Is it possible to go frm 3.5 to 5.5-6.0 in one year?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Hrandyrko, Oct 6, 2009.

  1. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

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    That seems like a little extreme to me BP. A kid that starts at 3 and trains at a academy that plays 24/7 could be a almost at a pro or very high level at 15. Nadal was beating pro's at 14. Although that's not the norm.. I don't think any kids 18 or under will win a GS again like chang did at 17. I'm sure many pro's where beyond 5.0 at 15. Obviously chang did not go from 5.0-7.0 from 15 to 17.. Top ranked national 14yo's are atleast 5.0 or close. A kid can only do so much when he is small. A 12-13-14yo can develop very fast into a great player in only a few years. It does not take extensive 24/7 training at a academy. There is no reason why a kid who learns at 12-13-14 can not be competitive or be at a 5.0 level and be able to play with some players in a few years compared to those who have played since they where 8. It all depends on the players.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2009
  2. nfor304

    nfor304 Banned

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    Futures are not equivalent to division 1 college tennis. Futures is a higher level. The top div 1 players have rankings hovering around 800-1000 whereas the top seeds in a futures tournament will generally be around 250-300, with a ranking cut off of 800-1000. So only the very top college players even make it into the draw.

    All players play futures beginning their careers. Every single one including all of the current top 10.

    When a pro takes the leap from futures and challengers, its not because they have improved their game significantly in the space of a year or so, its because they have put it all together mentally.

    Ryan sweeting. In that match yeah he was missing easy balls. Why do you think that was? Why do you think he broke down? Is it because his ground strokes are technically not up to scratch?
    Its far more likely that he 'broke down' and started missing easy balls because he wasn't mentally as tough or mentally as prepared as Dent.

    Lets look at Federer. In 2003 he broke through and won his first slam, and then in 2004 he won 3 out of the 4 slams and was world no.1 the entire year. Was Federer of 2003 a technically inferior player to Federer of 2004?

    Again the difference was purely mental. Its amazing what a strong dose of confidence can do for a player.

    Your right that regular tour players play more consistently day in day out when compared to futures players. You know why? Its because they are stronger mentally. Not because they have technically superior skills.

    All those things you mentioned, strategy, breaking down, being over eager, they're mental skills.

    Of course there is a difference between playing grand slams and playing futures, its just not as massive as some seem to think it is.

    People seem to think of futures players as hacks, guys with incomplete games. Sometimes thats true but there are far more who have all the tools, all the shots, but just cant put it together on a daily basis.

    Power and consistency are great tools to have as a player but there's only 1 thing that ALL top 100 tennis pro's have in common, and that's that they are incredibly mentally strong, driven and determined. The only exceptions are with players who are very naturally gifted like Gulbis, Safin etc.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2009
  3. cadfael_tex

    cadfael_tex Professional

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    Who knows. Being painted with the broad brush of overestimation isn't fun though. Now you are probably right on me being a 3.5; I might be even a 3.0. But that is after not picking up a racquet since 1990 (except for 4 months in 2005) and still recovering from being medevaced out of Iraq a couple of years ago. I think I was at least a 4.0 back then but that predates this system so no computer verification. All I can say is I was reasonable successfull at highschool tennis in an area that has traditionally had a lot of good players (Austin, Tx).

    If you want to think I sucked then more power to you.
     
  4. goran_ace

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    Getting off the topic of NTRPs for a second - cadfael_tex, thank you for your service to our country.
     
  5. cadfael_tex

    cadfael_tex Professional

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    Thanks Goran_ace. wasn't fishing for that but appreciate it. Sorry if I got a little annoyed and hijacked the thread.
     
  6. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    you guys have got to admit, for a young man, the op doesn't mind to work hard for a living. when i was 14, my goal was to have a lot of money without having to work hard for it. :)
     
  7. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    I think you vastly underestimate how good a real 5.0 level player is. Sure, there may have been some anomalys like Nadal, Chang, Borg, Hewitt, etc. that were 5.0+ players at 15, but it is extremely rare for anyone to be a real 5.0 at age 15, unless like I said, they started at a very early age and dedicated their lives to tennis for at least 10 years. I think it's nearly impossible to reach 5.0 in only 4 years.
     
  8. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying that you "sucked". I'm just saying that the computer rating and the self-rating can be vastly different. That doesn't mean that a 3.5 computer rated player "sucks". There are lots of very good 3.5 rated players out there.

    Yes, and I also commend you for your service to our country. :)
     
  9. skiracer55

    skiracer55 Hall of Fame

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    There's another thread on this, same OP...

    ...which is Can a 3.5 become a pro? NTRP ratings are really interesting, because they're all about strokes and strategies through the 5.5 level, so you can kind of see a path forward if you look at the differences between levels. However, at 6.0, the description and the whole concept of what you're trying to do changes radically:

    6.0 - "Generally do not need NTRP ratings. Rankings or past rankings will speak for themselves. The 6.0 player has obtained a sectional and /or national ranking. "

    Now you're into another realm where the OP, in the other thread, started to talk abou the dollars and cents of being a pro, to whit:


    You say, "I was even thinking of making a living off of tennis."

    To a large extent, if you go pro, you have to make a living off of it, otherwise you don't get to play. Somebody said that the costs of playing the circuit for a year are $100,000 and that was some time ago, so that may be a low number today. Federer and players on that level probably make at least $100,000 a year from their clothing sponsors alone. Contrast that with a pro in the top 200 or so in the world. A pro at that level gets *some* sponsorship money, but mostly its freebies on clothes and rackets, so a pro at that level has to win matches and make money, or he doesn't get to fly to the next event. I think there's a number floating around that says you have to be in the top 200 on the ATP just to break even, not to make anything that you can put in the bank at the end of the year.

    So that's the reality, just as a business proposition, of what you're trying to do. Impossible? Not impossible, but in addition to having to have the skill, drive, rankings, and so forth, to get to the level you want, you have to have a sizeable chunk of money just to get to the place where you can begin to break even...
     
  10. Hrandyrko

    Hrandyrko Rookie

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    Lol, you know one reason I also wanted to be a stock broker was for the fact that I could do two of my most favorite things; all day, every day. Math and being at a computer. Being a stock broker just also seemed effortless to me. Read a graph, predict a rise, stock up and sell later.

    That's how some professions look to others on the outside. Many outsiders are oblivious to the obstacles people face on the road to success in their chosen art.

    However now I'm looking into pharmaceuticals when I go to college.
     
  11. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    Rare if you're talking about the percentage of everybody in the world who plays tennis, but among pros, like top 500 ATP, they were all 5.0 by 15. All the juniors playing Boys 16's at the Zoo are above 5.0. I was probably 5.0 at age 15 and I was no super star. And I base that 5.0 assessment on beating the number 4 singles player from Western Michigan that summer. I beat another college player that summer. But I lost to the guy who played number 1 for a small liberal arts college, 6-4.

    Anyway, in general, it's really hard to reach 5.0 if you start playing in your twenties or later. If you can even get to 4.0 by the time you're 16 or so, you're in much better shape. And I'm not saying this arbitrarily it's just that in the beginning, it's about sheer repetition, hitting thousands of balls. And when you're a kid, you have more time for that kind of stuff. So even if you can hit enough balls to become 16 or so, once you establish a decent foundation, you can play less later in life and still improve. It's just getting past the repetition phase, after that it's not just a physical/muscle memory thing, you can improve by deliberation.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2009
  12. Fedace

    Fedace Banned

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    I think more contructive points should be given to you. It is difficult but not impossible if you are incredibly talented. Probably 5.0 is more realistic goal.

    1. Your strokes will have to improve to a point of NOT having any weakness whatsoever. and you have to develop weapons like HUGE forehand or Huge serve.
    2. You have to get consistant enough to get into 30 stroke rallies every point while hitting hard around 70 mph groundies.
    3. Your serve will have to get into range of 100-110 mph on the 1st serves and be able to place them in the corners at Will and get about 60% of them in. and your 2nd serve will have to be around 90 mph with topspin.
    4. Your net play will have to improve to a point of having a very reliable volley and being able to volley 80 MPH passing shots with topspin with accuracy.

    just few of goals you have to keep in mind if you are going to be 5.0-6.0
     
  13. Hrandyrko

    Hrandyrko Rookie

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    Thanks Fedace! This is the EXACT kind of response I wanted from this thread. You hit the nail on the head. I appreciate your efforts.
     
  14. skiracer55

    skiracer55 Hall of Fame

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    I'm lost...

    ...you thought being a stockbroker was going to be a piece of cake, then you thought making a lot of bucks playing tennis was going to be a piece of cake, and now you're "looking into pharmaceuticals"? What does that mean?
     
  15. Hrandyrko

    Hrandyrko Rookie

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    Err? It means I don't want to be a stock broker anymore. I would like to be a pharmacist. Is there anything wrong with that?

    Furthermore, I did not EVER say making money with tennis or being a stock broker would be a piece of cake. I specifically said that I thought stock broking would come easily to me; especially because I enjoy mathematics in school and I love being on the computer.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2009
  16. cadfael_tex

    cadfael_tex Professional

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    I think you're on the right track with your last statements. Find something that you love and do it and the money will come (for the most part). If you just look at the world through monetary eyes then you'll always be looking for it and it's never enough.
     
  17. skiracer55

    skiracer55 Hall of Fame

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    Sorry...

    ..."come easy to me" equals "a piece of cake." If you now want to be a pharmacist, go knock yourself out...so what's your concept of tennis these days? Give it up? Keep playing? And if yes, why?
     
  18. jmjmkim

    jmjmkim Semi-Pro

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    If you are not a ranked Jr. by 14, then the best you will do is about 5.0 in about 5 to 10 years from now.

    It's like if you come to this country in Middle school, like when you are 14 yrs old or so, you will probably never be a native English Speaker. You will definitely get by with hight level business and academic vocabulary, but it wil be almost impossible to be like a native English speaker.

    If you are 4.0 at 14, that's pretty good and you can definitely become a teaching pro, but not an ATP pro.

    Any player playing even a city OPEN tournament are really, really good. And they are about 5.5 at least!
     
  19. Hrandyrko

    Hrandyrko Rookie

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    I'm not going to quit playing tennis. I'm going to throw all that I reasonably can at tennis. By reasonably I mean that I am not dropping out of school to pursue tennis or take risks that will affect my life after tennis.

    I will be organizing three hours of private instruction with my tennis coach after school each day. I'm not sure if he has other students at these hours though, so I will have to communicate.

    If I fail to achieve my goal, I will be certain that I have done the absolute best I that I could. I'll know for sure that how far I go in tennis will be a reflection of what I am physically and mentally capable of during that time. I will have no regrets.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2009
  20. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    anything is possible. sky is the limit. persue thy dreams!
     
  21. Hrandyrko

    Hrandyrko Rookie

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    :) Thanks Dozu :)
     
  22. Tennisman912

    Tennisman912 Semi-Pro

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    Randyrko,

    You do realize a stockbroker is a salesman, nothing more and nothing less right? Based on this thread I doubt you do. Regarding your goal, there is not much more that can be said except you probably have a better chance of winning the lottery than going from 3.5 to 5.0, let alone 6.0 in a year or two. Nothing wrong with aiming high but go hit with a D1 college player or a good pro and tell them not to hold back and you will be in for a very rude awakening. You are vastly underestimating how good true 5.0 is. After the wake up call, get a good coach, work on your game and enjoy the journey because it will be long and frustrating at times.

    TM
     
  23. Tennisman912

    Tennisman912 Semi-Pro

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    Catfael tex,

    With all due respect, it is comments like “Maybe 4.5; I've slept since then and I'm just going by the descriptions. But I did pick it up very quickly. The guy I'm talking about worked at the pro shop and gave lessons as a high school kid. I move on after that so I don't know what happened to him. I can remember he had tightly strung racquets and that it literally jarred your arm to hit his groundstrokes back. To me that sounds like "You have mastered power and/or consistency as a major weapon." that show how out of touch people are with respect to tennis skills. These types of comments make you look foolish and naïve. It also makes any comments you make about anything else suspect if you are that far removed from reality when it comes to your tennis level. As you said later, you would be lucky to be a true 3.5 yet threads like this are commonplace. Do some research before making comments about your level. These types of comments and input get old and make all tennis players look bad especially since you have probably been telling people for years you were a 4.5-5.0+.

    Good tennis

    TM
     
  24. Hrandyrko

    Hrandyrko Rookie

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    Thank you Tennisman.
     
  25. volusiano

    volusiano Hall of Fame

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    Hope I'm not nosy to ask here... Well, heck, you opened the door for the questions: How much are you paying your coach for 3 hours of private instruction after school everyday? I assume that's 5 days a week, every week, through the whole school year?

    Where are you going to get your coaching instruction in the winter time, and where are you going to play beside the instruction time in the winter time in NY? Do you belong to an indoor tennis club with unlimited access? How much is that going to cost you?

    OK, beside the 3 hours of coaching every day, I assume you'll also want to play for at least a couple of hours a day against worthy opponents, play on weekends, enter tournaments, etc. How much time do you plan to devote to tennis per day every day? How much time left in the day for you to go to school, do homework, etc?

    If your parents are that rich that they can afford to pay for all that in the first place, why don't you just tell them to send you to a tennis academy somewhere down south full time (assuming they'll accept you)?

    If you're really serious, you must already have a plan in mind. So share with us in details what you're planning for the logistical aspect of your training.

    Cindysphinx asked a very good question in one of the posts but I never saw you answer: Have you talked to your parents about this and what do they say? Are they supporting you 100% and can they afford to pay for all this?
     
  26. Hrandyrko

    Hrandyrko Rookie

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    I've spoken to my parents about this, and they are very "collegey". I always used to blab about going to Harvard and Yale. Then all of a sudden this tennis thing came in and college didn't seem as much of a priority as it used to. They're a bit angered. However, they do support me. I'm not sure if it 100%, but they're covering the cost of my lessons and court fees. My coach is 65 bucks an hour I think. In the winter, I will either play at Port Washington Tennis Academy or Carefree Racquet and Health club. My coach also drives over one other kid sometimes who I can hit and play a few sets with. I also do physical conditioning with him.

    My coach also said that once i start entering tournaments, he would be able to drive me to them and stay with me for all of my matches. He mentioned some price for that. But I forgot since that moment has not come yet.

    Not sure if my mental math is correct but 7(65*3) is 1395 dollars a week. That answers the price question.

    I've got more than enough time to do schoolwork. I don't get much anyway. I'm also awake longer than I should probably mention here =p
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2009
  27. Arzon

    Arzon Rookie

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    3 hours of private instruction after school each day? Wait til you get to high school. that homework's gonna pile up and you're gonna be pulling all nighters.

    Seeing that you show interest in Harvard and Yale, You are probably somewhat like me. around top 10 of your class and all. trust me, that work is gonna really start piling up starting sophomore year of high school and I don't think you're gonna have 3 hours after school each day for tennis.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2009
  28. Fedace

    Fedace Banned

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    Wow,, you have good supportive parents, and that is great. Also play on the High school team. You can get good competition that was as well. and playing in College is Not the end of the world. After college, you can still turn pro, if your game is good enough. Maybe you should AIM towards playing for Harvard one day....:)
     
  29. volusiano

    volusiano Hall of Fame

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    $1400 a week is close to 6 grands a months (assuming you pay extra for your coach to drive you to tournaments, or about $54K for a school year (9 months).

    If you can get your parents to spend that kind of money each year, why not look into joining a tennis academy full time if you're really serious? At least there, you'll have top coaching and the right environment to be in, and plenty of peers with the same goals as you to practice against.

    I'm not sure if spending all that money on a local coach is your best ROI or not.
     
  30. The_Steak

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    You do realize that you are spending close to 1500 dollars a week? Money doesn't grow on trees

    And if you do fail, which is very probable, you will have wasted thousands of dollars on a impossible dream. Are you Nadal? Federer? Sampras? Can you even compare to their talent? If you answer no to any of these questions then don't go for pro.

    You do not make money, you don't understand anything. You are 14! Why can't you just play college tennis play some tourneys when you grow up
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2009
  31. Swissv2

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    Seems like his parents "don't mind" fronting the costs. But 1500 a week doesn't even include gas! I bet the costs are closer to 1600 a week.

    In a sense, the OP is getting sponsored around $6400 a month + extra expenses just to play tennis.
     
  32. TennisNinja

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    If you're spending almost 1500 a week you might as well go to an academy oh my god that's a lot of money.
     
  33. nfor304

    nfor304 Banned

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    Why dont you just get your parents to give you the 50 grand a year they're spending on tennis? In 5 years you will have 250 grand....

    That's far more than you could realistically hope to make as a pro at this stage
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2009
  34. The_Steak

    The_Steak Rookie

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    OP should be considerate to the family, and not so selfish. Right now he sounds like a selfish, spoiled brat. OP is this really how you want to sound like?
     
  35. ZPTennis

    ZPTennis Semi-Pro

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    Weekend scrapper to almost pro level in 1 year. No...
     
  36. Vermillion

    Vermillion Banned

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    ZPTennis, can you tell him how long it took for you to get those chicken legs?
     
  37. ZPTennis

    ZPTennis Semi-Pro

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    haha. yeah. it takes quite a few years to get good calf muscles. don't remember not having them.
     
  38. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Yes, but did you, the juniors playing Boy's 16's at the Zoo, and the Top ATP 500 all pick up a tennis racquet for the first time in their lives at age 11?

    That's what some people here are claiming - that you can go from picking up a tennis racquet for the first time in your life to a true 5.0 level player within 4 years.
     
  39. xFullCourtTenniSx

    xFullCourtTenniSx Hall of Fame

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    Not unless you're Roger Federer + John McEnroe on the court for every waking hour of the day practicing.
     
  40. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Not even Federer made it to the 5.0 level within 4 years of first picking up a racquet. :shock:
     
  41. xFullCourtTenniSx

    xFullCourtTenniSx Hall of Fame

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    Well he wasn't practicing in every waking hour of his day now was he? :) He wasn't trying hard enough! :evil: And if we add John McEnroe's talent to his, then he/they'll certainly make it! (Assuming they still put in every waking our of his/their day into practice)
     
  42. Hrandyrko

    Hrandyrko Rookie

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    I have very nice parents.

    I am sorry I came across this way. It was not intentional. Just answering questions.

    I was never a weekend scrapper since the first few days I begain playing tennis.
     
  43. Jay_The_Nomad

    Jay_The_Nomad Professional

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    It gets toughter to improve as you advance in skill.

    1.0 to 3.5 is quite easy.

    3.5 to 4.0 is a little more tricky but if you plan carefully you won't get stuck in that 3.5 zone for long.

    But 4.0 onwards it becomes really tough to improve; firstly, you might have defects in your game that holds you back from going further; second, it is a little more tricky finding players.

    Best bet for you to find good players is to find a good coach who has access to good junior players & he/she will arrange hitting partners.
     
  44. Venetian

    Venetian Professional

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    3.5 is a weekend scrapper. You did say you're a 3.5 right? And even that is a self-rating right?
     
  45. goran_ace

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    Hrandyrko - ok, so that's great that you have supportive parents and you have the determination. Assuming you have world class talent and natural athletic ability, are a fast learner, and can sustain that determination, the problem I see would be your lack of match experience and tournament experience. You need to start playing USTA tournaments ASAP.
     
  46. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    wow, that is serious money is for playing tennis. if my parents were that wealthy and generous, i would ask for a leased 2010 Lamborghini instead. it would cost a lot less :)
     
  47. Vermillion

    Vermillion Banned

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    get that video up for us to see and we can give you better feedback.

    tell your parents that you need to videotape yourself to improve.
     
  48. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Not true at all. I know plenty of people that play tennis every day, 365 days a year, for 20-30 years and are still rated 3.5 players.
     
  49. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    yeah but the 3.5 players who play 365 days a year would beat the 3.5 players who only play on the weekends -- if not then something is very wrong :)
     
  50. Hrandyrko

    Hrandyrko Rookie

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    Thanks Goran. :)

    Will a digital camera be good enough for me to record some of my strokes? It's all I've got.
     

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