Is Nadal-Djokovic the greatest rivalry in world history?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by 6-1 6-3 6-0, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. sbengte

    sbengte Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    8,802
    This would have become an interesting rivalry if peak Nadal in 2011 had kept it more balanced and won a few matches when Djokovic came of age. It took Nadal's fav surface , a drop in Djoko's level (combined with a personal tragedy) for Nadal to start winning against him again. It remains to be seen where their rivalry stands when a new improved powerful Nadal comes back to face his nemesis.
     
    #51
  2. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,269
    Location:
    Chile
    So?, he's still dominant. You cannot exclude a surface from the h2h.
     
    #52
  3. tennisMVP

    tennisMVP Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2011
    Messages:
    507
    I think Nadal-Murray will be the top rivalry on tour in 2013-2015. But currently Nadal-Djokovic is the top rivalry on tour.
     
    #53
  4. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2012
    Messages:
    11,128
    Location:
    NL, Canada
    So you think Nadal would still lead the H2H if 14 of their matches were indoors, and only 4 were on clay? The biggest advantage Nadal has in the H2H is not that he actually leads it by a pretty large margin, it's that he's beaten Federer at Wimbledon and twice at the Aussie Open, while Federer hasn't beaten him at the French Open. Nadal could beat Fed a thousand times on clay from this point on and it wouldn't change many peoples views on anything.
     
    #54
  5. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    12,476
    Location:
    Australia
    Depends on which surface they meet on regularly.
     
    #55
  6. tennisMVP

    tennisMVP Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2011
    Messages:
    507
    Imagine if there were 2 slams on clay per year. Then the 8-2 head2head at slams would be something absurd like 13-2. Be thankful for small mercies is what I say.
     
    #56
  7. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2009
    Messages:
    14,598
    Is Novak retiring at Xmas?
     
    #57
  8. tennisMVP

    tennisMVP Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2011
    Messages:
    507
    Well, he just lost the US Open to Murray, lost Roland Garros to Nadal, didn't show up at Wimbledon, and had way too much trouble with Nadal at Australia. The problems are obvious.
     
    #58
  9. Feather

    Feather Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    3,632
    Location:
    Bangalore, India
    Wazz up NSK? Looks like you are confused a lot :)
     
    #59
  10. Tafmatch

    Tafmatch Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2012
    Messages:
    295
    It's not even a 'great' rivalry. A rivalry is not about stats but about conflict. Djoko and Nadal are too much alike to make it interesting.
     
    #60
  11. World Beater

    World Beater Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,751
    yeah on clay...

    good for him

    are you confident that nadal will continue his winning ways in 2013 against novak???

    the clay matches will be 50-50 at best in 2013 and djokovic will have the huge advantage on hard courts and small edge on grass courts.

    This rivalry is only going one way - that is in novak's direction.

    Nadal better pray they only play on clay, and even then he would still need some luck to beat novak after such a long layoff.

    Novak has dominated nadal since 2011 and will continue to do so...
     
    #61
  12. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,114
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    And? Do you realise that 11 of Djokovic's 14 wins over Nadal were on hardcourts? And before 2011, that was 7 out of 7 on hardcourts.

    I need to see Nadal in action first. If he's playing well on the clay, then certainly.

    On what do you base these assumptions?

    False. Nadal won 3 of their 4 matches in 2012.
     
    #62
  13. World Beater

    World Beater Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,751

    Novak has an advantage on hardcourts, which is the majority of the circuit. Since his dominant year in 2011 he has been 2-3 on clay against nadal, and convincingly beat nadal at wimbledon in 2011. He will also have the advantage in the fall season where nadal has been woeful.

    I dont why you keep bringing up his record on clay against novak on clay in 2012, since the frame of reference is 2011 when djokovic became the best player in the world. Before that certainly nadal was better than the still maturing novak djokovic.

    I base my assumptions on reasoning. It is highly unlikely that nadal will return to his best form on clay so soon, and he will need close to it to beat post 2011 djokovic.

    Is it possible for nadal to come out and dominate on clay like he always does? Yes, but unlikely after such a long layoff. He is not going to be match tough or match sharp by the time the french rolls around to beat novak, as long as nole is in the draw.

    Nadal has not forgotten to play tennis, but he will need time to gain those fine margins that allow him to win close matches.

    Djokovic has regained #1 since the time nadal left the game. Nadal in contrast has been fishing and cycling.

    You tell me who has the better outlook. LOL.

    I would say that nadal will probably win rg in 2014 but 2013 will be too early.

    Djokovic will continue to dominate nadal since 2011 maintaining the edge on hardcourts, cutting into nadal on clay and beating him on most other surfaces including grass should they meet.
     
    #63
  14. tennisMVP

    tennisMVP Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2011
    Messages:
    507
    "World Beater", Djokovic didn't maintain his edge on hardcourts in 2012. The Australian Open final....? Really? If that's an edge its the most unimpressive edge in history :lol:

    And in 2011 Djokovic beat Nadal in straight sets twice. Which surface? Both were on clay.
     
    #64
  15. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2011
    Messages:
    5,270
    Who won the match?
     
    #65
  16. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,114
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    2011 is gone, my friend. Heck, even 2012 is over as far as tennis is concerned. The present situation of the Nadal vs. Djokovic rivalry is considerably different compared to this time a year ago. This time last year, Nadal had lost 6 finals in a row to Djokovic on all 3 surfaces, including in 2 major finals. At the present time, Nadal is on a 3-match winning streak against Djokovic, having convincingly strengthened his position as the king of clay, back to his old dominant self.

    LOL. Djokovic has almost always been ahead of Nadal on hardcourts in their head-to-head, even before 2011. Before 2011, Nadal would always win both the closest, and the most important, matches, on all surfaces, while Djokovic's wins would always be on hardcourts in 2 straight sets. 2011 saw Djokovic change the dynamics of the rivalry, to the point where he was out-Nadalling Nadal on the tennis court. In 2012, though, it changed again.

    I firmly believe that Nadal got rid of his demons during the 2012 Australian Open final, strangely enough, despite the loss. He looked content after the match, rather than unsettled. It was obviously bad to lose after leading 4-2 in the fifth set, but just getting into that position had restored Nadal's confidence that he could beat Djokovic in the future.

    Djokovic's grandfather passing away may have had some hand in the result of the 2012 Monte Carlo final, but it was still an extra boost of confidence for Nadal when he won the title for the 8th year in a row. The 2012 Rome final was a close match, yet Nadal won it in straight sets, avenging the previous year's loss. And the 2012 French Open final, with so much at stake, saw Nadal triumph.

    We'll see. We need to see Nadal in action in 2013 to have a better idea on that.

    The European clay period is more than 4 months away yet and the French Open is 6 months away. We've got many tournaments before then. Nadal will probably play the Abu Dhabi exhibition tournament, Doha, the Australian Open, Indian Wells and Miami before he gets on the clay.

    Nadal hits with a load of topspin, so has a high margin for error. That's why he's so good, he can be powerful and aggressive, while at the same time, he has a high margin for error so that even on a bad playing day, he usually does well.

    It might have done Nadal good to have had many months away from tennis. If Nadal still has the physicality and the desire for success, the break will have done him brilliantly.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
    #66
  17. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    14,915
    You keep repeating this same thing over and over, but Nadal has not yet defeated Djokovic off clay since all of those 2011 beatings. His defeats against Djokovic on clay tell us nothing about his future matches off clay. It remains to be seen if the current Nadal can defeat Djokovic in a slam off clay.
     
    #67
  18. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,114
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    You say that like it's a big thing, when Djokovic has only beaten Nadal in 3 out of 17 matches off of hardcourts. Even on hardcourts, Nadal has registered some big wins over Djokovic.

    Why are you so certain that Djokovic can beat Nadal in a major off clay? Based on 2011? Djokovic may have finished 2012 as a world number 1, and deservedly so, but I never got the feeling that he was back to his 2011 self towards the end of the year, just that he was the best player in a year where all the top guys did some good.
     
    #68
  19. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    14,915
    I am not certain but until Nadal does actually beat Djokovic in an off clay slam again, Djokovic is the favorite.
     
    #69
  20. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,114
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    At the Australian Open, Djokovic would be the favourite, seeing as he's world number 1, defending champion etc. while Nadal has spent half a year out of the sport. But who knows how it will look in a year's time.
     
    #70
  21. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    2,705
    I thought it was Nadal-Rosol... oh wait, Nads has to win to make it a rivalry.
     
    #71
  22. 6-1 6-3 6-0

    6-1 6-3 6-0 Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,657
    Yep, just like the Federer-Roddick 'rivalry'.

    Oh wait, it's not a rivalry at all, since Nadal and Rosol have only met once. That's like saying Federer-Sampras is a rivalry.
     
    #72
  23. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,269
    Location:
    Chile
    I think it will depend basically on how he's physically. He was not fine when he came back in 2009 and I do wonder if he would have ended up losing interest had things stayed like that.
     
    #73
  24. World Beater

    World Beater Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,751

    I would agree with you except that Nadal's momentum had been severely curtailed. Nadal thrives off of winning and playing matches in succession. He had won RG and struck back against novak on clay.

    But all of that was stopped at wimbledon and since then nadal has only gone down, and novak is back to #1.

    Whatever momentum nadal had is gone, and djokovic - nadal is definitely in djokovic's camp. The burden is on nadal to prove he can get back to the top after such a long layoff - nadal is a great player but he is not superman.

    Novak in contrast finished 2012 in a grand way beating one of the best masters players of all time in federer.


    I do not agree that rivalry changed that much against novak in 2012. Nadal won 3 matches on clay, a surface where he is supposed to beat novak and everyone else. Nadal just "held serve".

    Even though djokovic won in 2011, nadal was always going to be the favorite considering his achievements on clay.

    Before 2011, even though novak held the edge against nadal on hardcourts, nadal was still getting him back on hardcourts in big matches - slams.

    That has pretty much changed since 2011, and 2012 did not do anything to turn back that tide.

    The tour is always improving. Murray will be better next year after his success in 2012. Djokovic will have more confidence after finishing 2011 strong. I expect del potro to get better as well.

    Nadal on the other hand has to go back to the drawing board. He has health issues to worry about and fitness. Those other guys are working on their games and playing competetive matches while nadal was fishing and cycling.

    Even if we assume that nadal had gotten back even with djokovic in 2012, he has definitely lost whatever ground he had made up. All the top contenders have a head start on him.

    Lets see what happens.
     
    #74

Share This Page