Is the slowing down of surfaces a good thing for tennis ?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by VOLLEY KING, Mar 1, 2012.

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Is the slowing down of surfaces a good thing for tennis?

  1. Yes it's a good thing

    12 vote(s)
    14.8%
  2. No it's a bad thing

    62 vote(s)
    76.5%
  3. I don't care

    2 vote(s)
    2.5%
  4. The jury is still out

    5 vote(s)
    6.2%
  1. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    Is the slowing down of surfaces a good thing for tennis ?

    There are a few different opinions about this .

    One school of thought feels it's a bad thing because the serve and volley game is dead.

    Another school of thought doesn't like it because their favorite players lose on slow surfaces

    Another school of thought feels that all the surfaces have become the same and you don't have four unique surfaces anymore.

    And another school of thought feels that tennis has never been this exciting . The technology increased the power to such a degree that the game became to fast. It was all serves and aces and people were getting bored.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2012
    #1
  2. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    How many more threads about speed surfaces? Makes me want to throw in some random pictures.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    #2
  3. monfed

    monfed Guest

    To put it simply, slams should be -

    AO - Medium-fast HC where both shotmakers and grinders have an equal opportunity of winning. Rebound Ace was tailor-made for this.

    RG - Slow clay which it mostly is except that they're using lighter balls now.

    WB - Fast grass like the 90s where S&Vers like Llodra, Lopez, Dent and Fish(to an extent) have a shot at the title.

    USO - Fast HC where shotmakers should be outright favourites.

    PS - Please don't give me the "If the courts are sped up, it would be an ace-fest" BS because that's an unbalanced viewpoint.
     
    #3
  4. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    [​IMG]



    the short answer is, no.
     
    #4
  5. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    The WB courts dont need to be as fast as the 90's but not the green clay it is now. Id take relative quickness with the low bounce, thx.
     
    #5
  6. mattennis

    mattennis Hall of Fame

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    Variety of surfaces speed and bounce is what we are lacking today.
     
    #6
  7. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    That look correct to me, Wim. is just a joke from 2001 and on, FO is a joke due to multiple ball changes and not watering anymore and player have to eat the dirt, AO is fine, USO I am not sure about here.
     
    #7
  8. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    If you really want four different surfaces you should have

    Wimbledon : grass

    USO hard

    FO red clay

    AO Har tru

    This is what seems fair . Two fast surfaces and two slow surfaces .

    Hard is not as fast as grass and Har tru is not as slow as red clay .

    This is the way to go.
     
    #8
  9. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    I should have asked this poll question a different way.....

    The issue really is whether tennis has become more exciting than during the Sampras and Ivanesivic serving ace days.

    The surfaces were changed as an answer to the increased speed of the serves. People were getting bored with watching ace after ace and viewership was down.
     
    #9
  10. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    wow, you know how many ways this question and topic has been discussed here? lol. Do you use the search function?

    you could spend a day reading the existing threads, yet you made another one..why??
     
    #10
  11. TennisLovaLova

    TennisLovaLova Hall of Fame

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    Wimbledon grass was officially changed for a better grass quality that asks less care than the previous one. Again, and it's been said 2000 times here on the forum, it's also the way the ground is compacted that impacts the speed and ball bounce.
    Answer: bad for tennis cause it kills variety and technique, it only benefits players under ped's
     
    #11
  12. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    Well there are two issues here.

    First as a sports purist view. This would be where your coming from regarding the variety of styles.

    Then there's the general public view.....which is that during this change we have witnessed possibly the two most exciting wimbledons of all time and now one of the most exciting AO's of all time.

    Tennis viewership is way up since the Ivanesovic days.
     
    #12
  13. GS

    GS Professional

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    My dream is to have those Aussies install artificial grass in Melbourne, just to mix the Grand Slam surfaces up alittle bit. But, as we all know, television and money control sports nowadays, and the networks want slower surfaces for more action. It's a pretty bad situation.
     
    #13
  14. mattennis

    mattennis Hall of Fame

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    #14
  15. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    Exactly! Well said!

    Except I think they should go back to the old grass and hardcourt of wimby and USO and go to Har tru at the AO.

    This way you would have 2 fast and 2 slow. Plus Har tru is not represented anywhere in the world anymore and it plays quite differently than red clay.

    The USO used to be held on Har Tru and Jimmy Connors actually beat Borg on it at the USO.

    Borg was as dominant on red clay as Nadal is today. And yet Borg could not win on Har Tru. So it is quite different than red clay.

    I think this would be the most fair representation of all speeds.
     
    #15
  16. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    Interesting idea.....
     
    #16
  17. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    Why did they take away indoor carpets anyway?
     
    #17
  18. Magnetite

    Magnetite Professional

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    There needs to be more variety.

    I want to watch some HD serve and volley action.
     
    #18
  19. Devilito

    Devilito Hall of Fame

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    Nadal couldn't play on it
     
    #19
  20. celoft

    celoft Guest

    Looks like they want many Career Slams.
     
    #20
  21. 6-2/6-4/6-0

    6-2/6-4/6-0 Semi-Pro

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    I'm on record for faster courts in about 26 of these threads...

    I'd love to see the AO go back to grass (better in the heat, easier on the body), the French to get a bit slower but keep the lighter balls, Wimbledon to go back to late 80s/early 90s grass, and some fast, well maintained hard courts at the USO.

    And while we're at it, let's get some good fast carpet going again.

    In general, I'd like to see more natural surfaces and softer surfaces, they are so much easier on the body if you're playing regularly...
     
    #21
  22. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    All I know is that I would rather watch paint dry than watch a match between Sampras & Ivanesovic.....

    Ace...easy volley .....ace .....easy volley.......ugghhh
     
    #22
  23. mattennis

    mattennis Hall of Fame

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    It is really a shame what they have done to this beautiful sport.

    This is Masters Cup'05, the only one year since 1999 that they used a fast court (as they were in the 90s indoor carpet tournaments), and it was probably the best offensive tennis I have ever seen since the 90s. Rewarding aggresive shots (not endless mega-top-spin shots from behind the baseline till one of the players hit it long or to the net) :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XOBP3N1ejc

    Will we be able to watch some day this beautiful fast tennis again?
     
    #23
  24. mattennis

    mattennis Hall of Fame

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    #24
  25. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    Personally I enjoyed the two Wimbledon Federer finals much much more.

    The Isner Mahut marathon was incredible as well.

    This years AO final between djokovic and Nadal was the best tennis I have ever seen in my life period.

    I think that today's tennis is far more exciting than any other era and I wish someone start such a poll.
     
    #25
  26. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    How can anyone watch that video and still believe Fed's dominance was due to weak competition?
     
    #26
  27. mattennis

    mattennis Hall of Fame

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    I am watching Dubai Djokovic-Murray and this hard court+balls are clearly faster than Australian Open conditions and US OPEN conditions.

    There should be more hard courts like this one, for the sake of variety.
     
    #27
  28. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    nah there wont be. because it wouldnt favor nadal/djoker grinding tennis.

    djoker got exposed a lil bit on that faster court.
     
    #28
  29. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    I don't think you can call today's tennis "grinding"

    It's more like "baseline BASHING"

    And I find it far more exciting . Who the hell wants to see short points?

    I have never seen shots like this in my life . It's "boom
    Boom boom"

    I love the long rally's at laser like speeds and the strategy and physical endurance required. Who the hell wants to see aces all day long?

    I'm a serve and volleyer and I think it's much more fun to "PLAY" that way .....but watching it is not as exciting as today's tennis.

    I really do not want to go back to the Sampras days. I can't think of one final as exciting as The Federer & Nadal finals or this past AO .

    The Isner match was amaaaaaaaazimg for our sport. The whole world tuned in to watch .
     
    #29
  30. Rozroz

    Rozroz Legend

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    who's that?
    oh, you mean tankovic!
     
    #30
  31. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    Fast does not equal more skill.

    Slower tennis is phyisically more challenging requires greater strategy and mental strength is needed .

    But I wouldn't call today's tennis "slow" by any stretch of the imagination .
     
    #31
  32. Crazy man

    Crazy man Banned

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    I think it's a great thing. ITF should be so proud of themselves to have came up with a genuis move to essentially cut the limited amound of slam contenders from 15 to 4. It seems to have worked, because the same 4 keep cropping up in the SF's. Again, nicely played ITF; A pat on the back is necessary.
     
    #32
  33. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    It's always been that way . The top 4 players always appeared usually.

    Borg , McEnroe , Connors ( that's really three).
     
    #33
  34. mattennis

    mattennis Hall of Fame

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    To Volley King:

    I am not saying to change ALL courts and balls and make them as fast as the fastest 90s courts.

    I say to change SOME hard courts and balls and make them at least as fast as Dubai this year, and bring back SOME carpet tournaments, to have SOME variety.

    As Federer and just about every other player have said, today all courts play basically the same. So it is obviuos that the best four players almost always will get to the SF of every tournament.

    Tennis NEVER was like this. The most essencial thing about tennis was that there were four clearly different conditions to play the game.

    If it were the case today again, if the four GS were four clearly different conditions to play the game, we would not see the same 4 players in the SF.

    And faster conditions make casualties (top-seeds surprise defeats) more probable, bringing more thrill and suspense/uncertain to the tournaments.
     
    #34
  35. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    Well that changed from about 1989-2003
     
    #35
  36. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Carpet! Yes, we need to bring that back for the end of season play. Wim is got to go back to 90's speed.

    One correction, the courts are not just slower today. They were made slower since 2001, and were a factor in ushering out the S&V era of tennis. Federer described this him self, claiming not just the other players but himself as well have racked up their wins on the new slow courts.

    I can't help but think no one complained about this when Roger was winning everything. When Nadal and Novak started winning everything all of a sudden people were demanding smaller rackets, wooden rackets, faster courts, and faster balls, etc.

     
    #36
  37. mattennis

    mattennis Hall of Fame

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    This is the nº of different semi-finalist in the four GS tournaments since 1990 (being 16 the maximum and 4 the minimum, obviously) :

    1990: 12
    1991: 9
    1992: 11
    1993: 11
    1994: 12
    1995: 10
    1996: 13
    1997: 13
    1998: 14
    1999: 13
    2000: 12
    2001: 14
    2002: 14
    2003: 12
    2004: 13
    2005: 10
    2006: 10
    2007: 9
    2008: 8
    2009: 10
    2010: 10
    2011: 6

    You can clearly see the trend.

    I predict 5 or 6 for 2012.

    Homogenization of conditions is not the only factor, but it is a HUGE factor in this trend.

    I bet you that if the four GS were four drastically different conditions (and the Tour had enough tournaments of each of those four different conditions), there would be many more different players in the SF of the four GS (and tournaments in general).
     
    #37
  38. tenniselbow1

    tenniselbow1 Rookie

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    You fail to mention something here. Fed won his Wimbi's on the progressively slower grass courts of Wimbi. Rafa on the other hand had to wait till 08 when the courts were significantly slower than 2001. Giant hole in your arguement, Wimbi courts of today are a disgrace to traditional grass court tennis, in 2001-05 they held some respect.
     
    #38
  39. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    Carpet is a bad idea . With today's power it's just way to fast. It would be ridiculos.

    To figure out the future we have to first figure out the past. How did we get here?

    The game changed from wood to graphite and the strings changed from guy to poly. The game became incredibly fast and viewership was going down.

    In order to slow the game down to increase the amount of tennis fans. They succeeded but they killed serve and volley tennis.

    I think probably the only way to go back to the golden age of tennis is to do exactly that ! We simply must go back to wood with gut strings .

    In baseball they only allow wood bats because aluminum bats allow for to many home runs . You don't see them changing the playing field and allowing aluminum bats do you?

    Recreational players use aluminum bats to make it fun while the pros still use wood bats.

    I think we need to take baseballs lead on this. Why fix what ain't broke? Tennis has existed with wooden racquets forever. Why change the integrity of the sport with advanced technology?

    Spaghetti strings were outlawed because it changed the integrity of the sport. I submit to you that graphite & poly & oversized racquets has changed the sport far more than spaghetti strings ever did .

    This constant technology is a bad thing. It has to stop somewhere. We need to stop playing around with the apped of the courts and the weight of the balls.

    Let's go back to basics and use wood. It's worked great for centuries and there was no reason to change the integrity of our sport .
     
    #39
  40. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Nadal start winning when the court continue to slow down and the bounce increase. Added in having a heavier ball suits for grinding and defense. Players with huge serve, shot makers are at a disavantage.
     
    #40
  41. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    I don't think Djokovic heard you. :)
     
    #41
  42. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    No kidding. Humpty Dumpty benefits immensely from slower surfaces. Trying to act as if they only favor Nadal is pure bs.
     
    #42
  43. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    It is another surface, the more surfaces the more the variety. They can deal with the serve fest situation with the ball. But clearly we need to have some tournaments that cater to the S&V players, and pay off the big servers as well.

    As of 2001 it has been all about the baseline, and that is while you see baseliners such as Federer, Novak, Nadal at the very top. The S&V players need a stake of their own, and many of the baseline players simply aren't as competitive after the USO.


     
    #43
  44. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    I think it's more because of the technology not the surface .

    Even when the surfaces were faster the tide was turning .

    McEnroe was the last person to win Wimbledon with a wood racquet. Along came Lendl with his graphite and slammed the door McEnroe. Power tennis was born.

    Sampras came along and the style if play had not really changed yet but it was starting to .....Agassi won Wimbledon from the baseline .

    But then came Hewitt and Safin and finally Federer who was not a serve and volleyer. This was all on fast surfaces.

    The game changed because of technology not the surface. If they brought back fast surfaces serve and volley would still not work.

    I believe Nadal won queens club on fast grass and there are a Ton of indoor tournaments still played on fast hardcourts......guys like Djokovic and Nadal win those as well.

    You want the old tennis back then you have to bring old equipment back. The fast surfaces have already failed to bring serve and volley back.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2012
    #44
  45. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    Much of what you say is true. I do not believe faster surfaces would bring back S&V either but it would at least allow for some variety in play and more winners and more attacking to succeed.
     
    #45
  46. Deuces Wild

    Deuces Wild Rookie

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    Homogenization makes it more possible for one player to win a great number of slams. Having active players in the GOAT discussion helps with marketability.
     
    #46
  47. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    Thats a dangerous argument. Then the argument can be made that is the reason Federer and Laver won all those slams.

    Dont go there.
     
    #47
  48. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    Theres plenty of attacking...Djokovic hits the crap out of the ball.

    Del Potro hits the crap out of the ball.

    Soderling hits the crap out of the ball.

    Berdych....and Murray attacks quite a bit as well.

    Could you imagine how fast the ball would fly with faster surfaces and faster balls? It would be like a video game.

    Serve and volley is dead because the racquets and strings have improved. If the surfaces were faster these guys would blow past a serve and volleyer even easier.


    Djokovic actually has bigger groundstrokes...Fed would be dead....Nadal would have zero chance.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2012
    #48
  49. TennisLovaLova

    TennisLovaLova Hall of Fame

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    I dont believe in an organization/conspiration that controls tennis to this point. Things happened randomly after each tournament manager decided to make little or significant changes in court, balls, speed, whatever...
     
    #49
  50. Backhanded Compliment

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    Variety is the spice of life
     
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