Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by thejerk, Nov 11, 2004.
Now that a Nobel Piece Prize winner has died, is the world a better place?
When you mean world, you really mean America, don' you?
When I look at Arafat, I really do think he had a sincere passion for his people to live peacefully in their own state. But of course, he let senility, misguided ideas, and being an outright jerk possibly ruin the best chance they had for peace during pre-Sharon.
As for the original question, Arafat affected nothing else except the Middle East. So neither yes or no.
Wow, Mlee, I almost fell out of my chair when I read your post. "Sincere"? "Passion for peace"? Whew. The father of modern terrorism, responsible for the deaths of 1000's of civilians over a 30 year period? I know all the "haters" will get on here and rant about "What about America, Europe, etc., killing 1000's of innocents?" Not even in the same ballpark. Before I lose my lunch, just do a little reading. It's not hard. Don't trust Dan Rather's reports on this "statesman". Do a google search with Arafat+terrorism or Arafat+funding terrorism or go to www.middleeastinfo.org and edumicate yourself. Arafat deserves no empathy/sympathy/honor. I am sure he is getting settled into his very own special room in Hades as we speak.
Well said, Kevin! Plus he was friends with Bill Clinton!
First off, Michael Moore, I did not say 'passion for peace.' I said he had a passion for his people. If you saw any of his interviews, he always had Palestine in his mind albeit he took the violent approach in attempts to garner whatever he had in mind for Palestine.
Secondly, I called Arafat an 'outright jerk,' what more do you want? Do you want me to compare him as the Muslim Hitler? I know he funded many terrorist groups, but as the saying goes: one terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. Fact is, he WAS a statesman. He represented Palestine, and was popular among his people. He will be remembered and even worshipped by some Muslims. I'm sorry that bothers you but that's not an opinion, that's a fact.
Lastly, I never watched CBS news or most American outlets. I can also accuse you of the same kind of bias as most people outside of America are not blind about seeing the few good things he did for his people.
Before you go believing anything and everything on the internet or TV, do some real research. Look up and read the books by Paul Findley, then start talking
The world is a far better place with the father of international terrorism taking the permanent dirt nap.
Now, maybe, there's a chance that the Palestinian people will actually obtain a permanent home. It would never have happened as long as Arafat was alive.
Mlee, Arafat was an Egyptian gun runner. His "Palestinians" are really Jordanians who were kicked out because of, imo, Arafat's megalomania. If he cared about his people his show wife wouldn't have been getting so much money and they would have been living peacefully in their own land(Jordan). He cared more about power. He didn't want peace, his power was derived from his stated goal of driving the jews into the sea.
I just hope the Palestinian people will finally see peace and justice
You really need a reality check. Do some reading over the weekend. He is responsible for the murder of 1000s, yes 1000s of innocents. Start with the Munich Olympics and work up from there. "Another man's freedom fighter"? Give me a break!! Don't even dare go there. I'm not wasting any more breath mentioning the name of this sorry excuse for human flesh.
Anyone want to disagree with the following which I found from a reliable source:
The Palestine problem became an international issue towards the end of the First World War with the disintegration of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. Palestine was among the several former Ottoman Arab territories which were placed under the administration of Great Britain under the Mandates System adopted by the League of Nations pursuant to the League's Covenant (Article 22) .
All but one of these Mandated Territories became fully independent States, as anticipated. The exception was Palestine where, instead of being limited to "the rendering of administrative assistance and advice" the Mandate had as a primary objective the implementation of the "Balfour Declaration" issued by the British Government in 1917, expressing support for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people".
During the years of the Palestine Mandate, from 1922 to 1947, large-scale Jewish immigration from abroad, mainly from Eastern Europe took place, the numbers swelling in the 1930s with the notorious **** persecution of Jewish populations. Palestinian demands for independence and resistance to Jewish immigration led to a rebellion in 1937, followed by continuing terrorism and violence from both sides during and immediately after World War II. Great Britain tried to implement various formulas to bring independence to a land ravaged by violence. In 1947, Great Britain in frustration turned the problem over to the United Nations.
After looking at various alternatives, the UN proposed the partitioning of Palestine into two independent States, one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized (Resolution 181 (II) of 1947). One of the two States envisaged in the partition plan proclaimed its independence as Israel and in the 1948 war expanded to occupy 77 per cent of the territory of Palestine. Israel also occupied the larger part of Jerusalem. Over half the indigenous Palestinian population fled or were expelled. Jordan and Egypt occupied the other parts of the territory assigned by the partition resolution to the Palestinian Arab State which did not come into being.
In the 1967 war, Israel occupied the remaining territory of Palestine, until then under Jordanian and Egyptian control (the West Bank and Gaza Strip). This included the remaining part of Jerusalem, which was subsequently annexed by Israel. The war brought about a second exodus of Palestinians, estimated at half a million. Security Council resolution 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 called on Israel to withdraw from territories it had occupied in the 1967 conflict.
1) Those palestinians were driven from their homes.
2) Some are them are/were prepared to use all means necessary to reclaim their homelands.
If someone declared your country of abode as the new 'legal' home of other peoples wouldn't you be atleast angry?
If you have an army powerful enough to fight for your rights you use it. What do you do; what do the people of the country do; if the army isn't powerful enough?
At least someone knows whats going on
June Marks The End. On June 5th on Radio Bagdad, Palestinian organizations, including Yasser Arafat’s Fatah call for King Hussein to be deposed. The reason given is to prevent a peace agreement between Israel and Jordan. The Jordanian army attacks 3,000 Palestinians in the mountains of Jerash and Aljoun. King Hussein declares that there is “absolute quiet” in Jordan during a press conference. The Palestinians are so thoroughly defeated that 72 of its soldiers surrender to the Israeli Defense Forces in fear of Jordanian reprisals. From the original Jordanian attacks in September onward, it is estimated the Palestinians lost anywhere from several hundred to several thousand men. In addition, King Hussein institutes a Jordanization of Jordan, politically separating Jordanians and Palestinians. They are no longer considered one people.
AAAA, nice facts but your source left out a lot which means your source placed his own spin on the facts. Was your source Michael Moore by any chance? The Palestinians couild not collectively agree on anything when it came time for statehood. Isreal could, did, and that's the rest of the story. The Palestinians never excercised any logical judgement on anything during the time they had in the 1940's for statehood. Know what, they still can't. By the way, the world is a better place. Maybe the Palestinians can now exercise some logical , rational judement and get this mess straightened out. Anyone betting on this?
AAAA, great post.
The trick of discrediting every news source you don't agree with by attributing it to Michael Moore is becoming stale and does not contest any of the statements presented as facts in the article I posted. Instead you question the 'logical judgement' of the Palestinians which is an irrelevant issue when considering the question of whether Israel captured land from the Palestinians which wasn't originally granted to them by the Balfour Declaration.
By my sources the Palestinians did have land taken from them by a war.
Contrary to your opinion, they already had a person trying to redress the issue of forcibly taken Palestinian land. That person was Arafat.
If you have a more factual account of history, for scrutiny here, you can provide links/posts here to support your views if you so wish, it's your choice.
I take no credit for posting the article. It was illuminating to say the least especially when I looked up 'Balfour declaration' in google.
AAAA, my sources come from years of observation and trying to decide for myself. Let's see if I remember this correctly. On two separate occasions, the entire middle east has tried to kick Isreal off the continent. Both times the Palestinians encouraged and assisted these attacks. If you a start a war with someone and lose, you generally don't go back to where you started. By all current accounts, everyone , including Isreal, is trying to assist the Palestinans in setting up a home state. However, they must stop the murder of Jews and their own people to do so. Do honestly think Arafat contributed to this process? Do you think in his absence the process will have a better chance? You apppear to be justifying Arafat's actions over the past 50 years, including sending children out as suicide bombers.
aaaa, do your sources also mention the reality of strategic positions. Every bit of land Israel has taken was taken for strategic defense. Golan heights, etc... The Palestinians aren't fighting for a home land, they are trying to drive the jews out. What's the matter? Can't handle the truth? The Palestinians are the human sacrifces of Islamo-fascism. The powers that be in the region have one useful purpose for the Palestinians, that's pushing the jews into the sea.
What is the League of Nations anyway? We no longer care what the Cartheginians or Soviets have to say. Isn't LoN dead.
Do you remember what killed it. Not having the teeth to enforce its own resolutions killed it. Hmmm, makes you think of other orgs hu?
Well-said, Kevin T.
Yes, some will argue that Arafat was a "statesman" in the effort to gain a homeland for his people, but as the father of modern Terrorism, there is some doubt that he ever really wanted peace and statehood. That would have marginalized him, and Arafat LOVED the spotlight (and the $$$ that the EU/France was putting into his bank account).
He turned down a perfectly good deal with Barak and Clinton which would have granted him 98% of the land that he had been demanding. He was afraid that the hard liners in his camp would kill him, so he opted for continued war rather than peace and a homeland. He was a power-hungry coward who blew up woman and children. He was the Arab world's patsy-their excuse for continuing to attack Israel. The fact that Israel is the ONLY country in the region which has granted Palestinians citizenship, the right to vote and the right to run for the Knesset, and the Arab countries have continued to LEGALLY treat the Palestinians as 3rd class citizens says something about Israel and about Arafat.
The fact that the Palestinians are still impoverished, weak and stateless is due almost entirely to Arafat.
Anyone else notice that you never saw Yasser Arafat and Ringo Starr in the same room?
hmmmm ....... curious
Penthouse, great observation! I was watching old video of the Chairman on 60 Minutes last nite and could swear he was keeping a drummers beat to Mike Wallace's drivel.
Mike Wallace's "drivel" --- I love it! :lol:
Is this a joke?
Have you been there, have you seen what's going on? Have you seen how many innocent people (women and children) have killed by the Israeli army? Have you seen the towns demolished? Have you seen the roadblocks that divide the teacher from the school, the doctor from the hospital, the student from the school, the pregnant women from the hospital, the father from the son, .....? Have you seen the snipers targeting children coming out from school? Have you seen the people being crushed by tanks? Have you seen the land being confiscated? Have you seen the people who have lost thier source of income and livelihood? .....
If you have not, maybe you need to do so before you start saying things like you did. Let me tell you, watching CNN and the rest of media will give you a very distorted, biased, view of what is really happening.
I've heard a thousand times on TV how many people have been killed in suicide attacks, but not once have I heard (or seen) how many people have been killed by the israeli army.
Recently a 6 year old boy was shot in the head by a sniper while he was in a corner, scared. Was he a terrorist too? Were all the kids in the schools terrorists? Were the doctors, nurses, and paitents terrorists too? Look it up, you will find the facts.
Don't tell me that the Palestinians aren't fighting for a home land.
Let me ask you something. What do you do if someone is stealing your car infront of you? Just let him take it and smile? or do you stand up for yourself (or at least try)?
Do you know what the whole point of the 2nd ammendment is? Does it by any chance have something to do with protection against oppression? That is exactly whats happening to the palastinians, they are oppressed and they are doing whatever they can to free themselves.
Think about and reflect, look at the facts. If you have a conscious, and any idea about what is right and what is wrong, you will see the truth.
Let me ask you:
"What's the matter? Can't handle the truth?"
If you could handle it, you would research it, figure out what is really going on instead of making false statements.
The Isreali army certainly jump the gun a lot and have a bad reputation, especially during the Sharon administration.
But this military is under constant scrutiny of the UN Human Rights Commission, Amnesty International, etc. You know what they say about this army?
Nothing. Sh*t happens when you're in a military that's constantly fighting.
They are, In belgium several groups were trying to get Sharon under charges of genocide and all that stuff
Power Game, pal. I can tell you are emotional about this but as I see it, the PLO or its cohorts hit Isreal. Isreal hits back harder. PLO or its cohorts doesn't get the message and and hits Isreal again. Isreal hits back harder. Get the message. The Palestinians, who are really Jordanians, are willing to put to death their own women and children to present a sympathatic image of themselves to the world (especially the radical Arab world) so the world will condeme Isreal. Sorry, but if you hit, expect to get hit back, sometimes harder. Isreal has shown that they are willing to stop military actions when the Palestanians do. They elect not to do that which means they want to live like they have for 2000 years or longer. If you mess with the bull, you get the horn. In the Middle East, Isreal is the bull. All of the death and dying on all sides is stupid and a crying shame. But your man Yassar (who may in fact be Ringo Starr) has been resposible for most of it. He somehow managed to get filthy wealthy in the process.
Woah, woah, Arafat is not my man. I never even mentioned his name. My views are totally irrespective of him or any other leaders. I don't know what is really going on with these leaders, but I can tell you about the civilian population. I am defending the palestinian civilian population, not any leaders.
What you say about hitting and getting hit back makes sense, except it is the other way around.
The israeli gov't hits the palestinians, takes thier land, kills them; and the palestinians try to fight back. It is that simple,
Show me anywhere in history where a people are being oppressed and do not resist. Come on man, it happened in America, why do you think we have a constitution and a bill of rights? To remove oppression.
"What you say about hitting and getting hit back makes sense, except it is the other way around.
The israeli gov't hits the palestinians, takes thier land, kills them; and the palestinians try to fight back. It is that simple. "
On the first day that Israel became a state, the joint armies of all the arab countries invaded them, vowing to drive the jews into the sea. Israel fought back, and despite the fact that a full 1% of the population died, they managed to emerge victorious.
Israel even gave back most of the land they conquered, both in this first war and then in the six-days-war (where all the arab armies again united to destroy israel, and were again defeated.)
Not all, but most...
who's the aggressor there?
[At the moment, the answer is - both. Israelis use excessive violence, so do Palestinians, neither side is right anymore. Unfortunately. Hopefully with the death of Arafat something will change, maybe within the next couple of years some settlement can be reached...]
Max, they attacked because the UN and other non-arabs decided the land governed and populated by a majority arab population should be someone else's new home. Think about that for a moment.................your people have lived somewhere for a few generations ruling the land........and suddenly foreign powers tell you it's someone else's new homeland. Do you just shrug your shoulders and go live somewhere else? Different arab groups may kill and hate each other but they will at times unite against non-arabs, hence the war you mentioned.
Thank you AAAA,
"On the first day that Israel became a state"
This is a major probelm "that Israel became a state". Where did this land for a state come from, was anyone living there before? States don't just come out of nowhere. This is the first time that land was taken unjustly and the people were driven out. If you don't expect them to fight back, what do you expect them to do?
I suggest you read some history about how modern Israel came into being and then come back and tell me how it was obviously going to work. If you are good enough to give a convincing argument I may even reconsider my views. Until you read some history about Sir Moses Montifiore(sp), Balfour Declaration, UN involvement re. Israel and May 1948 your opinions will remain flawed and of little value.
jerk, It's the UN and not the League of Nations. You too should read some history.
I learnt something about the land of Canaan, Solomon and the two kingdoms, the banishment and enslavement of the jewish people by the Romans( I think/from memory), the ottoman empire and other things.
Go read some history.
I'm debating in my own mind who has 'rights' to land; people who lived there in biblical and maybe classical times but were then banished or the people who lived there during the most recent centuries upto the present day.
Not exactly, Menachim Bagen and Yitzhak Shamir had an earlier start than Arafat. Were they statesmen or terrorists? If they were statesmen, then so was Arafat. If Arafat was a terrorist, then so were they.
A4, I don't know where you live but if it is in North or South America, please pack you bags and go home. This land was already taken when your ancestors got here (unless you are Native). My people were here until you killed us, starved us and forced us on reservations. Now, go read some history books yourself. With all that said, your Palestanian folks will never have the country of Isreal for their homeland. They need to get over it, take the land, build something out of it and get on with life so when they die, they will still be in one piece.
When the first zionists showed up 1/2 of them died of malaria because the land was unsettled. The entire land that is Israel had aproximately 500,000 arabs on it. The Palestinians are from the Transjordan area. The arabs didn't want the land that the jews inhabit, because it was uninhabitable before they arrived. I never really looked at the arabs in the area before Israel was founded, but I suspect they were nomadic. Just like the jewish settlements everyone complains about. They have taken inhospitable land and made it habitable. Are the jews suppose to just leave everything they've built? Do you really believe the people we call Palestinians made Palestine a great place to live before the jews?
The first zionists were communist/socialists leaving Russia and Europe. The movement wasn't exactly religious. When exactly did the Palestinians become displaced anyway? I don't want the date that Israel was officially recognized, I want the date that the Palestinians were thrown off their land by the jews.
As for being the father of modern terrorism, I would look at Lenin, Stalin, and the early communists/anarchists. They actually wrote the book. They looked at it as a way to foment descent. Look how easily college age people are to lead and look at the age of most terrorists. Student movements have been the bedrock of communism and communism sounds so romantic. Look at the modern movements. You all talk about religious zealots, but look at the atheists. Atheistic movements have collectivly killed more people in this century than religious.
Separate names with a comma.