Is Nadal toast or does he have another miracle in him?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by jackson vile, Jul 5, 2011.

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Nadal make it or break it

  1. This is it for Nadal, he has come as far as he can.

    37 vote(s)
    43.0%
  2. This is a serious challenge, however Nadal will eventually overcome it

    49 vote(s)
    57.0%
  1. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    The sensationalism in general and spite of Nadal is well known on the TW forums. Many hurt Federer fans feel they have finally reaped their revenge that they so desired of Nadal, again.

    What? Again, no that does not make sense. What newer posters may not know is that the decline of Nadal has been written in stone many a time, but with no avail. Much like the "righteous" ones that deemed; "The world will end on May 21, 2011".

    But this time things seem different. Nadal has not looked as energized, hungry, etc as before. Rather he has looked incredibly vulnerable since his USO win 2010. Even against Federer at the FO a defeat seemed incredibly possible at one point.

    However, Nadal has faced adversity and prevailed every time. It seems that he is almost always able to perform some form of miracle whether it be an improved deadly backhand, incredibly improved volley skills, a large increase in service speed, he always seemed to have some other gear he went to for those clutch points.

    Putting your own feeling aside, vote on whether or not Nadal has solutions left or if this is finally it for him.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
    #1
  2. 8PAQ

    8PAQ Banned

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    I think you should stick to Federer bashing. Unless of course this is disguised Federer bashing thread in which case I stand corrected.
     
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  3. Stinkdyr

    Stinkdyr Professional

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    Djoker is the GOAT.
     
    #3
  4. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Paranoid much? This is how hyper sensitive you guys are. It's alright, you are a sensitive bunch.

    In all "seriousness", this is about a true, non-emotional, analysis. It is obvious many Federer fans are very jaded and hurt, but that does not mean that we can't use our brains once in a while. LOL
     
    #4
  5. Ray Mercer

    Ray Mercer Semi-Pro

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    Jackson how are you doing brother? Your mom told me she heard you whimpering in the basement for hours on Sunday. Don't worry, I think he's still got a few slams left in him.
     
    #5
  6. Stinkdyr

    Stinkdyr Professional

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    One thing I find troubling for the Nada fans is that even his butt-pirate snarl couldn't save him vs Djoker.
     
    #6
  7. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Eh, miracle? He's 25, tennis great in the prime of his career, it will be a miracle if he doesn't win anymore slams not the other way around. He's expected to win more slams as he should be considering the level of play he showed this year and his age.

    Vulnerable? Not at all Nadsy boy, he reached 7 finals in a row and has basically only lost to one guy, he was never at any point of his career as consistent at going deep into tournaments as he was this year. If Novak didn't bring his game to the next level this would have been the best year of Nadal's career no doubt.
     
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  8. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Bionic Poster

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    Good post Zagor, threads like this confuse me. Even WITH the Novak losses he's still having a great year.
     
    #8
  9. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    There's nothing confusing about this thread, it's Jackson Vile's usual passive aggressive nonsense.

    Aside from Novak Nadal is going to town of field this year and I really doubt Novak's gonna be in every final waiting for him, his level will have to drop at some point(as Nadal himself said after the match, not just for Novak but in general). Mental aspect is very important in tennis and Novak's in Rafa's head a bit at the moment but all it takes is one win to possibly change the momentum.
     
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  10. 8PAQ

    8PAQ Banned

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    All you use your brain for is to find new ways to make Fed look bad. That seems to be your only purpose around here.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
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  11. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    LOL at the OP trying to sound poetic. Is there a bigger joke on this forum? Seriously.
     
    #11
  12. TennisFan3

    TennisFan3 Legend

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    Not sure what Nadal can do here, outside of getting another coach and returning to his aggressive roots when he was 17?

    If Toni/Rafael had any strategy of beating Novak, they would surely have implemented it by now. I read a Spanish article, in which Toni admitted he has no solutions against Djokovic.

    So yeah, unless Djokovic's level drops off, Nadal will need to improve massively or hope for someone else to upset Djoker.

    I mean the worst part of the season is coming up for Nadal. Not sure what is left for him, the only positive is the F.O victory for this entire year. And he's not stupid. The other 2 titles he won was when Djokovic was not playing - I think he knows that.

    I guess, it won't be a bad idea for Nadal to skip the entire year after the UsOpen, and spend some time working on his game for next yr. This will also give him physical rest which he urgently needs.

    Nadal's push has to come in F.O/Wimb 2012 . That's the last straw for him..
     
    #12
  13. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    This thread is great but it is too late. Didn't that guy like retire Sunday?
    I will miss the biting of the trophy. That never gets old.
     
    #13
  14. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Bionic Poster

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    Come on TF3 man. Come on.
     
    #14
  15. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    I agree,TF3. Nadal clearly has no answer for Djokovic. It's pathetic to watch him continue to use falied tactics against him as if they will suddenly start to work. He is going to have to do something or else he is finished.
     
    #15
  16. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Bionic Poster

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    You know what, you guys are right. If he can't beat Novak he may as well retire :rolleyes: The same way Federer and Djokovic did when they lost to Nadal 4 and 5 straight times.
     
    #16
  17. ssonosk

    ssonosk Semi-Pro

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    he needs to get a backhand, and should try playing closer to the baseline :s
     
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  18. ssonosk

    ssonosk Semi-Pro

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    Oh and even if Nadal never beats Nole again, he can still have a good tennis career
     
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  19. rommil

    rommil Legend

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    If by miracle you mean Rafa being injured one day and incessantly doing cartwheels the next, then there is more to come. We can eat toast for the meantime while we watch these apparitions transpire.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
    #19
  20. TennisFan3

    TennisFan3 Legend

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    Buddy, I am not saying he cannot beat Djokovic. Just that he needs to make adjustments, and it will take time. He has to stop being stubborn and acknowledge that he cannot hit through Djokovic, and develop tactics keeping that in mind. And (although Nadal will never do it ) get some outside "supplementary" help to think outside the box. Toni has admitted before, that there is nothing he can teach Rafael about tennis.

    Let's be realistic here. If Nadal couldn't win on grass/clay - he sure as hell ain't on hardcourts. I notice that this year, he's had virus, foot problems, knee issues etc etc, and played 51 matches. I think Nadal needs to take a lot of rest, play selectively this year, and then come 100% fit and healthy next yr. Then he has a great shot at F.O/Wimb..
     
    #20
  21. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Nadal will overcome it, like he has every other challenge, such as the likes of Youzhny, Blake, Berdych and Gonzalez giving him trouble, winning Wimbledon, winning a hardcourt major, winning a career Grand Slam etc. It might take a while, though.
     
    #21
  22. bms2011

    bms2011 Banned

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    These people saying Nadal is done are ridiculous. The guy lost in the final of Wimbledon, to an on fire Novak Djokovic. Grass is the worst surface for a guy like Nadal to play on. I know that the people that say this barely play matches/tournaments and don't understand that losing can happen on any day and just because someone beats you doesn't mean that you still can't have success. A piece of advice: Get your head out of your *** before you make posts about peoples careers over.
     
    #22
  23. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Actually,Djokovic really wasn't on fire in that final. He played well,but it was not at a level that could not have been beaten. Nadal just folded,had no answers especially on the backhand side,and collapsed mentally. It was the worst he has ever played in a slam final by far. He is finished if he doesn't do something different. He has got to improve his game immensly,and maybe even consider having a different coach come in and help him. He is stuck in a rut right now big time.
     
    #23
  24. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Djokovic was on fire in the first 3 games or so of the second set, when there was briefly a feeling that he would crush Nadal. The first set was close until Nadal blew a 30-0 lead while serving to stay in the set at 4-5. In the fourth set, Nadal failed to take his break point opportunities.

    Let's be honest, if the match had gone into a fifth set, Nadal would have been favoured.
     
    #24
  25. Polaris

    Polaris Hall of Fame

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    Nadal is going to be just fine, but jackson vile needs a shoulder to cry on. :)
     
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  26. mcenroefan

    mcenroefan Hall of Fame

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    He'll win more slams though I'm not sure he will win many if Nole is across the net against him in the final.

    To me, the more intriguing questions are whether he will regain the #1 ranking, whether he will come close to topping even 250 total weeks (forget consecutive weeks) at the #1 ranking for his career, and whether he will find a solution to Nole.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
    #26
  27. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    The difference is he was a lot younger then. Rafa has lost a step and is not nearly as explosive as he used to be,nor is he as strong mentally. Completely different situations if you ask me.
     
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  28. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Very interesting; Yet 1) he already has a second coach that has done really well to help him over come past obstacles and 2) rest is a very good thing, yet consider that Nadal has stated that he needs a lot of practice to really dial everything in.
     
    #28
  29. Rippy

    Rippy Hall of Fame

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    I don't see there as being a "serious problem" for Nadal. He's playing pretty well, Nole is just on an amazing run at the moment.
     
    #29
  30. Fed Kennedy

    Fed Kennedy Hall of Fame

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    It's mental for him now. How will he respond? He was lights out against Murray and then joker just kind of snuffed him out. He still has to get throught those early round matches. It will be interesting to see but I bet him to win many more slams.
     
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  31. TennisFan3

    TennisFan3 Legend

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    1) He has no second coach of any real validity. Are you referring to Roig? Nadal has to get a named, proven coach who can help him flatten out of his groundies (show him what he did when he was 17 yrs old) not some spanish clay courter dude who will tell him to play more pusher tennis, and run around his backhand.

    2) Dunno about that. If he skips this year after UsOpen, he will have plenty of rest and practice both.

    See the thing is, it's a war out there. Nadal really has to somehow avoid facing Djokovic this year. The more beatdowns he gets, the harder it will get for him, mentally in each match..

    What Nadal needs to do is play a little, get to QF/SF level, and that's it.. HE should practice hard, improve tactics for next yr. Finally face Novak next in the clay court/grass season of 2012, when he has improved his game.. Otherwise this yr could get really ugly for Nadal. I think he will have lost his confidence against other players also, like we saw in the beginning of the FO..
     
    #31
  32. bms2011

    bms2011 Banned

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    The guy is the number two player in the world and has 10 majors. I don't think that he needs a guy sitting at home on a forum website telling what he needs to do. Experience shows that you most likely are a 10 to 15 year old Federer lover that would like to bash other players. And before you or anybody else pulls the "Oh your a *******." I am a Federer fan.
     
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  33. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Obviously,your ability to read people is malfunctioning big time. For one,I am not a 15 year old male,I am a female in my early thirties. I am also not a "Federer lover" as you put it,and am not even a Federer fan at all.

    Also,I don't give a damn about him being the number 2 ranked player in the world,or the fact that he has 10 majors. He is obviously struggling right now and has not looked right all year long. Bury your head if you like but it still doesn't change that the Nadal of this year has looked like a zombie,and is a shadow of what he was just last year. Your insulting and juvenile posts don't change that no matter what kind of tripe you post.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
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  34. bms2011

    bms2011 Banned

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    I said guy not meaning your sex. I meant it in the same way as some men call women dude. I am not using it to describe your sex. The guy that won the French Open isn't playing right. Ummm alright. He was just in the finals of Wimbledon. He beat the guy that beat Novak in France. And I do not see what is insulting about my post. I just said that he doesn't need somebody on a forum telling him what he needs. If anything you are being more insulting in your post than I was in mine. And excuse my calling you a Federer fan. And just so you know that your insulting, juvenile posts, giving some "wonderful" advice to Nadal, aren't going to change a thing either buddy. What you said in that last sentence is very hypocritical. You aren't helping out Nadal by saying he needs a new coach. You really should learn the game before you come and insult me. Have a nice day.
     
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  35. TennisFan3

    TennisFan3 Legend

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    I agree. The Djokovic in the Wimb Final was nowhere close to the Djokovic in Rome 2011 F for instance.

    Even Toni said that Djokovic didn't play that well, but Nadal got outplayed anyway.. It's a measure of the lack of confidence in Nadal..
     
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  36. Biscuitmcgriddleson

    Biscuitmcgriddleson Professional

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    Might have heard of this player called McEnroe.... after he lost to Lendl in 85 he never won another final. I personally feel that Nadal will win another final, but there is a possibility he might not. And grass isn't the worst surface for a guy like Nadal to play on. That is just laughable to even believe such a thing.
     
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  37. bms2011

    bms2011 Banned

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    High topspin, western forehand grip, full polyester, mainly spin serves? That is just so well suited for grass.
     
    #37
  38. Agassifan

    Agassifan Hall of Fame

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    Jaded from what? Celebrating 16 slams and 257 consecutive weeks?
     
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  39. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

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    JV please note bolded part of your OP. Quite clearly you are trying to do some seemingly clever backhanded Federer bashing.
    Seems some Rafa fans are hurt actually, not Federer ones. Its Rafa fans who are posting and creating threads like headless chickens.

    Anyway, Rafa will be back. He still has a good chance of reaching 16, although Nole being in the mix will make it tougher for him. So start behaving like a man, fcs.
     
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  40. Biscuitmcgriddleson

    Biscuitmcgriddleson Professional

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    This grass yes. If his game wasn't suited for it how the hell did he win two Wimbledon's and make 5 finals to date. The days of him spinning in serves are long gone and this grass takes spin much better than other surfaces (besides clay). If this surface doesn't take spin, how did he beat Federer in 08? Hitting him off the court? I don't think so.
     
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  41. RyanRF

    RyanRF Semi-Pro

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    Why does every single loss for Fed or Nadal turn into a "Is ____ done now?" thread.
     
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  42. bms2011

    bms2011 Banned

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    Nadal changes his game to suit the grass. ESPN showed the height of his forehand in France and in England and France was about a foot higher than on grass. Nadal's regular game (high topspin) is modified on the grass. Until 2006 he hadn't changed his grass game at all. 2010 was the year that he modified his regular game (high topspin, spin serves) to hard court. I have played several times on both synthetic, and natural grass. I have also played on Har-Tru clay (slightly different than red clay), and I play regularly on hard courts. In order of bounce it goes, clay, hard court, than grass. I use a semi-western forehand grip and can hit pretty well with a wester and, on grass, that big western forehand bounces just as high as my regular semi-western forehand grip. How did he beat Federer in 08? He modified his game. I think so.
     
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  43. Biscuitmcgriddleson

    Biscuitmcgriddleson Professional

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    You probably don't play on grass courts that are similar to Wimbledon's courts. Also, I think it would be fair to say that this grass takes the spin better than the USO, WTF in London, and Paris (Bercy). Another poster also recently played on grass and noted that bounces were uneven and anything but uniform. Wimbledon's change in grass has been well documented and it doesn't play like other grass events.

    Also, not saying you aren't a good player, but I highly doubt you produce anything close to the spin that Nadal does.
     
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  44. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    Rafa's level is still high enough to take almost anyone outside of Djokovic 2011 IMO and with Rafa's dip in confidence, even a Djoko 1-2 levels below 2011 form may be too much I think.

    To be perfectly honest, I don't think Rafa is beating Djoko EVER AGAIN.

    Besides mental issues and such, look at the matchup right now.

    Djokovic is EXTREMELY solid on both sides. Rafa is only great on one and rarely has good BH form nowadays.

    On average, Djokovic serves better even though Rafa had some amazing serving periods in their encounters this year(and still lost).

    Djoko's return is miles better than Rafa's.

    Djoko's movement is also a bit better at the moment(and Rafa certainly won't get faster with the mileage he has on those legs).

    As Tony himself said, if they had a viable strategy, they would have used it.

    And you have to be pragmatic about this, there really isn't anything they can do realistically(unless you think it's realistic for a 25 year old to revert to a more flat hitting style that he hasn't used in 8 years) outside of waiting Djoko out and hoping Rafa maintains his own level.

    And I don't agree that they haven't tried different things. They tried a aggressive approach(1st set IW, 1st set WB), they tried to go DTL more with the fh(Rome), heck even moonballing to get some desperately needed length off Rafa's BH side(which tends to drop an attackable short CC ball nowadays).

    Rafa's problem is very similar to Fed's with him. EVERYTHING needs to fall in place in their game to have a shot against their nemesis. One thing goes off and it's game over instantly.
     
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  45. DeShaun

    DeShaun Banned

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    It seems to me that waiting passively for a nemesis' level to drop is a poor solution. Novak has been sustaining this level for seven months now, playing serene tennis since his Davis Cup victory.

    He is a new man. He seems to be fulfilling his potential, not in leaps and lurches but sure-footedly, while consolidating gains along the way. I doubt this is a fly-by-night purple patch that he is in.

    I think it is up to Rafa to raise his game, not wait for Nole's to fall. Nole's defense is suddenly on par with Rafa's (due to Rafa slowing down from excessive mileage). Nole's return game is best on tour. He serves bigger. Can hit offensively from both wings/is less exploitable in rallies. His shot tolerance is greater than Rafa's. He is at once faster AND more patient. Altogether, these skills Novak has cultivated present Rafa with a poisonous combination a little too hot for Rafa to handle at the moment.

    Witness Rafa thinking he could serve his way past Novak...90% of first serves in set number 1 landed in (until half way through the tenth game) 90%!! Didn't work because Novak's nerves are steadier than Rafa's nowadays/have been since before the clay season. Rafa is being challenged not by a lone weapon or two but an accumulation of ways Nole can hurt his opponents.

    There is just a lot of work for Rafa to do because Novak has consolidated many advantages.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
    #45
  46. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    Not really. Not when it's THE ONLY solution.

    Look, it's simple. You can't beat a guy that is EXTREMELY SOLID off both wings with just a forehand. You just can't.

    Djokovic can always redirect balls to Nadal's BH and from then it's as easy as pie as nowadays Rafa's only answer with his BH is a short CC ball which basically gives Djokovic control of the point almost every time. As many commentators have noted Rafa can RARELY hit a DTL BH with pace so Djoko has one less corner to defend.

    One of Rafa's great advantages in the past was his ability to get around and hit a slapped BH. It was not a great shot but it had pace. I seriously doubt Rafa can hit shots like this in a match with Djoko(and not just with him) anymore:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V6joI-Yc9E

    Also, Djoko hasn't acumulated "changes". The only different part of his game is his improved serve, or should I say old serve, before todd messed it up. If you look at his old matches with Nadal, the GAMEPLAN is pretty much the same, the only difference is FOCUS and EXECUTION. Djoko would dump a BH now and then, he would have trouble with the fh on the stretch somewhat and so on. Now almost all those balls are coming back to the opponent(Nadal) and with interest. I mean Djoko had many close matches with Nadal in the past, even while making more mistakes, like in Hamburg 08', Queens 08', Olympics 08', all their clay meetings in 2009, their USO meeting
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
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  47. bms2011

    bms2011 Banned

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    The grass that I have played on was at the Tennis Hall of Fame. Two of the times that I played there was after the Pro Tournament so, the courts were all beat up. The bounces were very, very inconsistent. The guys that I worked with at the Hall of Fame said that it is a different kind of grass than Wimbledon but it plays almost the same as Wimbledon. And my spin was around 5 or 6 feet over the net but, even then the ball barely bounced as high as my regular grip so I couldn't imagine Nadal's ball bouncing any higher than some other pro players groundstrokes.
     
    #47
  48. Biscuitmcgriddleson

    Biscuitmcgriddleson Professional

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    You can't imagine Nadal's stokes bouncing higher even though he has some of the most vicious spin in the history of the game? I might agree with you that old grass is not as suited for spin as what is currently at Wimbledon, but the fact remains that the Wimbledon courts take spin better than just about all of the American(Summer) and European(Winter) hard courts.

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=385637&page=2
     
    #48
  49. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Djokovic's game isn't ideal for grass either, and yet he has been successful because it plays the way it does today. I'm pretty sure Nadal and Djokovic are the first two players to win Wimbledon utilizing a Western grip (although I COULD be mistaken).



    Didn't I point out that Nadal's backhand is predictable and you laughed at me? Too funny.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2011
    #49
  50. Russeljones

    Russeljones G.O.A.T.

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    Just another in a long line of threads, which are supposed to be dripping with witty sarcasm.
     
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