Is peak Djokovic better than peak Federer?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by chandu612, Nov 12, 2013.

  1. Indio

    Indio Rookie

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    What's always overlooked in this older-newer-better debate is the number of players in the available-talent pool. I assume, because world population has grown significantly, since, for example, the 1960s, that the number of tennis players has risen as well, unless tennis has declined in popularity, and I've seen no proof that it has. Does it not stand to reason that a majors draw of 128, with a larger pool of available talent, would be generally stronger today than in the 1960s? Correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  2. Nextman916

    Nextman916 Professional

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    No way....Peak Federer took the ball WAY earlier than Peak Djokovic on almost every shot. That alone would make all the difference already.
     
  3. NEW_BORN

    NEW_BORN Professional

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    Another aspect to consider is that out of the 31 matches played between the two, Federer had won the first set on 21 occasions, but ended up losing on 5 of those encounters.

    I'd say peak Federer would not have allowed Djokovic to mount a comeback from a set deficit and would have finished him off in straights.
     
  4. gabybackhand

    gabybackhand Banned

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    I wouldn't say most believed like Cash that Serena was done in early 2007, but I don't think the feeling was she was the future GOAT then either. Henin had taken over as best in the World, and most believed at that point was the one on her way to being best of their generation, even over Serena. Despite Serena's recovery and good year in 2007, including kicking butt to win that Australian Open, this view remained unchanged as Henin had her most dominant year ever, including beating Serena in 3 straight slams.

    Safin was a disappointment, and he seemed to be getting his brain under control in 2000 and by the end of 2002, but also dealt with injuries. Safin was the only one to beat peak Federer in a slam not named Nadal, and he crushed peak Sampras in a slam final.
     
  5. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    If you consider only a 1-year peak, Federer 2006 compares very favorably to Djokovic 2011. In slams, Roger went 27-1 in 2006 whereas Novak went 26-1 in 2011. Overall, Roger posted an impressive 95% win record (92-5) in 2006 compared to a 92% win record (70-6) for Novak 2011.

    If we considered an extended peak, then Federer wins hands down. Novak has yet to accomplish what Roger did from 2004 thru 2007. Roger's peak years can even be considered from late 2002 thru early 2010. Novak has a long way to go.
    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  6. gabybackhand

    gabybackhand Banned

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    Peak Djokovic is almost unbeatable. The level he played at the first 8 months of 2011 is probably the highest level ever by a man. That Nadal who even peak Federer had nightmares with, was so incredibly easy for Djokovic to beat, just indicates the excessively high level Nole was playing at.
     
  7. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    Surprisingly enough the only person to have beaten Djokovic in a slam that year was 30 year old Federer and he almost beat him at the USO. Had two MP's. So I can only imagine what prime Federer would do against him.
     
  8. gabybackhand

    gabybackhand Banned

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    Things aren't always that simple though. When you have two all time greats, the older all time great almost always has some success. Navratilova at 34 beat Graf at the U.S Open and beat her again at 36. Rosewall at 37 beat Laver two straight years in the WTF final. Would you say prime Rosewall would dominate Laver, and prime Navratilova would dominate Graf?

    I bet a 30 year old Djokovic would have an occasional win over prime Federer too. When you have two all time greats, even one past their prime, they aren't going to be shut out usually.
     
  9. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    I wouldn't really say Djokovic is an all time great. Not yet anyway. He will get there. All the points above are very true but the game wasn't as physically taxing back then as they are now. So in this era for a 31 year old Federer to bagel a prime Djokovic on hard court is really special. I'm not saying Djokovic would never beat prime Fed. But out of 10 matches I would see Federer winning about 7 of them.
     
  10. Federer20042006

    Federer20042006 Banned

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    But Djokovic pulled out several close matches that year to post that season. Murray in Rome, Nadal in Miami, Federer at the US Open...he was very close to losing all of those matches.
     
  11. robertharris

    robertharris Banned

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    Had Nadal won that Miami 3rd set tiebreak I also think that entire year would have been completely different. No way would Nadal go from beating Djokovic in a major hard court final to losing to him regularly on clay and grass, lets put it that way.
     
  12. Le Master

    Le Master Semi-Pro

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    I can agree that it's safe to say that with a double in population (which the world population has done between 1968 and today), if the pool of tennis players has doubled as well, then it stands to reason that a more talented draw is likely. But as the pool of tennis players grow, the main differences will be on the margin, rather than the top. And this of course is over large population increases. Thinking that pro tennis players born in 1987 are likely better than those born in 1981, even on the margin, probably has no statistical grounding. And thinking the best player born in 1987 is probably better than the best player born in 1981 simply because of an increase in the pool of players is absolutely absurd.
     
  13. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    Berdych was a pushover at that time, Murray thoroughly choked in the final (worse than he did the previous year, at least he'd forced a TB that time) so that leaves past-his-prime Federer as the only legit opponent. Thank you for proving my point. At least in 2008 Federer was still prime, albeit ill. And Tsonga at least made some headway in the final.
     
  14. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Is it a fact that Djokovic played his best tennis in these matches?
     
  15. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    There is one argument why peak Fed can defeat peak Nole.

    Fed is a bad matchup for Nole. Even Fed past his best can still beat him.

    So, if both are 100%, Fed wins anyway.
     
  16. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    It doesn't matter.
     
  17. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, I think it is. Djokovic had the best results during that span and was in his best form.
     
  18. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    It does matter because "peak" means "playing best tennis".
     
  19. mike danny

    mike danny Legend

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    He was obviously playing better than federer up to that point
     
  20. mike danny

    mike danny Legend

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    frankly with all due respect i don't see peak federer losing to murray twice in GS finals in less than a year. Actually i do not see him losing a slam final to murray at all
     
  21. Nextman916

    Nextman916 Professional

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    quoted for truth.
     
  22. Forehand Of Doom

    Forehand Of Doom Banned

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    Peak Federer is far superior to Peak Djokovic.

    On clay: Peak Federer was very competitive against Nadal around 2006. Nadal was a much better clay court player than he is now, mostly due to his explosive speed and amazing stamina.

    On grass: No contest, nothing needs to be said.

    On hard: Basically no contest either. Djokovic has been a top 3 HC player consistently, but Federer was a dominating force in HC for a long time.

    I think people get this crazy idea that Peak Djokovic is superior to Peak Federer because Djokovic is a bigger threat to Nadal than Federer ever was. But this can easily be explained by two factors: Nadal has always been a bad matchup for Federer, and the opposite can be said of Djokovic. And, most importantly, Peak Fed played against a better version of Nadal, especially on the surfaces where they played the most (clay and grass). Nadal has become a better HC player, but by no means he is as dominant currently as a HC player as he used to be on clay.
     
  23. mike danny

    mike danny Legend

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    Well peak djokovic is a bigger threat to nadal than peak federer ever was. That much i can admit.

    Peak Federer lost big matches only to Nadal. Nobody else was beating him consistently in big matches like nadal. Djokovic unfortunately lost big matches to murray as well. No offense to murray fans, their guy is a great player but nowhere in the league of Nadal for ex.

    Therefore peak federer would not lose big matches to players not named Nadal the way nole did with murray.

    Peak Fed's level was higher because only one guy was able to beat him. ONE. But there is more than just 1 guy who can beat Djokovic
     
  24. MonkeyBoy

    MonkeyBoy Professional

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    I think Djokovic's 2011 is a level of play higher than Federer ever had. But Federer's stretched out prime has been more impressive. Federer definitely had a higher level of play on grass.
     
  25. MonkeyBoy

    MonkeyBoy Professional

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    Yet even back in 2006 Federer still managed to have a losing record to Nadal on outdoor hard courts.

    Nalbandian was able to beat Federer in Federer's prime on a consistent basis.
     
  26. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    This doesn't have to do with the topic. We are talking about how Fed matches with Nole.

    Rafa is a bad matchup for Fed. Nole is a tough matchup for Rafa too. But Fed matches well vs Djokovic actually.

    So, I don't see how comparing how they both do vs Nadal has any relevance.

    I mean, if we go down that road, Nole has a losing record to Roddick, Fed owns Roddick, so he owns Nole. Doens't seem to work like this, right?
     
  27. mike danny

    mike danny Legend

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    Federer won all 3 of his slam meetings with nalbandian between 2004-2007. And in one of them he totally destroyed him(USO 2005)
     
  28. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, those guys were posing problems for Fed early. But Fed developed his game and he solved them and dominated them later.
     
  29. mike danny

    mike danny Legend

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    Anyway pointless thread.
     
  30. Chico

    Chico Banned

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    This. 10peakdjokovicisbeterthanpeaknadals
     
  31. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Is it a fact that Djokovic played his best tennis against Federer at FO and USO in 2011?
     
  32. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    I think it's pretty much a fact that both matches with Federer there were 2 of his very best perfomances against top players outside of Australia.
     
  33. robert.s

    robert.s Rookie

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    Yes, Federer wanted to settle the score with Rafa in the slams back in 2006. He tried to find Nadal to beat him in AO or USO, but, as it turned out, he was put to sleep by lesser guys, so he didn't have the chance to show Nadal the difference between a 2/3 and a 3/5. You see, there was no need for Federer to prove a point at that time, far weaker players like Youzhny already did that for him.

    Nadal was a mediocre hard court player prior to 2008-2009 season and that is a fact proven by his poor record in the slams - you know, the biggest stage in tennis world. The fact that some guys are still trying to suggest that Nadal > Federer prior to 2009 on hard courts, because of some wins in a couple of low level tournaments, is beyond belief. Federer pulverised the guys the pulverised Nadal. I'd say this makes things pretty clear as far as the situation between Federer and Nadal is concerned.

    Federer was undoubtedly and by far the best HC player in his prime (2004-2008 ). 10 out of 12 slams on hard court prove this affirmation quite well don't you think?
     
  34. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Yes they played one match which Nadal won. Not much of a sample.
     
  35. chandu612

    chandu612 Guest

    Lol Chico. After some 130 odd posts, the consensus looks like Peak Federer is way better than Peak Djokovic. Hope you enjoyed it.
     
  36. MonkeyBoy

    MonkeyBoy Professional

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    He lost to him at USO2003, and in a best-of-five Master's cup match. He also lost to him multiple times in masters.
     
  37. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Why do you keep replying to posters that you claimed they are on your ignore list ?

    Do you know how to use the ignore list from the control panel ?
     
  38. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Nalbandian played dream tennis on occasions, for instance the Masters Cup. No shame in losing to him. In their last 14 encounters, the score is 11-3 Federer.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2013
  39. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    So, you are saying that Djokovic in 2011 played his best tennis only at AO?
     
  40. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    No, I'm saying Djokovic played his best tennis in 2011 full stop.
     
  41. beltsman

    beltsman Professional

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    You think that prime-Federer is only a tad better at the net? :shock:
     
  42. gabybackhand

    gabybackhand Banned

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    Djokovic is very overrated. He is lucking out to be peaking when Federer is way past his prime, and Nadal is a couple steps slower than his physical prime. Even with that he is winning only 1 slam per year, and probably will continue on that rate (or worse). Imagine Federer in his prime today and Nadal with the 2 steps he lost (at his peak he was much faster than even Djokovic is today, the fact he is about equal to Djokovic in speed and plays atleast as good or better of defense even today with the massive speed loss speaks volumes). Djokovic wouldn't win a single thing.
     
  43. rodrigo_palacio88

    rodrigo_palacio88 Rookie

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    not agree.

    actually , one only guy can beat nole consistly and is nadal , like was with federer.

    federer won slams and was nÂș1 in times of peak murray and nole too.

    the rest of the field it`s very weak , even more that the general field of 2004-2007.

    can`t compare some top-10 player of today with others like davydenko , coria , nalbandian and others.

    the only guy with chances outside top-4 it`s delpo , in other years you have players like hewitt , safin , davydenko , coria and others.

    federer always pushed very hard peak nadal on clay , peak nadal on clay was 2005-2008 , he was the perfect clay court player in that years , his stamina and defense was much much better than this days.

    that nadal would never lost sets against guys like isner on rg.

    I remember federer even winning some sets 6-0 against that rafa
     
  44. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Did Djokovic play equally well in every match in 2011?
     
  45. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Is it a fact or an opinion?
     
  46. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    5555,
    Since you're are curious, why don't you tell us what you think. Who's the better player at their peak?
     
  47. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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  48. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    No different than the endless "Nadal/PED" / "Nadal/cheater" / "Toni" / "Fed's old records" threads that pop up--in great volume--every time Nadal wins a major or beats Fed.

    Typical TW stuff.
     
  49. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    NatF, you've lost the argument.
     
  50. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near Talk Tennis Guru

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    Where is the ban hammer when it is so sorely needed.
     

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