Is Sanchez Vicario overrated or underrated- how does she rank vs others similar slams

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by NadalAgassi, Apr 28, 2013.

  1. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    I didn't say I agree with everything (though some things), just that I appreciate the effort.
     
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  2. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    You know it was not as limited as we may remember it. She was a better volleyer than either Seles, Graf, Martinez, and a ton of others but we did not see it in singles, in part because her televised performances were mostly in the late rounds of red clay events, when it wasn't prudent to come forward consistently.

    Take a look at her doubles record and compare with just about anyone on the tour at that time. She won 10 majors in doubles and mixed with 9 other finals on top. She must have been a great volleyer, and must have had more variety in her returns than we saw, or that record just would not look like that.

    She was limited in heavy hitting weaponry, with no explosive power in her forehand, or a big serve. Otherwise, she wasn't missing much.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
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  3. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    She had a really good backhand up the line when she flattened it out. She had a very solid overhead, and she was a good volleyer. The only trouble with this is that she didn't use any of these weapons often in singles. So maybe I should amend what I said earlier from a limited game to limited use of her weapons?

    I just didn't like her approach to tennis, camping out 8 ft behind the baseline and trying to topspin balls over her opponents' heads. There are a lot of players that get dismissed as a pusher or a moonballer. Well, that's how I saw ASV 90% of the time.

    Its probably just a difference in what kind of game I admire which is a game that is a lot more forward and takes it to an opponent. "Forcing the issue" is what BJK used to call it. Martina, Chris, Steffi, Seles ..... even Wade, Mandlikova, etc. could be described this way. She might be more aggressive than Maleeva or the Chrissie clones, but ASV rarely forced the issue.
     
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  4. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Can't argue with any of that, except it was a style that could work vs Graf, when so few could execute one that would win 4 games in a set. She was the only one with the balance, anticipation, heart and legs to return 5-10 Graf forehands, deep enough that Steffi could not necessarily stay on the offense after she established control.. It was perfect for the '89 RG. She seemed more ready to attack the net in the late eighties when she was new, than later on, but that was the general trend for everyone, especially with the power hitters off both wings like Seles, Pierce etc.

    Of all the baseliners I have seen, including Evert, Austin, Jaeger Graf, Seles, Hingis, and even Clisters, Sanchez was the very best on defense in baseline rallies backcourt. It requires a lot of talents to do that well against this stature of opponents. Oddly she was the worst on this list (excepting maybe Jaeger) when defending against s'vers.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
    #54
  5. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    Players adapt to their own eras. ASV was smart enough to tailor her game to the 90's. But I doubt she would've been as successful in an era with Court, King, Wade, and Goolagong when she struggled with the far less accomplished serve and volleyers of her era.

    No doubt she could exract errors from Graf. Reminds me of Harold Solomon in that way.
     
    #55
  6. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    quite tougher that Sabatinis
     
    #56
  7. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    No, but a better FH definitely.
     
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  8. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    hana´s personality was much different to ASV.And much more appealing.
     
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  9. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    In peak play, Hana Mandlikova is the player over the last 30 yrs that I would hate missing a match of her
     
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  10. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    I recall that 6-0, 6-2 loss of Steffi Graf to Sanchez in the 1991 French Open semifinal. Peter Graf had a scuffle with someone in the stands and Steffi just started blasting shots out. Given Steffi Graf's historical stature at the French Open, that semifinal match was as much an anomoly as her 1994 first round loss at Wimbledon as defending champion to Lori McNeil. It didn't happen often, but Steffi would get distracted at times.

    AngieB
     
    #60
  11. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    QUOTE=AngieB;7386703]I recall that 6-0, 6-2 loss of Steffi Graf to Sanchez in the 1991 French Open semifinal. Peter Graf had a scuffle with someone in the stands and Steffi just started blasting shots out. Given Steffi Graf's historical stature at the French Open, that semifinal match was as much an anomoly as her 1994 first round loss at Wimbledon as defending champion to Lori McNeil. It didn't happen often, but Steffi would get distracted at times.

    AngieB[/QUOTE]

    Not to compare the two situations, but we talk frequently about what a deranged Graf fan did to Seles. But the fight you mentioned involved a man that allegedly bought influence with many of the top players and their families. The Grafs seperated themselves from him while the Sanchez and Seles families gave him box seats and access in exchange for his continued largesse (allegedly) .

    If true, he may have had cause to distract Graf in what was obviously the worst performance of her career. ASV's reaction to that win was comical. Self awareness was never her strength.
     
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  12. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    I had forgotten the details, thank you for the reminder.

    There can nothing more distracting during a match than to look up in the public stands and see your father scuffling. I felt terribly bad for Steffi that day. She did everything short of walking off court and defaulting.

    AngieB
     
    #62
  13. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Yes since losing to a peak Sanchez in 3 sets in a slam final (while injured as you noted), and going a combined 5-1 vs peak Sanchez in slams, is better than losing to non prime Sanchez 6-2, 6-0 in a slam semi and in straight sets at the same event, as your so called peak Graf (91-92) did. Your arguments get more comical by the second. So now I have two straightforward questions for you, and this time ANSWER them rather than beating around the bush:

    1. Do you honestly think the 91-92 Graf who reached the finals of only 3 of the 10 biggest events (and again nothing to do with Seles or your beloved Sabatini who she didnt face before finals in any of those) was the best Graf ever. Better than 87-89 who lost only 2 matches a year, or 93, 95, and 96 Graf who barely lost matches and did the French-Wimbledon-U.S Open sweep. Yes or no.

    2. Are you actually flat out saying (and again no more beating around the bush) that 1 slam winner Sabatini is a better (BETTER, not more potential, could have, would have, should have, blah blah) player than 4 slam winner Sanchez of the same era, and when they are practically the same age.

    Give a direct flat out yes or no answer to both these questions or I wont bother with you and your nonsense anymore.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2013
    #63
  14. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    I agree ASV played in the right era for her game to be effective. Not only would she have struggled in a serve and volley friendly era, but today she would also struggle against the massive slew of power players who hit and serve her off the court, and who increasingly more could have matched her fitness and longevity in rallies.
     
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  15. 70後

    70後 Semi-Pro

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    well, though these days she's been found out and everybody beats her, Wozniacki had two good years when the top of the game was broken and Sanchez imo is a far better player than Woz, though both are the endurance types. Sanchez also has the same number of wins on Serena as does Azarenka, Sharapova and Kvitova combined. :p So if Sanchez were playing now and had happened to peak from 2010 to 2011....
     
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  16. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Well Wozniacki didnt really achieve hardly anything, despite the number 1 ranking. Peak Sanchez of course would have done better than Wozniacki (and given how much she plays probably been ranked #1 the entire time Woz was) but whether she would have really done well or not who knows. In this era being ranked #1 is meaningless and not a representation of doing well as Wozniackis career is proof of.
     
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  17. fluffyyelloballz

    fluffyyelloballz Rookie

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    I would say she is underrated and that people use the Seles stabbing when underrating her. IMO the Seles stabbing is irrelevant to what Sanchez achieved on court. Sanchez could only play who was in front of her and should not be penalised for something that was beyond her control.

    Sanchez is at the top of the third tier of greats. (The second tier ending with Hingis).

    Sanchez won her first slam amid the Graf domination of 88/89, beating Graf in the final. No mental problems for her at all. Not like some other third tierers who could not cope with the pressure of their first finals. Imagine you are 17 and playing Graf in her heyday in a Major final and you save set points in the first set and win 7-5 in the third!

    Sanchez continued to make finals in the Seles era, beating Graf on her way to the '91 French Open final and the '92 US final. Sanchez could not beat Seles in those matches, as it was a bad match up but she did get a win over Seles in the '92 Canada final, a three setter where all her mental toughness was on show. And those slam finals were tougher than their score lines suggest.

    Sanchez then got to the '94 Ozzie open final, won the 94 French Open and beat Graf in the US '94 final.

    Then she made number one in '95.Plus the 95 French Open and Wimbledon finals, a feat she repeated in '96.

    Her last hurrah was beating a resurgent Seles in the '98 French Open final.

    Look at these achievements. They are HUGE. Sabatini got nowhere near them. Sabatini is a fourth tier great along with Pierce and Mauresmo.

    Sanchez would be right at the top of the third tier. No ifs or buts for me. Anyone who beats Graf(twice!) and Seles in Major finals is pretty special. She is ahead of Davenport and Clisters and all the other four slammers. Most of them had massive mental problems, which Sanchez never had. Sanchez's only obstacles were her extraordinary opponents not herself. Only Sharapova could rank ahead of her at the top of the second tier, but that will become irrelevant when Maria defends RG, when Maria will be elevated to the bottom of the second tier.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2013
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  18. rosewallGOAT

    rosewallGOAT Banned

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    Certainly not the overmatched Gabriela Sabatini who ASV beat easily in the 94 Australian and U.S Open semis. :)
     
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  19. nat75

    nat75 Rookie

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    Beating Sabatini when she was on steady decline is not something you brag about.
     
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  20. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    and again what was Sabatini's excuse for already being on heavy decline at the ancient age of 24. You want excuses for Graf not playing her best in 91 and 92 (even though you amazingly claim she only playing her best in 91 and 92, and not in 87, 88, 89, 93, 94, 95, 96, when she was having way better results even excluding Seles and Sabatini completely, so seemingly would need to be the one making alot more excuses for Graf not playing her best than I would, but anyhow), but what were Sabatini's excuses for already being washed up and way past her prime according to you from age 23 onwards. Did she have any big injuries? No. Was she stabbed. No. Did she choose to come out of the closet or defect like Martina had at the time of her slump? No. Did she have any of the crazy family scenarios that people like Graf, Pierce, Capriati have experienced on and off their whole careers. So pray tell what exactly were Sabatini's oh so valid excuses for being a has been already at 23, other than *gasps* just being an underachiever, who for all her potential in the end just wasnt all that great.

    I also note you did not bother answering my direct and pointed questions:

    1. Do you honestly think the 91-92 Graf who reached the finals of only 3 of the 10 biggest events (and again nothing to do with Seles or your beloved Sabatini who she didnt face before finals in any of those) was the best Graf ever. Better than 87-89 who lost only 2 matches a year, or 93, 95, and 96 Graf who barely lost matches and did the French-Wimbledon-U.S Open sweep. Yes or no.

    2. Are you actually flat out saying (and again no more beating around the bush) that 1 slam winner Sabatini is a better (BETTER, not more potential, could have, would have, should have, blah blah) player than 4 slam winner Sanchez of the same era, and when they are practically the same age.


    for about the 10th time. No surprise there.



    Lastly here is PEAK Sabatini vs non prime Sanchez in probably their biggest match in the 92 Miami final:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejC9cgTidnI

    Amazing too how nowhere near prime Sanchez won her 1st slam before the already firmly established top 3 player Sabatini could win her only one, and she did it beating Graf in the final in probably her best ever year of tennis, something Sabatini could probably only dream of doing:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EJ35EPHRDc

    Dont try and kid/delude yourself to thinking prime Sabatini was ever somehow this way better player, and this was even before Sanchez Vicario had really come into her own, and once she did, yes she was super lucky with the Seles stabbing, but she still put together a string of results and performance that left the underachieving Sabatini in her wake for good. Atleast Sanchez took all her opportunities, and she did not blow numerous big matches and opportunities for slam titles like Sabatini did:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzccIsO0L3I
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmRWu1xbgI0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9xGb8L_kIM

    Had Sabatini faced the injured Graf in the 94 U.S Open final or a slightly tired Seles in the 98 French Open final you just KNOW Sabatini still would have found a way to blow it, but Sanchez just grabbed those kind of opportunities with both hands and took them.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2013
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  21. CCNM

    CCNM Hall of Fame

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    Guess I better start watching Sara E. I LOVED Arantxa's game-running all over the court to return a ball. She was like a pinball machine! (Yeah, I'm old) THAT'S how you play tennis!:)
     
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  22. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Sanchez had the heart, mind and soul of a winner. That gave her the stature genetics denied her. Sabatini was glorious to watch, and played some inspired tennis against some inspired opposition. She did not really have that kind of fortitude.
     
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  23. nat75

    nat75 Rookie

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    Did you know that months prior to that Miami match Gaby crashed ASV in Sydney in straight sets 6/1, 6/1?

    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=cH_9aDkbRUw&desktop_uri=/watch?v=cH_9aDkbRUw

    ...that she beated Steffi the day before and Monica Seles in Rome? Could that be a case of Sabatini underestimating ASV?

    And either way you can't explain why the far superior Sanchez didn't get better h2h against the top players or even Sabatini herself.
     
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