IS Murray in the same league as the Big 3 ?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by tennisaddict, Oct 16, 2012.

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Is Murray in the same league as the Big 3 ?

  1. Yes

    52.0%
  2. No

    48.0%
  1. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    Of late, a few TTW'ers are placing Murray in the same conversation as Fed, Nadal and Nole and making it a 'Big 4' discussion.

    Does the fact that he won USO and has a good H2H outside of slams ,make Murray deserve that recognition inspite of the fact that he currently has a poor H2H with the 3 on matches that count most (Majors) and also his slam record ( 1 vs 33) ?

    No one disagrees that in the next couple of years, he may have good chances to increase his slam count.

    Yet when it comes to discussions around the supremacy, aura, clutchness, greatness it seems ridiculuous to include Murray in the same discussions as Roger, Rafa and Nole.

    The top 3 dont lose to Bogomolov, Chardy, Donald Young for starters.

    What are your thoughts ?
     
    #1
  2. AnotherTennisProdigy

    AnotherTennisProdigy Professional

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    Does he hold a candle to the big 3 yet? Not yet, but I still consider him a part of the "big 4". There is nobody on tour that you can say has an equal career or is on equal footing with Murray.
     
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  3. Max G.

    Max G. Hall of Fame

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    Right now, yes. He's now shown the ability to beat them both in Slams and outside of Slams.

    Legacy-wise, obviously not, but in terms of current playing level, yes.
     
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  4. cluckcluck

    cluckcluck Hall of Fame

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    He still has a lot more to go before being in the same league as the others. Just because he's won a slam doesn't automatically get him in. It's a matter of consistency. If he has a successful 2013 and 2014 season, he could very easily be in there.
    It's way too early to consider him.
     
    #4
  5. AnotherTennisProdigy

    AnotherTennisProdigy Professional

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    If we are talking about level of play right now, then yes. Career-wise, no.
     
    #5
  6. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    Ummm... he's in the top three, the question mark is Rafa not Andy...
     
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  7. Homeboy Hotel

    Homeboy Hotel Hall of Fame

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    He's #3, USO, Gold Singles, Silver Mixed, SF/F in a slam..all achieved in 2012.

    If we talk about the top 3 of 2012, then he's part of that.

    If we talk about the top 3 of the last 5 years, then he's not part of that - he's part of the top 4
     
    #7
  8. BauerAlmeida

    BauerAlmeida Semi-Pro

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    No. Before 2011 people talked about Fedal and their dominance. Djokovic wasn't mentioned with them and he had a career like Murray has now. When he became a multiple slam winner and World number 1, THERE people started talking about the BIG 3.

    Murray is now like Djoker pre-2011. When he becomes a multiple slam winner and reaches 1, we can talk about BIG 4.
     
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  9. kalyan4fedever

    kalyan4fedever Hall of Fame

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    ahem actually big 2
     
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  10. *Sparkle*

    *Sparkle* Professional

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    ^^^^ This. He doesn't have as many big trophies as the others, but if you are going for legacy, why not start to include retired players too, or ones who have slipped down the rankings, but not yet retired? You wouldn't put Hewitt in that group, despite having more slams.

    Right now, he is the number three in the world, and going on recent form, that's earned. He's not played Nadal this year, but he did win their last encounter, and his recent form puts him above Federer, and right up there with Djokovic.

    Just as important is the gap between the top 4 and those below.

    Next year it will be Federer and Nadal who will have to prove they still belong in the top group based on current form. I'd be shocked if they didn't, but right now, their form for next year is less certain than Djokovic and Murray's.

    I'd also point out that to be in the same league doesn't require being at the same level. It just means that you belong in that grouping more than the next one. With the exception of clay courts, there's never much doubt that Murray should make the semis, same as the others.
     
    #10
  11. Danny_G13

    Danny_G13 Rookie

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    I think the 'no' leading by 2 is due to him losing in Shanghai. I polled this recently and it was heavily weighted after the US Open of him being part of a new big 4.

    Murray has Olympic gold, 5 slam finals, 1 slam win, and a boatload of individual ATP victories.

    The only thing missing from his repertoire is he has never beaten Federer in a slam. He's beaten the other 2.

    In terms of current form and level, if you give credit to Federer for regaining #1 slot after a fine grass season, then you must equally give credit to Murray for a similarly good grass season followed up by the US Open.

    Yes, he's in the same league.

    Before the Australian Open this year, he wasn't. But pushing Djoker to 5 sets in the semi was the breakthrough.
     
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  12. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    If he had to go up against all 3 in their primes, simultaneously.. He would be lucky to win 2-3 big tournaments a year.

    So no absolutely not.. He isn't even in the same area code as the other 3 guys. Prime for prime anyways
     
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  13. Achilles82

    Achilles82 Semi-Pro

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    I've always said. There's the big three, Andy Murray, and the rest of them...
     
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  14. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    /Thread :)
     
    #14
  15. papertank

    papertank Hall of Fame

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    Absolutely yes. He can beat Federer and Djokovic any day, and has beat Nadal twice in slams and on another occasions. Is the weakest link of the top 4? Yes, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be considered with them. He is leaps and bounds better than anyone ranked below him.
     
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  16. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

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    As far as beating "them" in slams, he beat Djoker in one slam this year, Nads in slams several years ago, and Fed never, so he could probably use a few more current wins over "them" in slams to make this claim.
     
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  17. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Funny thing is in a historic sense he is nowhere near them, yet on the tour he has felt up with them for the last 4-5 years, well a bit weaker than all 3 but much closer to them than anyone else is to him other than Del Potro in 2009 only.
     
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  18. Huanita99

    Huanita99 Rookie

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    don't mess with Rafa, 11 slams, enough said :)
     
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  19. A.Motoki.S

    A.Motoki.S New User

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    i personally think that Murray is making his way up there ... the Big 4 is almost on a different level from the rest of the playing field ... but the Big 3 is slightly a step ahead of them ... so to answer the question ... no not yet but I believe he will be soon
     
    #19
  20. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    He is absolutely in the same league. 1 major, olympic gold and 8 masters so far. He has beaten all three in big tournaments. He has consistently been a top player and will climb higher.
     
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  21. Huanita99

    Huanita99 Rookie

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    not so sure about that. I can hardly wait for Rafa to come back and win 4 majors next year. Rafito we miss you so much :)
     
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  22. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    Level of play wise and ability yes, even before this year. Results wise and in a sense of what if he retired tomorrow? Not even close.
     
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  23. Russeljones

    Russeljones G.O.A.T.

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    My thoughts are that it's harder to make a case for Federer being in the top 3 than it is for Murray. It's clear that Murray, Djokovic and Nadal are the future of men's tennis while Federer is fast fading away. Why would you want to deny the obvious and put Murray in his own bracket? He didn't have a Slam trophy so he wasn't part of the top, now he has one there are new standards. Strange poll.
     
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  24. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Right now I don't think he is. 1 slam is not enough for him to be. All of Fed, Nadal and Djoko have been #1, have dominated seasons, have won 4 or 5 masters and/or multiple slams in a season before. Of course Murray is not in that league yet, don't know if he will ever be. Still, he's the best player after the top 3 and he can beat any of the top 3 on a good day. I also think the top 3 can win on all surfaces. Murray is more specialized (one has to exclude clay).
     
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  25. Russeljones

    Russeljones G.O.A.T.

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    He is beating Federer and Djokovic regardless of what they've done in the past. Excuse the speculation but I am fairly sure he would have handed Nadal his backside had they met in this year's hard court season. You cannot arbitrarily decide to marginalise the guy because he is a late bloomer. That's like me saying Nadal and Djokovic combined come short of Federer's career achievements, hence they should be a sub-top-2-3 group never to be mentioned in the same breath as my idol. It doesn't work like that.
    Top anything describes the top dogs at any given time and Murray is a part of that group whether you like it or not.
     
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  26. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    That he can beat any of the top 3 is just what I wrote. Still, his achievements are not comparable to the top 3 at this point. I'm not trying to marginalize him, just pointing out he's not quite in the same class yet. Maybe you haven't noticed but the top 3 have had some colossal results and they've all had years with 3 slams. What's the best Murray has ever done? It's not an insult. Saying he's not quite in the same class doesn't mean he's worthless. Tsonga has also beaten Fed, Nadal and Djoko. That doesn't mean he's in the same class as them, does it?
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
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  27. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    "League" is different from a "class".
     
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  28. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    What's the difference?
     
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  29. Russeljones

    Russeljones G.O.A.T.

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    I think you are trying to rationalise your discrimination. Yes he is an annoying brat but he works damn hard and clearly has the talent. By arguing for a discrepancy in definitons of 'Top' you're just admitting to having a double standard.
     
    #29
  30. Jackuar

    Jackuar Rookie

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    @OP

    If that's the question, then I'd say its not even Big 3, just the Big-2, small-2 and others. Seriosuly, if not for his 2011 year, I wouldn't consider Djoker anywhere in the same sentence with Nadal and Fed. But again, it is "If not" - but he did it, so can't take that credit away from him.

    Like someone else said, Right now, in terms of form - its Big 4; career wise it will always be Big-2 for me. They changed the face of tennis - the impact was huge; Djoker and Murray are just slip-streaming in that glory; they never created one (They never will, if you want to consider the future).
     
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  31. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    No, he is not in the same league as Federer and Nadal for sure. He is not even in Djokovic's league yet at least. However, he is much better than the next level starting at the player ranked number five on down.
     
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  32. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

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    Murray and Nole are the big 2.

    Federer and Rafa are out.
     
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  33. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, Murray is in the same league as the rest of the top four, and has been for a while, despite not winning a slam until this year.
     
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  34. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    IMO, he has a foot in and a foot out.

    In: Like them is a Slam winner and has won multiple Masters titles and at least 1 other big title: the Olympic gold medal. Has as good a H2H with the others as they have with each other.

    Out: Unlike them is not yet a multi-Slam winner, still has a habit of losing in the early rounds of some tournaments to much lower-ranked players, has not yet won titles on all 3 surfaces (missing clay).
     
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  35. Terenigma

    Terenigma Legend

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    Even when he didnt have a slam, he was almost always in the last 4 of all the big tournements, last 2 years if you had anyone other than a fed/djok/nadal/murray in a semi-final you would be suprised and even then, i doubt many people would put him in the same catagory of the players ranked below him when he was clearly superior.

    Before the slam it could be argued it was top 3 / murray / everyone else. Now its top 4 / everyone else.
     
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  36. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    I guess it depends how you define 'league'. If it's the league of double digit slam winners then he's not - but neither is Novak. If it's the league of players who are demonstrably superior to every other player on tour then he is.
     
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  37. beast of mallorca

    beast of mallorca Legend

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    This I fully endorsed.
    But wait for him to complete his career and I'm sure that both of his feet will be in:)
     
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  38. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    I also thought it was an excellent summation of the situation - but I would say that as I'm one of his vicious acolytes.
     
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  39. beast of mallorca

    beast of mallorca Legend

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    I am too . But not as vicious as you. I reserve that for Rafa :)
     
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  40. jaggy

    jaggy G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, I do believe he is
     
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  41. Antonio Puente

    Antonio Puente Hall of Fame

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    To date, two characteristics have differentiated him from the group. One, consistency. Murray has a habit of disappearing for months at a time, through stretches where he's not even competitive. You just don't see that from the other three. Two, prior to the Olympics and U.S. Open, clutch play in big events. So, in late 2012, having one foot in and one foot out is an apt description. The fear with Murray, however, is that he could, at any time, pull the foot out and go on a three month walkabout.
     
    #41
  42. heftylefty

    heftylefty Hall of Fame

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    Quoted from making sense.
     
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  43. Tony48

    Tony48 Legend

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    In the sense of having a slam, yes he's in the same league.

    But the same could be said about del Potro, but in 2009, no one called it a "Big 5" or a "Big 4" (excluding Murray in favor of del Potro). Djokovic, Nadal and Murray have consistency across all surfaces, so perhaps when Murray becomes a much more formidable contender on clay, his status as a member of the "Big 4" will be less in doubt.
     
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  44. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    It took me a while to vote because it's a tough question, but ultimately I voted no. Obviously he can beat any of those guys much more often than anybody else on the tour. He even has a winning record over one of them, but I only put Novak in the same sentence as Federer and Nadal after his 2011 season. The reason he's in the same sentence now is because of the consistency, and overall level of play, which was some of the highest level play that's ever been witnessed, maybe better than both Federer and Nadal's best seasons. I literally ran out of superlatives last year trying to describe Novak's level of play, especially his returns.

    The big thing is the consistency for me. Murray still went on auto pilot this year at IW, he's not as good on clay, and he still doesn't have that "aura" where you just believe there's no way in hell that he'll lose to anyone ranked outside the top 4. That's the feeling I get when I watch the other 3, and often times they prove me right no matter if there playing Ferrer, or Tsonga or Berdych etc... I mean, yes they can lose to someone outside the top 4, but I guess what I'm trying to say is I think when players outside the top 4 walk onto the court against Murray they think they have a chance even if it is slim, but I'm not sure all the players think that against 1 of the other 3. IMHO Murray is more susceptible to an upset, even now, and that is the main reason why I voted no. When one of the other 3 play sometimes I just think: Yeah this guy is going to get destroyed. I don't feel like that no matter who Murray plays especially the later in the tournament it gets.
     
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  45. beast of mallorca

    beast of mallorca Legend

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    Del Potro was not consistent enough to be included in the big 4. Yes he won a Slam, but before that and even now he was never consistent enough to amass Masters 1000 and be in the finals of GS consistently. Murray has.
     
    #45
  46. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    [​IMG]
     
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  47. TTMR

    TTMR Hall of Fame

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    In reality, there's only a Big One. Nadal has only shown consistency and dominance on clay. He has fewer slams on non-clay surfaces than Djokovic, and if it weren't for a systematic slowdown of hard courts and grass, he'd probably have even fewer. He's just never been a recurrent threat off clay, only an intermittent one. He's also riding Federer's coattails; he emerged solely as a Hegelian rival to Federer (again, thanks to favourable conditions and
    Federer's decline post-2006/2007).
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2012
    #47
  48. adil1972

    adil1972 Professional

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    murray won us open because of rain delayed djokovic semi final match, if it was other way around, he would have lost the us open final

    my point is that murray won because of rain
     
    #48
  49. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Why didn't you win any Slams because of rain? Why didn't I? Why didn't Berdych? Why just Murray?
     
    #49
  50. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    So it's the rain now is it? What happened to the wind?? :)

    Incidentally, Murray had a rain-delayed semi-final at 2008 USO. I take it that was the only reason Federer won? :wink:
     
    #50

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