Is Tommy Hass basically a Federer who was prone to injury?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by DRII, Jun 16, 2012.

  1. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Assuming Hass would not have had so many lapses during his career due to injury; would he have been as successful as Federer (or close to it)?

    I think Hass has just as much variety as Federer. If his confidence could have gradually grown over the years, without large injury gaps, I think he could have been as good as Federer with near as much explosiveness and even a better backhand. I don't think Hass is naturally as fast as Federer, or have as big a forehand but everything is very close (potential wise)...
     
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  2. norbac

    norbac Legend

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    I don't think he is as talented as Fed, but I do think that if he would've been luckier he might have won a couple of Slams in the early 2000's.

    Still, credit to Tommy for keeping at it and working hard after every injury. Admirable how he has come back time after time.
     
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  3. Evan77

    Evan77 Banned

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    first of all Haas is one of my favorite players. Huge talent. so much fun to watch. so versatile, huge BH, great FH ... big net game, very smart player. I think that his biggest problem was in the mental department (aside his injuries). He reminds me a bit of Safin, because they are both nut cases. Safin did manage to win 2 slams tho.

    If he had been able to control his nerves (also, being injury free) he would have been a multiple GS champion. so sad.

    also, that accident he had, almost destroyed his career, but it's great to see him back playing well.
     
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  4. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    He probably could have picked up a slam or two early on at the AO if he didn't get himself injured/family issues/etc.


    Haas is a smarter player than Federer, much craftier tactician, and plays way better at the net than Federer does. He fully utilizes his entire arsenal of tools unlike Federer who is content with trying to outslug baseliners from the back of the court (for whatever reason, but it's a huge reason why he lost to Nadal at the FO in 2005, 2006, and 2007 along with his "unclutch" nature when put under pressure for such a good player).


    That being said, Federer is a better mover, a more talented shotmaker, has more innate physical skills with his hands (flick shots, drop shots, trick shots, etc.) along with a much better serve and forehand, which are key in surviving in the ATP.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2012
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  5. BeHappy

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    Yes, but not as quick. Took Federer to 5 sets in Grand slams multiple times (AO '06, RG '09). Definitely would have won a slam if he hadn't missed 4-5 years of his career due to injuries and his parents car crash.

    His serve is as good as Federer's, backhand is better,forehand not quite in the same league Nalbandian/Safin level). Tactically he was incredible and only Andre Agassi is as good at taking the ball early as Haas particularly off the backhand wing. Never seen anyone else stop Nadal from making them hit a single backhand above their waist.
     
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  6. Evan77

    Evan77 Banned

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    great points guys. I'd just say one more thing ... If I was Djoko, Rafa and Fed I wouldn't want to see Haas on the other side of the net at Wimbledon. 34 yo, ranked #87 and still playing some amazing tennis... just awesome
     
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  7. Warriorroger

    Warriorroger Hall of Fame

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    He is the player I always hoped to win a slam. Such a talented, beautiful player to watch. I am very happy that he and Roger meet. Great tennis.
     
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  8. bluehshoe

    bluehshoe New User

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    Think Haase is more like a Henman than a fed.
     
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  9. Gaudio2004

    Gaudio2004 Semi-Pro

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    I disagree, Haas doesn't have the variety (or consistency or even power to an extent) on the forehand side that Federer has, not from an attacking perspective, not from a rally-ball perspective or even from a defensive forehand perspective (Federer can use the squash shot on his forehand and many others, he often uses slice down the line, etc, Haas has a mechanical and operational set-up to his forehand).

    The results say something else (16 wins to not even a final), Haas's injury problems have stunted him hugely but it is worth saying that he had some mental problems and at very close matches in Majors, fitness and technical problems, which were the reasons for him losing.

    Ludicrous, Haas had a reputation early on his career (and partly due to his upbringing at the Nick Bollettieri academy) for not being a smart player on the court, definitely not smarter than Federer!

    Another ludicrous statement. How can you believe this? Finding a better tactician than Federer is hard enough, yet saying Haas is better is just baffling!

    Not really... Haas has good volleys (on both sides) but Federer is better at the net; he can do more with his volleys and has better movement up to the net and has better (and more varied) approach shots.

    He doesn't - at times he abuses the drop-shot and especially earlier on his career, was too one dimenionsional.

    It's funny how Haas has (or was until he serve and volleyed in 2009) one of those/these baseliners who Federer was out-slugging. Watching their early AO matches shows Federer is the player with not only more variety, but with better fitness and utilising more weapons.

    Federer is also better at the net, utilises better tactics against nearly all opponents, has more variety, has better fitness (and less injuries, of course) and plays at a faster rate than Haas does; Haas is an expert at taking time away from his opponents, but when faced against players such as Blake, Safin, Nalbandian, Davydenko all near the talent of Haas and sharing similar careers in terms of success, they are players who also take time away and he has trouble with it. Federer does it more than anyone else and it makes Haas uncomfortable (at times).

    From which view? Placement? Power?

    Blake, Nalbandian, Safin, Davydenko are 4 players who took the ball just as well on the rise, and of course, Federer.

    --

    Haas deserves recognition for sure, but some of the comparisons here (to Federer also) are ludicrous, a little perspective is needed to be honest!

    That being said, Haas is one of the old-guard and is refreshing to watch, on his day he has superb groundstrokes, superb serve & return, great volleys and great court positioning with aggressive tactics. Other days he is a shadow of himself.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2012
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  10. above bored

    above bored Semi-Pro

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    Is this really a serious question? Come on, Haas is a solid pro who can beat anyone on his day, but Federer is in a completely different league.

    Even with his family and injury trouble, if Haas was in the same sort of league as Federer he would have better results than he does. As far as ability is concerned, Federer has much more game than Haas in all areas.
     
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  11. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    No.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k_Z6Ijd2DY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jnc-N2mkfM

    Haas missed his entire prime. Everytime he got a conistent run together he'd start pushing Federer like this then get injured and have to start from square one.
     
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  12. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    You and aboveboard have pretty much ignored the entire premise of this thread!

    I guess you two are unaware or completely clueless about the extreme negative impact a break in momentum can have on a player's career! Particularly when it's injuries that are constantly forcing you to effectively start over and thus losing confidence and even physical ability.

    Delpotro is a prime example of this; he a shadow of his 2009 form. I think he's actually afraid to hit out the way he used for fear of reinjuring his wrist...

    Imagine if Federer suffered a serious injury after his fist slam and did not ride and build the wave of momentum he had garnered; could have resulted in a whole different story!

    At the very least, if Hass was injury free, he would have been a much bigger rival to Federer...
     
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  13. okdude1992

    okdude1992 Hall of Fame

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    this thread is absurd. haas is a very very talented player, who was a total headcase, and had obvious injury problems. Fact is, the guy is/was always very erratic and could have great days where he'd compete with anyone, and also off days where he'd lose to anyone.

    Saying he had the potential to be as good as federer is like saying Nalbandian has the potential to be as good as Federer. Difference is, even at Haas' absolute best i don't see him being as good as Fed. Nalby when on (rarely) actually proved he could beat fed, nadal, djoko ect.
     
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  14. okdude1992

    okdude1992 Hall of Fame

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    Anyway, I've always liked Tommy and if he'd been more healthy/consistent he definately could have sneaked out a slam in the early 2000s
     
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  15. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    Both placement and power and none of those guys took the ball as early as Haas still does off hi backhand. It's incredible.
     
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  16. above bored

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    Gille Simon and Andreev push Federer, doesn't mean they are anywhere near him in talent and ability. There are many examples today and throughout the history of tennis of less able players pushing and beating much better players. It just means they are good players, it does not mean they are in the same league.
     
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  17. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    Were they world no.2? How many Grand slam semi's have they reached? What was the standard of tennis like in their matches with Federer and how do you think it can be compared with Haas's two 5 setters with Fed? Weren't they more reliant on Federer playing badly than rising to Federer's level like Haas did?
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2012
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  18. above bored

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    Some were better, world No.1s such as Hewitt, Safin and Roddick, some No.2s such as Murray or Ivanesivic, some No.3s such as Davydenko and Ljubicic and so on.
     
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  19. above bored

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    To answer the rest of your question, each of the players I listed are excellent players capable of beating anyone on a good day. Haas is not necessarily more capable than them and is worse than most of them.
     
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  20. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Agree. Haas is talented but he is not as talented as Federer.
     
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  21. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    Gilles Simon and Andreev were World no. 2?
     
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  22. above bored

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    No, which proves my case even more that being able to push and beat Federer does not mean you are in the same league, it just means you are an outstanding tennis player.

    You posted 2 clips of Haas pushing Federer, not even winning, as evidence that Haas is Federer's equal or close to, but for his injuries. That's just poor reasoning and poor evidence, for the reasons already mentioned.
     
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  23. above bored

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    Injury Haas (haha) obviously affected Haas' career, but it is a gargantuan leap to even suggest he might have had the career of an all time great lower in the picking order such as Lendl, Agassi, Nadal or McEnroe, not to mention Becker and Edberg, let alone someone considered by many to be the GOAT like Federer.

    As for Del Potro, he is hardly a shadow of the player he was in 2009. He's playing just as well and has posted some good results. Just because he won the US Open in 2009 does not mean he was playing better that year than he is now. How well other players play also affects your results.
     
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  24. kishnabe

    kishnabe G.O.A.T.

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    2002 AO should have been his. Safin losing to Haas would be far more acceptable than Johannson.
     
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  25. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Obviously your judgement can't be trusted if you think Delpo is as good as the end of 2009!

    Also, by extension you are saying that Federer is playing just about as well as he ever has, discounting the basic argument of Fedephants everywhere ...
     
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  26. ARIARAIDEN

    ARIARAIDEN Rookie

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    Peak Haas without Injury would beat every Version of Federer except Peak Federer 2005-2007.
     
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  27. above bored

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    The only real result of note for Del Potro in 2009 was the US Open, which could just as easily have gone Federer's way, despite him serving poorly (in the 40s for most of the match) and having a later and tougher semi the previous night. The WTF final and French semi result get special mention, where he was beaten by Davydenko and Federer respectively. I can't see anything about Del Potro's level of play that year that I have not seen this year. He has played well this year.

    As for Federer, he has been playing well for a while now. I wouldn't go as far to say he is playing the best he has ever played or he would not be playing any better if he were 5 or 10 years younger and fresher, but he is playing well, especially for someone in their 3rd decade at this level.
     
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  28. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    I agree that Federer served relatively poorly in that match. However, Delpo was also hitting some of the heaviest, most blistering forehands I have ever seen from any man! He has yet to reach the same level of ground-strokes again...
     
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  29. above bored

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    Del Potro is still Del Potro. His muscles have not shrunk since 2009 nor has his technique deteriorated, he may even have improved since 2009 as we are talking almost 3 years ago, but the tour never stands still. The guy still hits big and periodically unleashes the big forehands seen in the 2009 US open final. Just like back then, those forehands are periodic, not standard, and they have to be caught just right. Towards the end of that US open final Del Potro's play may have looked more impressive than it actually was because by then Federer was physically and mentally spent and his game had lost its sting.
     
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  30. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    no, not even close. Haas could have won a slam or two if he had held himself mentally together and not been affected so much by injuries , but he always lacked that x-factor and mental strength to truly dominate ...

    forehand and movement wise, he's way behind federer. Ditto for clutchness ( including serve ) and mental strength .

    even an in-form haas couldn't take a set off federer playing well at wimbledon in 2009 ..

    he did take 2 sets off at AO in 2006 and at the FO 2009, but that was more because of federer's level going south more so than haas playing brilliant tennis ( haas played decently, but wouldn't have been enough to take more than a set if federer was playing well ... )
     
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  31. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    actually their level of play in those matches ( AO 2011 and USO 2008 ) was just as good, if not better than haas' in AO 2006 and FO 2009 ....
     
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  32. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Kind of like asking "Would Ferrer have been as succesfull as Nadal were he a lefty?", although this would probably be closer to the truth than the OP's premise, I'm afraid...
     
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  33. PrinceMoron

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    Am I right in thinking that he was sponsored/owned by Tiriac?
     
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  34. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Can't see it, at their respective best Fed at the very least has significantly better FH, serve and movement. I think Haas would have won 1-2 slams if not for his various injuries but dominate to the extent that Fed did?
     
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  35. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    so much wisdom in the op
     
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  36. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Again, do you not understand the premise???

    Hass' respective best has, most likely, been affected by his many injuries (some of which were significant)...

    Hass still made it to number 2 and threatened to win some slams even with the injuries and large gaps in his career; imagine if he could have capitalized on his momentum...

    Another way of putting it: what if Federer had suffered some significant injury at the end of 2003 that forced him to lay off tennis for months? Would he have still dominated the way he has?

    Federer has hardly suffered from any injury, none that has caused any long pause in his career. Although many of his devotees constantly bring up his supposed back issues or mono in 2008, as the excuse and main reason he was less dominant every since and Nadal took #1 away from him :twisted:
     
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  37. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    I understand the premise, I just disagree with it.

    Haas wasn't injured 24/7, even in periods when he was healthy and playing well I still didn't see him reach that level that is necessaryto dominate the game, that is my opinion.

    I did imagine it, and in that hypothetical scenario I could see Haas grabbing a few slams but not dominating the game (especially not to the extent Fed did).

    Obviously he wouldn't have.

    Oh Fed certainly had his fair share of injures (back, thigh, muscle tear, ankle, wrist etc. Sure he's not injury prone as Haas is but then again not many players are, heck I remember Haas getting injured during a warm-up against Tipsarevic one year.

    Yes of course, all of Fed's injury issues throghout his entire career are fake but every one of Nadal's 1001 injuries are real, sell that crap to someone else, I ain't buying.
     
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  38. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Nice non-answers and or contradictions...
     
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  39. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    Vindication is nice.
     
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  40. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    translation:

    DRII : I have no reply .... I got owned

    Don't you think its a bit of leap to assume that a player who hasn't reached a slam final would be anywhere close if not for his injuries, to federer, a GOAT candidate ?? well duh !!!!!! if not for injuries, haas winning a slam or two is pretty much possible, but reaching close to federer ? LOLLLLLLLLLLL !!!!!!
     
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  41. sunny_cali

    sunny_cali Semi-Pro

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    Right. It vindicates how badly Fed has declined in general, and especially on grass.
     
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  42. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    I'd agree with this, 1-2 slams but to slow too be a truly dominant player.
     
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  43. BeHappy

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    He was playing an older, slower, more banged up version of himself so you can throw those excuses out.
     
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  44. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    I gave you a pretty clear answer but here I'll try make it even clearer:

    Even in those periods when he was healthy I didn't see anything in Haas's game that would make me believe he's capable of dominating the field, capable of winning a slam or two? Sure, but not another Sampras, Federer or Nadal type of dominator.

    When I saw Fed in 2001 I thought he had the talent to be the next great player but not the head, with Haas I never thought he had enough talent to be the next great player.
     
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  45. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    That is true, Fed has no excuses for losing this match. However one match doesn't prove anything especially since we're talking about dominating the whole field here (the way Fed did for 4 years) not any particular match or match-up.
     
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  46. sunny_cali

    sunny_cali Semi-Pro

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    Why is a gradual decline in your skills as time goes by an excuse ? And what do you think it vindicated anyway ? Surely not that Haas was a greater grass court player than Federer ?
     
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  47. Benhur

    Benhur Hall of Fame

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    The bolded may be the only explanation needed. Being “close potential wise” doesn’t cut it in tennis. All the top 20 are very close potential wise. Haas was good, but I don't recall him playing like Federer when Federer was at his very best.
     
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  48. 2ndServe

    2ndServe Professional

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    not even close and I kind of like Tommy but these two are so far apart skill wise, explosiveness, movement, fluidity, the list goes on.
     
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  49. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Obviously all you're interested in is scoring points; hence you hardly ever truly add to any discussion...

    BTW, the only one who got owned today was your guy by the guy this thread is about!

    Zagor contradicted himself by stating that an injury layoff would have affected Federer's career and dominance; which is essentially agreeing with the main premise of this thread (by inverse)!

    To what degree (for each) is what's in disagreement and being discussed...
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2012
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  50. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Not really, any serious injury would have affected the career of any player who ever picked up a racquet so obviously Fed is no exception in that regard, seriously the question was pretty stupid with only one possible answer. Honestly it akin to saying that Laver wouldn't have won the Calendar Grand Slam in 1969 if he was seriously injured, therefore that proves that if Haas wasn't injury prone he would have won the Calendar Grand Slam at some point, do you even realize how ridiculous this whole thing is?

    But here, since I have to spell it out for you, even if Fed was as injury prone as Haas, I still think he would have ended as a multiple slam winner and even if Haas was as "healthy" as Fed was throghout the career I still don't see him being the dominating player, as I said I could see him winning a few slams at most but that's about it.

    No, the main premise of the thread is whether Haas would be as good as Fed if he wasn't injury prone, I already gave my opinion on that,
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2012
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