Is Rafa really the CCGOAT?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by asafi2, Apr 17, 2011.

  1. asafi2

    asafi2 Rookie

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    I mean he is beating everyone so badly and winning nearly every clay court tournament. Doesn't that translate to a weak era, Nadal fans???

    That seems to be the logic most anti-Federer fans use right?
     
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  2. MajinX

    MajinX Professional

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    lmao, weak clay era... anyways ima just laugh and not comment on this. Ive learned a long time ago most tennis fans on this forum dont use logic. Altho I will saw the entire weak era arguments, fed or nadal are just dumb. damit I commented.
     
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  3. ucr_tennis90

    ucr_tennis90 Rookie

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    i disagree with calling this a weak era as both a nadal fan and a federer fan.

    this era just got unlucky that federer became so unstoppable for so long. and after that, nadal showed up and took command of clay pretty much instantly and then worked his way to better tennis on the other surfaces.

    now it may not be a "strong" era, but i don't think it's really all that "weak" either.

    federer is the greatest player (overall) we've seen so far. for me, there is no arguing that anymore. nadal is arguably the best player on clay we've ever seen, especially if he wins another RG.

    how about instead of both sides arguing about who the "GOAT" is, why not just enjoy watching them make history? they accept each other as friendly rivals, not mortal enemies.
     
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  4. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Rafa is the GOAT
     
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  5. MagneticCurls

    MagneticCurls Banned

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    Definitely weak clay era.
     
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  6. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    LOL. It's called a "weak clay era" because Nadal beats everyone and takes nearly all the titles.
     
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  7. MagneticCurls

    MagneticCurls Banned

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    Conversely, Nadal beats everyone because they all stink??? Tards, the era contradictions work both ways. Please ask Samprastards
     
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  8. babbette

    babbette Legend

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    The true question is what do people classify as a strong era?
     
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  9. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    The 1990s, mostly because a load of different players took the clay-court titles.
     
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  10. babbette

    babbette Legend

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    Maybe that meant they were all equally as weak 8)
     
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  11. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

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    Way to dish it back to the thick *******s :lol:
    For all the complaining about Roger's era,I never see them whinning about their hero's dominance on clay :mrgreen:
     
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  12. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    I guess we will never know. He is the best of his era. So you can say he is the best out of the current talent. But where that overall talent pool lies in relation to other eras is debatable. Maybe the 90s were tougher, maybe the 80s, maybe the 70s, can't say.

    But yeah, I wouldn't say he is clay goat, but I would say he is the greatest on clay in his era.
     
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  13. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    errr...Nadal's dominance on clay pretty much was parallel to Federer's dominance on the other surfaces. So they both dealt with the same talent somewhat for many years.
     
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  14. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Nadal is definitely among the all time greats on clay already, and he's likely to accomplish even more on the surface and elsewhere. Defining a strong or weak era is not easy, unless one accepts that there are no such distinctions. In Borg's time, there were many great clay courters that he faced off against including Orantes, Clerc, Vilas, Panatta, and Lendl. Besides such top clay courters in a given year during those years, there were usually another ten-fifteen guys who could be very dangerous on red clay. I think that Nadal has also faced some very respectable clay courters in his time, including guys like Ferrer, Ferrero, Federer, Murray, Djokovic, Davydenko, Nalbandian and Coria.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2011
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  15. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

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    Tell that to *******s.:mrgreen:
    I didn't called his competition weak. :wink:
     
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  16. babbette

    babbette Legend

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    Roger dominated everywhere with the exception of clay for a long while. Not the same callibre of "weakness" 8)
     
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  17. dave t

    dave t New User

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    are you guys kidding? if rafa is not the best on clay, who is? before someone calls me a ******* or whatever - I'm not a huge rafa fan at all... probably closer to ******* territory. I think regardless of personal favorites, you have to recognize just how good nadal really is.
     
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  18. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

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    So you concede that your boy's dominance has been due to weak competition (whatever calibre you want to put it down to).That's a start :lol:
     
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  19. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    Whats the point in that? If the competition was weak for Federer, then it was also for Nadal. I mean think about it, who is the guy who has beaten Nadal the most on clay...the guy who he owns. Doesn't say much for anyone else.

    truth is, it is what it is, Fedal stepped it up, and the others could not follow.
     
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  20. kevoT

    kevoT Semi-Pro

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    There is no such thing as a week era, only players that are superior to all the others...
     
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  21. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

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    Precisely my point mate.That's why I LOL when *******s whine about Fed's lack of competition.
     
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  22. babbette

    babbette Legend

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    What I am saying is. when federer was dominant he pretty much ballet'ed his way through most matches on grass and hard, this would make a better argument for anybody playing in a weak era. But Rafa is dominant mostly on clay but it is much more of a struggle on other surfaces. So Rafa is superior on clay but his continuing struggle on other surfaces would suggest he is not competing in a weak era. The playing styles are much more aggressive now maybe that's why Roger is struggling to keep up now. Noot as weak as it once was :(
     
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  23. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    I think you're right Mandy01. I don't think that one could plausibly argue that the level of competition for Nadal was much different than that of Federer. You'd have to look at their primary competitors closely when they each were winning. The primary difference between what Nadal has faced versus what Federer has faced is really a structural one. Nadal's best surface is clay, but the Tour is weighted heavily now towards hard courts. He struggles a bit more on hard courts, but he's improving there significantly at this stage of his career. Federer could rely on his strength, hard courts, he has fewer opportunities per year to struggle on his "worst surface". Meanwhile, there are a lot of hard court tourneys for Nadal to face yearly. So the Tour's weighting makes it a bit more difficult for Nadal to be as "dominant". Yet, no matter what, in my opinion, Nadal's 2010 was possibly a better year than one of Federer's best years.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2011
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  24. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

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    .You definitely did not watch Roger in that case.


    Uhm..no.40 shot rallies and four hour slugfests on hard courts for 3 set matches =/= aggressive tennis.Bye.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2011
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  25. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    I know what you mean...

    Unless there is a magic army of incredible clay court Gods that appear just for the clay season, and vanish for the parts, then, yeah...I really do know what you mean.

    It's not like boxing, where you have a heavy weight division, a middle weight and so on, where you can argue that one champion had tougher competition. Federer and Nadal played the same guys week in and week out for many years.
     
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  26. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    I lol when I look at the current top 10 players (made a separate thread about it), I mean seriously Melzer, Monfils, Berdych, Ferrer, Verdasco, Soderling all in the top 10 simultaneously?

    The Nadaltards need to make a case about Monfils or Melzer being better than prime Hewitt or prime Safin, DAMN a 34-year old Agassi would be top 5 now.
     
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  27. babbette

    babbette Legend

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    Maybe this is a bit closer to what I agree with even after all was said. (MAYBE)

    Anyway why am I in this thread, haven't I learned by now that Fed fans will do everything they can to diminish Rafa's efforts and accomplishments, even more so now that their boy is struggling. :shock: We need to focus on Rafa's new threats not old threats (though he might be a threat again one day)

    As you were, buh bye and enjoy 8)
     
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  28. tenis1

    tenis1 Banned

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    Borg is still CCGOAT.
    Nadal needs one more FO to be equal to Borg and two more to be indisputable CCGOAT,
     
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  29. Devilito

    Devilito Hall of Fame

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    the characteristics of being successful on a given surface varies. On clay, it’s physicality, speed and mental toughness. You can argue on fast carpet it would be talent, skill and reflexes. So the question shouldn’t be, “is Rafa the CCGOAT”, but, is Rafa the fastest most physical and mentally tough player. In terms of adding all those into an overall package I’d have to say yes.
     
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  30. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Wow at Ken Rosewall who is ignored completely in the GOAT discussions even though he won more majors + major equivalents than Laver and was 6-4 against Rod in Slam/Pro finals.

    Rosewall was the best clay courter for almost 20 years, from the early 50's till the late 60's, he won 7 French Pro titles IN A ROW + another French Pro title and 2 more French Opens (we're talking about the messy pre-open, pro and open eras).

    Gotta admit that if Rosewall at his best played either Borg or Nadal at their best he would lose 6-0 6-0, that's how time works unfortunately and washes people's brains out.
     
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  31. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Nah, the talent level in the early 1990's was off the charts. Look at the top 10 list from the early 90's on another thread that somebody recently posted. Very strong pool.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2011
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  32. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    So true. I mean all of these *******s saying Federer only won titles because he had such a weak era. Hello, Nadal has been part of that weak era for a long time as well. If Fed is so weak and Nadal has defeated Fed many times, how does that make Nadal so strong? The logic astounds me of some of these extreme *******s.

    With that said, Nadal is DEFINITELY the current clay GOAT. He will be the clay GOAT of all time if he wins another FO or two and surpasses Borg's records.
     
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  33. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Babbette come on. Federer is struggling because he is almost 30. Give the guy a break. Nobody is equal to Fed in terms of overall achievements. Rafa is great no question, but bottom line is he has a lot of work to do to equal or better Fed. Nothing else matters, that is the bottom line. I understand loyal Rafa fans want to support him, but, stats and records don't lie. Looking at the h2h solely in summing up a person's entire career is just silly. There is so much more. I am not saying any of this to be belligerent and it is not directed at you personally.

    P.S. Rafa's 7 straight win at MC is a great feat!
     
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  34. MagneticCurls

    MagneticCurls Banned

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    Wow, this post gave me an erection.
     
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  35. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    For me, saying someone is the GOAT, even on a particular surface is difficult, too many variables. I can say however that if Nadal wins two more FO's, then he is the most accomplished player results wise on clay ever. And that in itself is an incredible feat.

    Just like Federer for me is the most accomplised player of all time, with 16 slams to his name. I still would not call him GOAT...just that he has the best trophy cabinet around. :)
     
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  36. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    so wait, when nadal was winning less titles outside of clay your argument is that it was a weaker era than now, when he's winning more titles? Not sure I follow that logic.. it could simply be Nadal sucked hard outside of clay until recently... which he did.
     
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  37. Rippy

    Rippy Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, but it's only a weak CLAY era. :)
     
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  38. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree with you 100%. This GOAT stuff is ridiculous. How can you compare players across generations with different conditions and variables? Silly.

    I do think Nadal is the most accomplished clay court player just a shade behind Borg but I think he will surpass him pretty soon.

    Roger I think is one of the greatest because of all of his achievements combined. If somebody can step up and surpass those achievements, super!
     
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  39. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    That is all it takes huh? :wink:
     
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  40. Cassius Clay

    Cassius Clay Banned

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    Why two more FO's? I think one more in the bag would be more than enough since Nadal would have more clay titles than Borg (and more important ones) and the 81 consecutive matches record.
     
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  41. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    GOAT discussion is for morons period. No, Nadal is not what ever moronic term you described, and neither is Roger.
     
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  42. IvanisevicServe

    IvanisevicServe Banned

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    It's hard to believe anybody could ever do better on clay in this era than Nadal has. The man has lost just 4 matches on the stuff since 2005. Doesn't get much better than that.
     
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  43. Tennis_Monk

    Tennis_Monk Hall of Fame

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    It is weak era. weak era of fans as we find them more n more logically challenged.
     
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  44. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    The eras aren't the same for Federer and Nadal in one important sense. Federer was a grown man playing youngsters, while Nadal was cutting his teeth on his peers. That's a big difference.

    Federer was at the age that they are now, while Nadal, Djokovic, and Murray were maturing as men and players. At the height of Federer's success Nadal was 19, Djokovic 18, and Murray 17. You think that's a fair fight?

    Using many people's logic that would be worse than comparing Raonic who's just cutting his teeth on the tour with someone as accomplished as those who have been playing the big matches on tour for years.

    Raonic is a good player (potentially great, from what we've seen), but he still has to pay his dues. He still has to learn to play a variety of different players and styles on the big stages, so to me, that's why the distinction exists.
     
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  45. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I think that until the last couple of years it has been a weak era on all surfaces. So with rafa being such a great clay courter it has been easier for him, during his run.
     
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  46. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Exactly right + because of this fed benefitted immensely. Rafa has to, but he was a kid + still winning, now that he is in his prime the competition is much tougher than it was for fed while he was at his top.
     
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  47. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    I couldn't put it any better. It's just that simple. Everything else is pure extrapolation.
     
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  48. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    So, basically you're saying that age only matters when it benefits Nadal?
     
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  49. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    No. I'm saying Fed Fans are constantly gloating 16>9, when Federer has a 5 year difference on Nadal.

    Federer was 22-25 while his greatest competition were teenagers.

    If we put that analogy into today's terms that would be like comparing Raonic to Nadal giving Nadal the benefit of maturation and experience.

    That hardly seems fair to me.

    Also, if Federer continues to play and the h2h widens further, why are so many Fed Fans already saying Fed is past his prime and if the youngsters beat him it's no big deal?

    That to me is a glaring double standard. It's okay for Fed to have his hc record over Nadal when he's five years older, but it's moot if Nadal, who is now in his prime beats a past his prime Federer?

    Where do you think I said this?
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2011
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  50. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    Nadal was beating Fed while still a teenager, so please don't bring out the "Fed was whooping teenagers" excuse.

    And don't forget that his biggest competition wasn't always teenagers. I mean, unless Hewitt, Nalbandian, and Safin changed their birth records that is.
     
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