Is Novak the most perfect player (Open Era)?

Discussion in 'Pro Match Results and Discussion' started by jackson vile, Jan 29, 2012.

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Does Novak have the least amount of weaknesses, and is he the most pefect?

  1. No weaknesses; the guy is near perfect

    56 vote(s)
    34.4%
  2. Not even close; Federer is far more perfect with fewer weaknesses

    107 vote(s)
    65.6%
  1. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, but who else can do that? Nadal is the only player that can exploit Federer's weakness consistently.

    And who's to say that Nadal is the only player who can determine and exploit weaknesses? Surely there will be another player that can exploit Djokovic's weakness (Federer and Tomic have already demonstrated that Djokovic has problems with the slice).
     
  2. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    He lacked 1) mental strength 2) consistency of that high level of tennis, and so on.

    That does not equal no weakness, that does not equal perfect, and that does not equal most complete.
     
  3. ChanceEncounter

    ChanceEncounter Professional

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    No one who has ever played lacks a weakness. That's why people are arguing who is the 'most' complete. Like saying which tree is the tallest. It doesn't mean that any of the trees are infinitely tall.
     
  4. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    So did Nadal for that matter.
     
  5. monfed

    monfed Guest

    The only man who's troubled Fed in his prime is Nadal on clay(slam level+masters) and slow HC(Miami).
     
  6. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    You omit that before 2011 Federer was 13-6 against Djokovic.
     
  7. TheNatural

    TheNatural Legend

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    and Sampras in MACAU with that SV master class. :) and David Nalby
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2012
  8. monfed

    monfed Guest

    :lol:

    Loved that HC :shock:
     
  9. Apun94

    Apun94 Semi-Pro

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    Nadal also tried to use the slice against Jokovic, that didnt really work for Nadal. Unlike Fed, Jokovic doesnt have a clear weakness, so it's going to be difficult to exploit his game. U just have to dogfight against him to defeat him...
     
  10. Apun94

    Apun94 Semi-Pro

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    Plz tell me what i said previously is so flawed. i am really interested to know what i said was wrong when it's obvious that Jokovic has a more complete game than Fed.
     
  11. Apun94

    Apun94 Semi-Pro

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    *******s like you seem to be forgetting that Fed had a 1-4 losing record to Jokovic in 2011. Yes, he beat Joko at FO and was close at the USO, but *******s like you seem to be (conveniently) forgetting the straight sets defeat at AO, defeat in Dubai and Indian Wells. These defeats also count for sth. Plus, if Fed is so old, how did he almost beat the best player on tour at USO and beat him at FO. The fact is that Fed is extremely great player right now. He only folds against Nadal. Otherwise hes a beast.
    Dont bring the age excuse into discussion, thats not it. *******s, plz stop making excuses whenever Fed looses.
    Fed was GREAT in his prime but never has players like Nadal, Jokovic and Murray during his prime. He wudnt have won more than 12 Majors if he was in the same generation as Nadal and co.
     
  12. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Fed was 13-6 against a slightly younger Djokovic, and please dont use the age excuse... Anyway, to disregard age in sports seems a bit uninformed or naive. Or clueless.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2012
  13. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I rank Frew mc Murray higher than Bill Murray, and Bill Murray higher than Andy Murray.
     
  14. fps

    fps Legend

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    Your logic is flawed. Because Federer lost several times to the best player on tour currently, but also beat him and nearly beat him again at the AO, age has nothing to do with the results?? Because he's nearly as good as Djokovic at the moment, age has nothing to do with their matches?? This isn't even an argument.

    Federer is an excellent player right now. But it is natural for all players to decline from approximately age 25-26 onwards. It has happened before, it will happen again.
     
  15. Apun94

    Apun94 Semi-Pro

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    When did Fed nearly beat Jokovic at the AO?? He lost in STRAIGHT SETS! The reason age is not such a big factor is because Fed is still playing so well and thus age is not affecting his game THAT much...
    I really do believe that even peak Fed wud have had difficulty beating Jokovic 2.0, Fed wudve never dominated Jokovic
     
  16. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Avoided this thread since I've posted in enough ones that nearly take the award for hyperbole, however this is how I see it.

    Of course he's not the perfect player, no-one is. He has a great backhand and forehand, incredible movement, brilliant returns and mental strength that has overtaken Nadal's. But there are areas where he is average.

    These are the serve and the volley.

    His serve can be pretty handy, and his second serve is pretty good. But really it's average. He doesn't serve many aces and can't get enough cheap points on it sometimes. In 2008 his serve was very impressive, then he runined it after changing his service motion and when he put it back together it was weak but consistant. Recently it's been not so consistant and it is maybe more powerful but not that much so.

    His volleys have improved and could be improved further, but his overheads are not up to par.

    Here's the thing though, the way surfaces have gotten slower, the serve and volley are probably the least important shots today. Thus he has weaknesses, but not ones that kill his game.
     
  17. piece

    piece Professional

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    His forehand was very streaky. Backhand was pretty much perfect though.

    In regards to the poll question, we could do a rough skills comparison.

    Serve: Federer
    Return: Djokovic
    Forehand: Federer
    Backhand: Djokovic
    Slice: Federer
    Volleys: Federer
    Drop Shots: Even
    Passing shots: Federer
    Movement: Federer (though this is a close call)
    Defense: Djokovic (another close call)
    Overhead: Federer
    Fitness: Even
    Clutch: Even
    Mental Strength: Too early to call this one.

    If we judge completeness by the number of categories a player comes out ahead in then Federer is more complete. Yet this kind of judgement is problematic because it neither gives appropriate weighting to the categories - which is important since, for example, serve prowess matters a lot more than drop shot prowess - nor does it give much of an indication as to how big the gap between the players is in a certain category or even how good a player is in a certain category in an absolute sense.

    If we are to understand "completeness" as an absence of weakness, the question then becomes which of the two players has larger aggregate weaknesses across the (appropriately weighted) categories. It's possible that Federer's backhand is the single biggest weakness for either player on any of the categories, however if Djokovic's less glaring but more numerous weaknesses add up to a bigger overall deficit then it is reasonable to conclude that Djokovic is the less complete player.

    I voted for Federer because I believe that overall his game is less deficient than Djokovic's.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2012
  18. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Movement does not go to Federer. People are saying Djokovic has surpassed even Nadal in movement, and Federer certainly didnt ever move better than Nadal. Only on grass would movement be close, on hards and clay it is clearly Djokovic.

    Fitness, even? Please, Federer is very fit, but Djokovic is fit beyond words these days, which is shocking considering his career previously but it is what has happened. He is even outlasting Nadal physically in matches which Federer again never did. The guy can play 9 or 10 sets in 2 days and still not feel a thing.

    Also funny to see someone mentioning Federer almost beating Djokovic at the Australian Open recently. I wish I could borrow special **** goggles to ses the things they see sometimes.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2012
  19. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Dont forget Nalbandian. Starting from Wimbledon 2003, beat Federer at the 2003 U.S Open, and that summer prior to that, beat Federer at the 2005 TMC, beat Federer twice in late 2007. Also played him close on clay, losing in a 3rd set tiebreak, and at the 2004 Australian Open.

    Nadal nearly beat Federer at Wimbledon 2007, and beat him in Dubai 2006 (very fast hard court), so I would say he troubled him on all courts except indoors.

    Apart from Nadal and Nalbandian there isnt anyone who consistently troubled prime Federer though. Djokovic probably would have as he was already troubling Federer by late 2007 as an up and comer, beat him in Canada, and blew 7 set points in the first 2 sets of their U.S Open final.
     
  20. piece

    piece Professional

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    I consider movement to be a combination of footwork and speed. Prime Federer is the best mover I've ever seen. His footwork was considerably better than Djokovic's currently is and his speed was about the same as Djokovic's.

    Nadal's movement isn't quite what it was. Djokovic might move better than Nadal these days, but not better than Nadal from 2005-2009. Regardless,
    this has no bearing on the claims I made in my previous post.

    During his best years, Federer rarely, if ever, looked tired in a match. Granted he didn't often play in the kind of marathon matches we've seen Djokovic play of late but this doesn't mean he isn't as fit as Djokovic. You might be right on this one though, I'm really just going on my personal impression of how each guy has pulled up in their more physically demanding matches. Either way I don't think it's going to be a huge difference.
     
  21. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Thanx for some balanced, reasonable posts, Piece.
     
  22. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Again, with all criteria Federer is not the most complete and has more weaknesses than Novak.
     
  23. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    That's right and he did defeat Federer while he was still peak and Novak was sub-peak
     
  24. wy2sl0

    wy2sl0 Hall of Fame

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    Federer's forehand is considerably better than Novak's when he is in God mode. His backhand is considerably worse however.

    Serve goes to Federer, in all situations.

    Movement, Federer, however movement on defense easily goes to Djokovic.

    Mental? Djokovic.

    Volleying? Federer is better, but we don't really know how good Djoker is.

    I would say it is pretty even. The problem is Nadal has exemplified a weakness in Federer which can be abused to turn the tides in a tight match. Djokovic doesn't have that sort of weakness, so I would have to say as an overall player Djokovic would take the award.
     
  25. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Federer has beaten Djok when it was vice versa.
     
  26. chippy17

    chippy17 Semi-Pro

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    quite simple answer: no
     
  27. Apun94

    Apun94 Semi-Pro

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    So you are saying Jokovic is not the most perfect player till now? How so?? His Forehand is one of the best on the tour, his backhand is the best, he has a great first serve and the best second serve on the tour. His return of serve is the best. Physically hes the fittest, has great willpower and hunger, never goes away. Has turned into a mental giant, plays his best on the most crucial points. Has great flexibility and balance, is a decent volleyer and the best at defensive lobs. Plus, he is very consistent. Seriously, he doesnt have a clear weakness, what else can you ask for in a player...
     
  28. chippy17

    chippy17 Semi-Pro

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    yes I am:

    techincally: I do not think his serve is amazing, his volleying and overheads are weak

    his game is obviously the best for the current game (ie slow courts) hence why he is world no.1

    subjectively he is lacking natural talent and flair he is a Lendl type player and I have nothing but respect for that but there were and are many more talented players but he is the one who has worked and worked to become the player he is, his fitness and defensive skills are amazing and his mental strength is beyond even Nadal

    so perhaps he is the most perfect player for the type of tennis being played today but faster courts would show up his deficiencies...
     
  29. fundrazer

    fundrazer Hall of Fame

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    Eh, there's never going to be a perfect player. To call Novak "perfect" is just silly. To be perfect, one would need to be basically the best in the Open Era at every aspect of the game. It's really quite silly if you think about it this way, because Novak is nowhere near the best when it comes to certain parts of his game.
     
  30. Li Ching Yuen

    Li Ching Yuen Legend

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    Basically tennis didn't exist until Djokovic picked up a racket.
     
  31. devila

    devila Banned

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    lol at fedfreakfans. i noticed that the fed pigeons are so quiet. no twittering of love from ljubicic, roddick and mcenroe brothers. LOLOLOL


    they thought djoker would disappear because of his background with war and little time for junk food, and no spoiling rich parents and sponsors giving out millions of dollars to him.
     
  32. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Lololololol
     
  33. fundrazer

    fundrazer Hall of Fame

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    Maybe you don't pay attention??? JMac is a total bandwagoner and is already aboard. Isn't PMac also the one who predicted Djoker would be number 1 last year? I remember he correctly picked him to win AO.
     
  34. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Another banwagon thread. (yawnnnnnn...)
     
  35. devila

    devila Banned

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    patrick mc pleaded for a new coach for federer when nadal left fed in tears.
    pat claimed that djoker was not feuding with roddick after roddick's snarky "novak has 16 injuries" comment.
    pat needed to keep roddick happy because he was davis cup captain for roddick the "macho american" mental midget.

    pat was bitter after the federer loss and said nadal was too good for djoker in the aus open.
    john mc said he was sad that federer was not the best ever, as long as nadal destroyed him on clay.
    there's a difference between a phony attention-seeking, surprised reaction and a true respect for djoker.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2012
  36. 3lite

    3lite Rookie

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    Fixed your post buddy.
     
  37. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    The answer to this question, is that it depends. It depends on how you define a "perfect player" for the "Open Era". Conditions have varied during the Open era, so under what conditions? Right now, with these surfaces and this equipment? So, both of those terms can be interpreted broadly. There is no perfect player. Any player will have some relative strengths and weaknesses and it depends on the opponent, as to whether the weaknesses are exploited and the strengths neutralized. There are various players and various conditions at big stage venues at the majors, so a lot can happen and predicting men's tennis with any sort of great certainty is a dangerous proposition.

    I do think the Novak Djokovic has become a great player after several years of being on the cusp. He's now developed into a fantastic player, especially during the biggest matches. He has made two previous significant weaknesses into great strengths, namely his physical fitness and mental toughness.

    Yet, besides Djokovic there are two other great players at the top of the men's game and this idea that Djokovic is just going to sweep majors quite easily is I think off the mark, but we'll see. Djokovic is going to find out what both Federer and Nadal have found out, that you can go from #1 to #2 before you know it. Could we have 2-3 different winners at the majors in 2012? We could. I'd be very surprised if Nadal does not win 1-2 majors this year. I still think that Nadal, Federer,and Murray as well will provide substantial resistance this year at the majors. Even Djokovic vs. Murray at say Wimbledon could be tough in my opinion, much less matches versus Nadal and Federer. Let's see how the clay season and the French Open plays out next.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2012
  38. lawrence

    lawrence Hall of Fame

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    The fact that you are basing his success relative to that of Nadal and Federer in the so called "Fedal" era somewhat contradicts your claim doesn't it?
     
  39. piece

    piece Professional

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    Just to clarify, I'm comparing Federer from 2004 to early 2007 to Djokovic of last year.

    -I can understand you giving fitness, clutch and mental strength to Djokovic but I still think that someone could reasonably go the other way in these categories.
    -I really struggle to see how Djokovic can be put above Federer in movement.
    -Djokovic definitely edges Federer in defense but to say it's not even close suggests to me that you need to have a look through some of Federer's matches from his best years to refresh your memory. A good place to start would be the 2004 AO. A couple of other matches that come to mind for great defense are his 2004 match against Coria in Hamburg and his 2005 match against Agassi at the AO.
     
  40. devila

    devila Banned

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    novak's very sly and sneaky. he only gives his a+ effort during important points.
    his strength is he isn't scared to confess about his need to change. plus, he can beat the best players on their favorite courts.

    federer denies that he needs to fight and improve on clay. french open easy draw isn't proof of supreme clay talent.
    lendl and kuerten proved that they know how to destroy federer on clay AND hardcourt.
     
  41. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Well Federer bagelled Kuerten on clay.
     
  42. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    As a big Sampras fan, I'm pretty convinced that Sampras is the Most INcomplete player of the greats.
    How people forget with time. Anytime the rally was started, all us big Sampras fans were scared to death; especially against Agassi who pretty much owned him off the ground. Without his incredible serves (1st & 2ond) he might not have been a top ten player and pretty surely not a top 5 player.

    Sure he he hit a big running Fh here and there, but he often struggled to hold (even with his great serves) and had to serve his way out of trouble time and time again. Thats what hes famous for. And Probably broke serve of others far less often than Joker, Fed, Agassi, and Nadal do.
    His volleys were just better than avg and his fitness was more suspect than Jokers 3yrs ago. Bh was clearly a weakness except for some hot streaks.

    Novak really has no weakness to speak of, with excellent height, Fh, Bh, and slice. Maybe best return of serve ever! Really nice volleys when he uses them and a way better than avg pair of serves.
    Big strengths are Backhand and returns, with very little drop off after that on the other strokes. I expect he would Route Pete, as I think his return is good enough to handle Pete's serve due to how he can punish returns like Agassi, but make a ton of returns in play like RF and Nadal.
     
  43. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Don't forget his mental strength, drop shots, lobs, strategy, etc. He has it all, and there is nothing you can exploit. Wither Federer there is plenty, really can't say about Pete as I was not watching tennis there, however from the sound of it Pete was more complete than either Federer or Nadal.


     
  44. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    That reminds me of an incredible match against Arazi that he won at the AO (2nd or 3rd round, I think it was). He won it in straights (two tie-breaks) despite almost losing every single point when the ball was in play (I'm exagerating, of course, but that was the feeling you got when watching it). Arazi would produce three winners to go up 0/40, and Sampras would just blast five winning serves past him, it was just an incredible serving performance.
     
  45. TennisFan3

    TennisFan3 Legend

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    I'm wondering what kind of Sampras fan you are, if you didn't observe how he modified his style midway through his career. Sampras, in his younger days, was an ALL COURT player. He could rally anyone from the back of the court. For evidence see any of his early matches, not least his maiden UsOpen triumph.

    Midway through his career, especially after Tim Gullikson's death, Pete adopted a HIGHLY aggressive style of play which was composed of shortening points, rushing to the net and taking more risks on serve. His basic aim was to litter up the stat sheet and go for a big shot as soon as possible. This was in part due to his illness (Thasselmia Minor) because of which he faced stamina issues, and didn't feel strong enough to rally for hours. He talks about this in his book too.

    Anyway, after 1996, Pete pretty much gave up on the French Open and just focused on Wimbledon. He just went for winners on pretty much everything including low percentage shots such as service return winners, running forehand or DTL backhand. His ground game worsened as his fitness suffered too. But he was still able to hold the top spot because of his remarkable ability to play 1-2 tennis, his half-volleys, serve and the tremendous mental strength. I haven't see any better big match player than Pete. If there was someone you could bet your life upon, it was him.
     
  46. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Wow, I did not know that he suffered from a disease. That really increases my appreciation of Pete, and on top of it he completely changed his game to make it work for him. And he still achieved GOAT status!
     
  47. devila

    devila Banned

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    sampras loved running forehands but he didn't like chasing after dropshots and moonballs. djoker would ANNIHILATE HIM 6-4 6-4 7-5 most times, even at wimbledon.
     
  48. Agassifan

    Agassifan Hall of Fame

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    on the present lame ass grass courts, perhaps. Pete would still win on traditional grass
     
  49. Apun94

    Apun94 Semi-Pro

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    Heres how it really is:

    Forehand: Federer
    Backhand: DEFINITELY Jokovic
    Slice: Federer
    First Serve: Federer
    Second Serve: Jokovic
    Volleying: Federer
    Mental: Jokovic
    Physical: Jokovic
    Footwork: Fed (on offence), Jokovic (on defence)
    Return of Serve: Jokovic
    Passion/Will to win/Determination/Hunger: Jokovic
    Strategy: Federer

    Theres not much to choose between them, but it's the Backhand and (sometimes against Nadal) mental game that gives Jokovic the edge.
     
  50. fps

    fps Legend

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    Oh rubbish. That might be true of the two as they are, with Federer's place up at tennis' summit with the other gods secured, staring down the barrel of 31 with twins and a wife. But we don't know a thing about how this guy trained or how hard he worked to get where he is. Nor how hard he continues to work to be THREE IN THE WORLD at an age when most pros with this many miles on the clock are struggling to get on court at all, or gone from the game completely.
     

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