myself but that would have triggered 6 more mails from you per id

And no, spiderman does not have 8 legs.:)
 

spiderman123

Professional
First of all...the things that you said that I have problems with I have quoted above. I don't see where you said that men outnumber women on the forum. If you had actually said that, I would agree. They do.

But you didn't say that. You said that men are willing to be more flexible than women. You brought gender into a situation where it was not an issue. The issue was whether or not Cindy's decision was a moral one. People of *both* genders replied in their support.

Again, you brought gender into this, and now you are trying to re-write your posts. The *problem* with your posts are that they are FALSE. This rule (which is the same in my district as in Cindy's) is to be observed by teams of both genders, therefore the situation that Cindy found herself in would be experienced by players of both genders. You think that men would give a few extra minutes...but that isn't the issue here. There are no extra minutes. Time is up, match is over. Men are *just* as ruthless about kicking people off on time as women, and they have every right to be that way...once that bell rings and time is up, the players change. No extra minutes.

Topaz,

I did say that about men outnumbering women. I said that in that very post and you assumed that was a statement made in the past. I hope you did not go looking into my earlier posts (or maybe used the search option in this forum).

Things like this tell me one thing, we are going to be orthogonal in this discussion.

So yes, you are right. About what you said and what you are about to say. There is no denying that. :)

And Congratulations on the Bronze ball.


PS: You are right.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Spiderman, even if you manage to read the entire archives of TW to find other examples of how I might handle something different from you and your buddies, that will not prove that men and women are different when it comes to the issue that is the subject of this thread.

I don't mind if people discuss gender differences. I have discussed them myself. We just have to be careful not to attribute unflattering characteristics to one gender only unless we are on very solid ground.

Oh, Topaz has posted her picture and tfm1973 has met me. I think he can attest that we aren't the same person! :)
 

spiderman123

Professional
Spiderman, even if you manage to read the entire archives of TW to find other examples of how I might handle something different from you and your buddies, that will not prove that men and women are different when it comes to the issue that is the subject of this thread.

I don't mind if people discuss gender differences. I have discussed them myself. We just have to be careful not to attribute unflattering characteristics to one gender only unless we are on very solid ground.

Oh, Topaz has posted her picture and tfm1973 has met me. I think he can attest that we aren't the same person! :)

What unflattering characteristics you are talking about? I just made one statement that men and women approach it differently. you may choose to believe otherwise.

How does
"This is recreational tennis and that is exactly how I and almost all the people I know through tennis look at it. Ofcourse, there are some weirdos around but everyone agrees that they are weirdos and everyone ignores them."
mean that women are weirdos?? (was in a separate paragraph too)

And you don't need to prove that you and Topaz are different. I was careful in including a smiley whenever I mentioned both of you to be the same.

AAHHHHHH.......... <makes a mental note never to tell women that they are different and runs off>


PS:<shouts from a distance> Tell topaz that she is right. (when you look into mirror next time ;) )<runs away faster>
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
What unflattering characteristics you are talking about? I just made one statement that men and women approach it differently. you may choose to believe otherwise.

That's my point. You are saying men and women approach the handling of timed matches differently. That's the problem.

You then suggest that you (and I presume you are a guy) would be a gentleman and give players a chance to finish, even if this meant that you didn't finish your match.

The implication is that anyone who did it differently is being the opposite of a gentleman. What is that? Petty. Unsporting. Unkind. Nit-picky. Mean. Weird. Pick any adjective you want, but it's not flattering or accurate.

Imagine that you instead had said, "Blacks and whites approach these things differently. I'm a white guy, and I'd give the players a chance to finish because I understand this is just league tennis." You see where saying such a thing might get you into hot water?

There was no misunderstanding. I just think you're taking something that isn't a gender issue and claiming it is.
 

fe6250

Semi-Pro
I was going to add that I believe you would have been fine to throw the game - but this topic has turned into a Bobby Riggs nightmare of sort ;-) j/k

One question that I did have was whether this was a USTA match or not. The reason I ask is that at least in our district our local coordinator encourages us to get the matches in if it is possible. This includes 'bending the rules' if both teams agree for things like...someone late to the match but on their way OR running passed the time limit but no one is waiting for the court.

It seems to me that time rules are generally put in place in USTA because of court time restrictions and making sure that multiple matches can be played. At least in our district they would err toward 'playing it out' vs. following that type of rule.

Now - I do think that some people enforce the rules more than others and nit pick about details that were not intended to dictate the outcome of the match. I think the issue is more about people who fail to meet the spirit of competition in amateur tennis vs. whether this is more common in one gender or the other. (I'll let the rest of you debate that if you want!)
 

spiderman123

Professional
One question that I did have was whether this was a USTA match or not. The reason I ask is that at least in our district our local coordinator encourages us to get the matches in if it is possible. This includes 'bending the rules' if both teams agree for things like...someone late to the match but on their way OR running passed the time limit but no one is waiting for the court.

(out of breath will all that running)...YOU DON'T SAY.. Treating rules merely as guidelines and bending them a little to have a complete match!! Next thing you may say that some of you consider ignoring the bell/horn to play those last two points! Where will this end???

<feints>

Disclaimer: It was not my intent to insult women in this post. The world is not made of 1s and 0s. If someone is not a gentleman at some moment does not mean they are petty, unsporting and are considered to be at other end of the spectrum.
 

fe6250

Semi-Pro
(out of breath will all that running)...YOU DON'T SAY.. Treating rules merely as guidelines and bending them a little to have a complete match!! Next thing you may say that some of you consider ignoring the bell/horn to play those last two points! Where will this end???

Maybe I'm dense as a 2X4 or this wine is kicking in - but I'm having trouble understanding all of this. I do recognize some sarcasm here though!
 

fe6250

Semi-Pro
Maybe I'm dense as a 2X4 or this wine is kicking in - but I'm having trouble understanding all of this. I do recognize some sarcasm here though!

Sorry - hadn't read your running quote up earlier....NOW I get it (smacking self in head)
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
One question that I did have was whether this was a USTA match or not. The reason I ask is that at least in our district our local coordinator encourages us to get the matches in if it is possible. This includes 'bending the rules' if both teams agree for things like...someone late to the match but on their way OR running passed the time limit but no one is waiting for the court.

It seems to me that time rules are generally put in place in USTA because of court time restrictions and making sure that multiple matches can be played. At least in our district they would err toward 'playing it out' vs. following that type of rule.

This was a USTA match.

We had a captain's meeting in November. In it, the head of the league said what he always says: Two hours is all you get. Enforce the time restrictions. There are reasons for the time restrictions, he said. Not once did he say, "We'd prefer that you bend the rules so matches are decided on the courts." He then went into detail about ways to use the time efficiently and increase your chance of finishing on time.

There is, of course, a burning desire in players to decide it on the court. There are times when the losing team will exploit that desire in the team that is winning, attempting to guilt them into continuing to play.

I have told my teammates that I would like us to adhere to the rules regarding time in all cases and let the chips fall where they may. We'll win some and we'll lose some. But we can never be accused of gamesmanship or guilted into playing past the limit, as we will be ruthlessly consistent regardless of whether we are ahead.

I understand that your league does it differently. But on some level, this is rather arbitrary and unfair. It seems unfair that sometimes we will lose because we are forced to play past the limit but other times we will lose because we didn't get the chance to play past the limit, see? Right now, we have absolute certainty that we are always playing on a completely level field, and there is value in that. Me, I would oppose a rule change to adopt your league's policy.

As I told my team, failing to follow the rules is the fast track to having to file a grievance. Say you are just finishing the second set and split sets when time expires. Rather than stop, you keep playing ("Come on, come on, we can finish, let's play!!"). You get to 4-2 in the tiebreak. The facility manager comes up and tells you to get the heck off the court (facility is closing, they don't rent courts to non-members, some member or pro needs the court). Then what? The team who is ahead in the tiebreak says it should count and they win. The team who is behind in the tiebreak (but who was leading based on game count) says both teams contemplated that they would finish the tiebreak, and since they didn't it does not count. Then what?

Nah. Shake hands at 90 minutes or 2 hours or whatever the limit is and go home.

Cindy -- whose mixed captain had to file a grievance when a court kept playing past the time limit
 
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In my opinion, anything that will win you the match is all good and fair. The rules are there and any technicalities that you may exploit are the fault of the people who made the rules.
 

fe6250

Semi-Pro
I guess - I personally would rather decide it on the court than win by a rule of convenience. Most of the guys on my team and in my league agree - of course we are playing for fun and the beer after and don't care about winning the league - so maybe that has something to do with it.
 

shell

Professional
Maybe I'm dense as a 2X4 or this wine is kicking in - but I'm having trouble understanding all of this. I do recognize some sarcasm here though!

I need some of your wine to decipher the above...but since I was one to state I had never played under time constraints (south and southwest where the indoor courts are almost not necessary) I now understand that that was not part of the issue.

Still say it was just fine as a strategy.

And spider, I also somewhat agree that the men seem more laid back on some of these subjects.

So....all win!!!!!!! Let's drink more wine!!!!!!
 

AP328

Rookie
This was a USTA match.

We had a captain's meeting in November. In it, the head of the league said what he always says: Two hours is all you get. Enforce the time restrictions. There are reasons for the time restrictions, he said. Not once did he say, "We'd prefer that you bend the rules so matches are decided on the courts." He then went into detail about ways to use the time efficiently and increase your chance of finishing on time.

There is, of course, a burning desire in players to decide it on the court. There are times when the losing team will exploit that desire in the team that is winning, attempting to guilt them into continuing to play.

I have told my teammates that I would like us to adhere to the rules regarding time in all cases and let the chips fall where they may. We'll win some and we'll lose some. But we can never be accused of gamesmanship or guilted into playing past the limit, as we will be ruthlessly consistent regardless of whether we are ahead.

I understand that your league does it differently. But on some level, this is rather arbitrary and unfair. It seems unfair that sometimes we will lose because we are forced to play past the limit but other times we will lose because we didn't get the chance to play past the limit, see? Right now, we have absolute certainty that we are always playing on a completely level field, and there is value in that. Me, I would oppose a rule change to adopt your league's policy.

As I told my team, failing to follow the rules is the fast track to having to file a grievance. Say you are just finishing the second set and split sets when time expires. Rather than stop, you keep playing ("Come on, come on, we can finish, let's play!!"). You get to 4-2 in the tiebreak. The facility manager comes up and tells you to get the heck off the court (facility is closing, they don't rent courts to non-members, some member or pro needs the court). Then what? The team who is ahead in the tiebreak says it should count and they win. The team who is behind in the tiebreak (but who was leading based on game count) says both teams contemplated that they would finish the tiebreak, and since they didn't it does not count. Then what?

Nah. Shake hands at 90 minutes or 2 hours or whatever the limit is and go home.

Cindy -- whose mixed captain had to file a grievance when a court kept playing past the time limit


Cindy,

I applaud your support of the rules. It should not change week to week and affect match outcomes.

Since you are a team captain, I would submit a rule change to your district, similar to this...

With 15 Minutes Left on the Clock – end of regulation

Players will finish the game in progress (first service ball struck). If a team is up by two games, they win that set. If games are within one or tied, they play a 12 point tiebreak (first to 7, by two) for the set. If sets are then split, they play another tiebreak.

(expanded version below...you can still have 90 minute matches as needed)

1) Time will be called after 1 hour, 45 minutes. If you are in a game when time is called, complete that game (a game begins when the first service ball is struck, even if it goes in the net or out).

2) If a team/player is ahead by, at least, two games - they have won that set.

3) If a team/player is within one game or tied - they play a set tie break (first to seven, by two).

4) If sets are split (third set never begun), they play a set tie break, in lieu of a third set.

5) If the second set is interrupted, the above rules 2) and 3) apply. If sets are then split, they play a set tie break, in lieu of a third set.

We know it is possible that a match will run out of time. You can help reduce this risk by following these suggestion.

a) Limit warm-up to 10 minutes. Captains should call for the match to begin.
b) Only switch sides after sets. You get a two minute break between sets, and you may drink water, as needed. You may not leave the court for water.

The match must be finished. If time runs out, players should move to an available court to complete the match. If the match must be finished at a later time, both teams/players get a 10 minute warm-up before resuming play.

If the match ahead of yours runs over time, try sharing a court for warm up. All four singles players can warm-up on one court. If it is time for your match to begin, the players must stop, so your match can begin.

We want all matches to be decided on the court, not by a racquet spin. We also don't want to penalize a player who is a "slow start" by counting games. The entire section is following these same procedures for resolving a Timed Match. Thank you, in advance, for your understanding and cooperation.
 

10sfreak

Semi-Pro
Cindy, wasn't it you who, when I asked in these forums what you would do if, hypothetically, you had inside knowledge that you would be DQed if you win by more than 3 games in the National Championship Final, and you're already up 7-6, 5-3 at 40-30? I believe your answer was something like, "I'd serve an ace right down the middle!" Of course, this would DQ you, and your team would come in second place instead of first. (Again, this is a HYPOTHETICAL situation!) Seems like you might re-think that attitude nowadays...:)
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Cindy, wasn't it you who, when I asked in these forums what you would do if, hypothetically, you had inside knowledge that you would be DQed if you win by more than 3 games in the National Championship Final, and you're already up 7-6, 5-3 at 40-30? I believe your answer was something like, "I'd serve an ace right down the middle!" Of course, this would DQ you, and your team would come in second place instead of first. (Again, this is a HYPOTHETICAL situation!) Seems like you might re-think that attitude nowadays...:)

Huh?

As I said above, it felt wrong somehow to throw a game under the circumstances here when the purpose of doing so was to give ourselves a chance to win the match outright.

It feels much, much more wrong to throw games to manipulate the computer and avoid a DQ.

How are these two positions inconsistent?

And yeah, I still think you are way wrong to throw games to avoid moving up or avoid a DQ. I just haven't mentioned it in a while . . .
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
AP328,

If I am reading your rules correctly, they seem to contemplate that players need not adhere strictly to the 90-minute (night league) or 2 hour (day league) restrictions. For instance, they can go find another court.

That makes them a no-go in our area. No moving to another court. There are no available adjacent courts.

Here's an example for a 90-minute night match, begun at 9:30 with a facility closing time of 11:00. Teams go 7-6 in first set, which takes one hour. Teams get to 3-3 in the second set at 10:45. Under our rules, the teams keep playing, both struggling to get two games ahead. When time is up, time is up.

Under your rules, they stop playing that set after only 75 minutes of play and play a 12-point tiebreak. If they split sets, they then play a 10-point tiebreak.

I have two problems with this. Why not let the teams keep playing the regular way? Geez, they've only been playing for 75 minutes and already they are being interruped and told to play a tiebreak? Besides, if they are allowed to continue on, the team that won the first set might get an outright victory. And the likelihood of finishing not one but two tiebreaks (with all that Coman switching) in just 15 minutes is dicey, especially if a game was in progress when the 15 minutes began.

I think our way is simple (just play until time is up), evenhanded and realistic and makes the best of a bad situation, so I'm OK with it.

BTW, we had a rule change in our area regarding handling incomplete matches. It used to be that if a split-set match wasn't finished, the team with the most games won. If each team won the same number of games, you added up the games won on all courts and the team with more games won that individual match. If there was still a tie, you spun a racket.

I heard that there was an incident at districts (or sectionals?) where the winner was decided by a racket spin. As you might imagine, the losers were incensed to have their season end in such an arbitrary way.

As a result, the rules have been changed. Teams may agree to play a 10-point tiebreak to decide the winner of the match. They have to find a court somewhere. Each team can designate any players who played in the original match to be their representatives. They warm up 10 minutes and then play. I do not know what happens if the captains cannot agree on whether to spin a racket or play the tiebreak.

I like this change. However if it were a regular league match, I would probably be just as happy to do a racket spin unless there were some playoff implications. Who wants to drive 45 minutes each way to play a tiebreak?
 
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