Is Venus Williams at her best unbeatable

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by NadalAgassi, Apr 18, 2011.

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Is Venus at her best unbeatable

  1. Yes Venus at her best is unbeatable

    12.7%
  2. Venus at her best is unbeatable by any women in history only on grass

    9.8%
  3. No, Venus at her best is definitely not unbeatable

    77.5%
  1. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Do you believe Venus Williams at her best was unbeatable. By unbeatable I mean unbeatable even by Serena Williams at her best, even by Henin at her best, even by past greats like Navratilova, Evert, or Graf at their best.
     
    #1
  2. tenis1

    tenis1 Banned

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    Henin or Evert or Seles would beat her on clay any time they play, no matter how good she plays.

    Hence not unbeatable.
     
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  3. billnepill

    billnepill Hall of Fame

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    lol, I read that many times.

    You have to give as a surface though. Obviously Venus's best is enough to beat Serena at Wimbledon and hence only few players can touch her on that surface in her best years.

    Bringing past greats into this is tricky, as I am sure you realize.

    P.S Now I noticed you put grass in the poll options. Still, UNBEATABLE sounds way too extreme, no? She will victorious most of the times, playing her best on grass, but def not unbeatable.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2011
    #3
  4. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    Quite a few players at their best are unbeatable. How long can they sustain it? A set, a match, one tournament?
     
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  5. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    Nobody's "best" is ever unbeatable for more than 5 years, simply because raising the bar of excellence gives up and coming players new standards to train for -- and exceed.
     
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  6. jones101

    jones101 Hall of Fame

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    Yes, I've always thought that about her, but if her serve/fh is off, she can be extremely erratic, its the gift and curse of being a fan of Venus - her inconsistency.

    Though she is too injury prone to dominate event after event, she can beat anybody on her day.

    I also think she has the most clay titles out of any active player, and top 3 best win loss % on the surface too. Very underrated player on the clay IMO.
     
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  7. jones101

    jones101 Hall of Fame

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    I must add I think her and Steffi in thir primes on a grass court is one of my alltime fantasy matchups.

    Baby Venus played a past prime Graf and they had an amazing match.

    Steffi, at her best, however, was unbeatable!
     
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  8. Gimmick

    Gimmick Semi-Pro

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    The saddest part of Venus's legacy is how many matches she allowed her little sis to take early on to build Serena's confidence instead of crushing her. I think she really believed when she gave Serena the room to win that she could take it back after Serena had a few GS's under her belt but age/injury caught up with her faster than she was able to shore up her own legacy.

    I'm sure she doesn't regret it because she loves her little sis but from the standpoint of a fan who intensely dislikes Serena but admires Venus I will do the regretting for her.
     
    #8
  9. single_handed_champion

    single_handed_champion Professional

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    Yes, Venus is far more unbeatable than Serena, for instance. But not as unbeatable as Graf, for sure, or Evert or Navratilova. She is only not unbeatable on clay.
     
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  10. tenniswarrior

    tenniswarrior Banned

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    Nobody is unbeatable.
     
    #10
  11. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    #11
  12. tenniswarrior

    tenniswarrior Banned

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    Serena vs Venus is a little like Nadal vs Nadal, anyone agree?
     
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  13. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    For the record even though I am the thread starter I dont think Venus at her best is even close to unbeatable. As another poster pointed out Venus playing her best would be destroyed by Evert, Seles, Graf, or Henin playing their best on clay, so that already defeats the idea at her best she is unbeatable point blank. If you restrict it to even just grass I think even there that there are players who at their best could beat her at hers including Serena, Graf, Navratilova, and possibly some of the past streaky lesser known greats like Goolagong or Mandlikova. The 2005 Wimbledon final was an example of Venus playing close to her best and she had to save a match point vs the duck footed Davenport, and was trailing almost the whole match. The 2001 Wimbledon final was Venus playing her absolute best at her career peak and she still lost a set to a baby Henin on her worst surface, which she was never that good on even in her later prime years (she never won Wimbledon remember).

    So the easy vote for me was no.
     
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  14. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    Venus v Serena?
     
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  15. tenniswarrior

    tenniswarrior Banned

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    Also, she isn't unbeatable because she can get injured and have to retire, which counts as a loss. :)
     
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  16. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Oh My Goodness!!! I know you started this thread to mock me and my opinion the peak Venus beats any other woman in peak form on a nuetral surface (medium to fast hardcourt).

    But to claim that 2005 Wimbledon final Venus was her peak is absolutely ridiculous! I beleive she was coming off of injuries recently that year and had played relatively little tennis - she was no where near peak. She was playing better in her 2008 win over Serena at Wimbledon, actually 2008 was the last year both sisters were playing well at the same time...

    That 2005 final only demonstrated Venus' mental toughness and improvizational skills, thats it.

    Anyway, more than one person agreed with me. So you have been proven wrong again!!!
     
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  17. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Last I checked there were alot more votes for NO then YES idiot. :lol:

    I didnt say the 2005 Wimbledon final was Venus at her best, I said near her best. And it obviously was otherwise the match wouldnt have been called a classic at the time. 2001 Wimbledon final was Venus at her absolute best and she went to 3 sets with a pre prime Henin on her worst surface by far which she wouldnt win a big title on even in her much later peak years. Yes Venus at her best sure is unbeatable. :rolleyes:

    And Venus's best surface by far is grass, so your point about a medium to fast hard court being where she would own all in history at their mutual best is even more laugahble. A women who won her last non grass big title at 21 cannot be touched on a hard court at her best, is about as logical as arguing Seles at her best on grass is unbeatable or Serena at her best on clay cant be touched by any women ever.
     
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  18. MagneticCurls

    MagneticCurls Banned

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    Venus was definitely tough at her best. I doubt Graf or Serena could beat her, but probably Seles could.
     
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  19. tenis1

    tenis1 Banned

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    I approve this message.

    BTW I didn't realize what this thread was about, but not a nice thing to do by NadalAgassi.
     
    #19
  20. LDVTennis

    LDVTennis Professional

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    Seles couldn't beat Hingis at her peak, but somehow she was going to beat Venus.

    Thanks for the laugh.

    As to Venus, if she were truly unbeatable, why didn't she ever win RG?
     
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  21. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    On grass???
     
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  22. LDVTennis

    LDVTennis Professional

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    Yes, one would have to be "on grass" to think Seles could beat Venus at her "unbeatable" best.

    That is what you meant.
     
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  23. tenniswarrior

    tenniswarrior Banned

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    She isn't unbeatable. I think about beating her all the time. ;)
     
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  24. tenis1

    tenis1 Banned

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    You are wrong. Seles who played Hingis wis demoralized, mentally injured, overweight Seles and was far from her peak. Hence your comment does not prove anything.

    Peak "no stabbing" Seles could beat anyone on clay.
     
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  25. Joe Pike

    Joe Pike Banned

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    This is funny - you declare every match which Venus lost as a non-peak match.
    So we have to look at the scorelines of great players' wins against top opposition.

    I give you an example:
    Steffi Graf beat
    in 86 a #1 player 62 63
    in 87 a #1 player 63 62, a #2 player 62 61, a #3 player 62 61
    in 88 a #3 player 61 62
    in 89 a #3 player 63 61
    in 91 a #1 player 64 63
    in 92 a #1 player 62 61
    in 94 a #2 player 60 62 and 62 61
    in 95 a #3 player 62 62
    in 96 a #2 player 63 61
    in 99 a #3 player 62 60.

    Those opponents were named Navratilova (18 slams), Evert (18 slams), Seles (9 slams), Sanchez (4 slams) among others.
    Matches were on grass, clay, indoors, fast HC, slow HC.

    What about Venus?
     
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  26. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    yet Graf has a Positive H2H vs her...

    go figure.

    Anyways, Venus at her best is also the most accomplished nuclear scientist and the best singer in Britain's got talent (granted she was given some sort of british citizenship - i say welsh...)
     
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  27. Joe Pike

    Joe Pike Banned

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    And which would be the surface on which Seles could beat Venus but Steffi not?
    :):):)
     
    #27
  28. cucio

    cucio Legend

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    If Venus indeed played at her very best, I don't think even Nadal in Monte-Carlo could win a set against her.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2011
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  29. tenniswarrior

    tenniswarrior Banned

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    Carpet, stained with blood.
     
    #29
  30. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    Venus at her best makes the sun revolve around the earth!
     
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  31. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    You keep proving to everyone that you are incredibly illogical! You said that I was the only to think peak Venus is the best - proven wrong!

    I chose to concentrate on a medium to fast hardcourt because it is a nuetral surface, not because Venus has the best chance to win on it! Venus is best on grass and I don't think anyone could touch her on it (at peak). Graf would come the closest!

    Also, Venus won the 2008 WTA Championships, a very big title on a hardcourt, way past the age of 21. Get your facts straight!
     
    #31
  32. Joe Pike

    Joe Pike Banned

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    Who do you think was closer to her peak in the Wimbledon 99 quarters - Steffi Graf or Venus Williams?
     
    #32
  33. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    I can't believe there's posters actually vote Venus is unbeatable. It's good to be a fan of certain player, but come on...no one is unbeatable.
     
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  34. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Real big titles in tennis are the slams of course which is what I was referring to. OK if you want to really stretch further though and include WTA Championships, Miami, Olympics, Indian Wells, and Canada, all as big hard court titles, then Venus and her hardcourt GOAT game has won a grand total of 1 big hard court title since turning 22 out of the atleast 6 played per year. Happy now. And add to that she never won Australia and won her only WTA Championships at almost 30 as you pointed out, so basically at 2 of the 3 biggest hard court events she went almost her whole career without winning. Yet this is the player who at her best cant be touched on a neutral hard court, so Iguess she just never plays her best according to you, LOL!

    Right and I suppose next you are going to tell everyone Venus at her best beats Evert, Henin, or Graf at their best on clay, and that Venus at her best beats Navratilova at her best on carpet. Keep the comedy rolling for all of us.


    For the record since she was brought up in this thread I do think Venus is a horrible matchup for Seles so would definitely beat Seles if both were playing their best. However she isnt such a bad matchup for alot of other players.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2011
    #34
  35. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    I think Graf was far closer as far as competence and tennis acumen to her peak but was physically a step or two lower.

    Venus was near her peak physically, she was very lean and quick but in 2001 she was stronger and more robust and balanced. However, as far as tennis competence Venus was far from her peak; she was much less consistent especially on her forehand and her ground strokes in general lacked the consistent penetration of 2001. I think venus' defense was pretty much all there but her explosive offense was not as linear and continuous.

    So overall, Graf was closer IMO.
     
    #35
  36. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Blame the OP's inability to properly phrase a question!
     
    #36
  37. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    I admit this is a poor thread. But for you to believe this is wrong then why even bother take your part on the poll, and vote Venus at her best would be unbeatable?:confused:
     
    #37
  38. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    And yet, you voted Venus at her best is unbeatable. Unbelievable !
     
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  39. heftylefty

    heftylefty Hall of Fame

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    No one is "unbeatable" at their best. Not Venus. Not Graf. Not both Martinas.

    That being said. Venus on her game is very hard to beat. She moves better than any woman close to her height. And the only play on the WTA Tour that can outhit her is her sister.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2011
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  40. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    I disagree. Graf's big fh can outhit her on grass(and fast grass). Stosur huge fh can outhit her on clay.
     
    #40
  41. Objective Danny

    Objective Danny Hall of Fame

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    Martina 'tennis' Hingis, when she was at the top of her game, defeated Venus on a regular basic.
     
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  42. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    Not no one but Nole
     
    #42
  43. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Uhm fyi,

    Venus won the 2005 Wimbledon final!
     
    #43
  44. Tanya

    Tanya Professional

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    In my opinion Venus at her best is the most explosive and athletic female tennis player of all time. When everything is clicking, Venus has every weapon in the book. Bomb of a serve, great foot speed, powerful groundstrokes, solid net game. Whether or not her best is "unbeatable" I don't know, but her best is certainly extremely difficult to defeat.
     
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  45. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Interesting. So you consider her more "explosive" than Serena at her best and more athletic than Navratilova or Graf at their best. I guess I could see a best combination of both maybe, but not quite either seperately.
     
    #45
  46. LDVTennis

    LDVTennis Professional

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    #46
  47. jones101

    jones101 Hall of Fame

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    Yes, I do think Venus at her best is as close to unbeatable as you can get, yet I feel Steffi at her best is also, whats 'unbelievable' about that? Cant I think of more than one player? Sorry, I did't realise!

    Also Venus is 4-0 against Stosur, and has not dropped a set against her. And is 3-0 against Stosur ON CLAY. She also beat her last year 6-3 6-3 in Stosur's career best year on the surface.

    Venus is an absolute horrible matchup for Sam IMO. She is tall enough to handle her kick serve, moves better than Sam, and can hit harder overall on both wings.
     
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  48. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Stosur is a joke. I mean she is a good player but the hype around her after her French Open run last year was ridiculous. And it wasnt that great a performance was it was made out to be. She beats a crappy Henin who was at about 40% of her old level in 3 tough sets, then barely beat Serena on clay which isnt that big a deal at this point in Serena's career on that particular surface, then an abysmal Jankovic who as usual folded in her big opportunity. Then in the final she is hyped up to blow old lady Schiavone off the court and Schiavone outclasses her and proves since to be the better player of the two as well. On any surface other than clay she cant even remotely contend.

    I doubt she ever makes another slam final.

    And yes Venus at her best would easily beat Stosur on any surface, even clay. Maybe she isnt a better clay courter, especialy today, but Stosur's game is an easy matchup for her.
     
    #48
  49. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    Remarkable this thread exists when Venus is 30 yrs old. Sharapova, at her best was unbeatable on every surface except clay. But how long did that last? The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong—but how come? One good reason: Ours is an imperfect world, full to the brim with imperfect people. Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.
     
    #49
  50. cocolate

    cocolate Banned

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    One thing is sure....she is unbeatable by me at my best:))
     
    #50

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