It's generally agreed that Borg was the real No. 1 in 1977

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by 5555, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Bud Collins summarized it this way in his record book of tennis:

    "But even though World Tennis magazine declared Vilas No. 1 for the year, most other authorities disagreed and bestowed that mythical honor on Borg.
     
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  2. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I miss World Tennis Magazine. THAT was a real tennis magazine. They declared Becker year end #1 after he won Wimbledon and the USO in 1989, correctly notifying the ATP, which had Lendl ranked year end #1, that their ranking system was facaktin.
     
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  3. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

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    There is already a lot of threads about this question. And it's generally agreed that Vilas was the real n°1. It's an evidence. He won 16 tournaments (record), 2 Grand Slams, and 46 matches consecutively (record).
     
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  4. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Nope. It's Vilas.
     
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  5. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    It would seem that there is little "general agreement" here.



    It appears (to me) that the opinions are 50% for Vilas, 40% for Borg, and 10% for Connors (if that much).
     
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  6. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

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  7. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

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  8. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Two questions to be asked for 1977-Who had the best year?

    Who was the best player? Could be two different answers.

    I believe Borg was the best player but who had the best year.
     
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  9. sandy mayer

    sandy mayer Rookie

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    I reckon Connors was still the best player in 1977 and that Borg only overtook him in 78, but that Vilas had the best year and deserved to be considered number one for the year.
     
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  10. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Borg beat Connors at Wimbledon that year and at the Pepsi. Connors won the Masters over Borg that year.

    http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=B058&oId=C044
     
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  11. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    The Masters was held in January 1978.
     
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  12. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Yes but it's considered part of the 1977 season and is one of the things considered which they evaluated number one for 1977. I guess the best analogy is that the Super Bowl is held the next year but is considered a part of the previous year's NFL season.

    But I did write that year which is technically incorrect. My bad. I should have wrote that season.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2012
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  13. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    In 1977, Vilas won 16 tournaments, which included 2 majors, and won 72 of his last 73 matches of the year. Borg just doesn't have these numbers in 1977. Vilas is therefore number 1 for 1977.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2012
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  14. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Ranking discepancies easily resolved

    When people feel that end of year rankings have got it wrong, it usually when do a comparison on how players did at the slams and perhaps the season end finals. The issue I fee could be resolved by making the slams relatively more point laden. I feel the slams should be 3 times the ranking value of masters 1000s.

    Imagine if someone won cincinati and montreal one year should they feel as satisfied as someone winning wimbledon?
     
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  15. BauerAlmeida

    BauerAlmeida Semi-Pro

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    Vilas was.

    Although someone could think it was Borg. But it sure wasn't Connors.
     
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  16. DMan

    DMan Professional

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    Even though Connors was ranked #1 by the ATP Computer. Not that I agree with that!
     
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  17. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    His playing record for 1977 was 145 wins against 15 losses (ATP win-loss record was 130–15).
     
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  18. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

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    And he won 46 matches consecutively, which is the record. Djokovic won 43 in 2011, but was beaten by Federer in FO.
     
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  19. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Most experts said that Borg was the real No. 1 in 1977. It means it's generally agreed that Borg was the real No. 1 in 1977.

    It's irrelevant is there general agreement among non-experts. Can you provide a reliable source which says that there general agreement among experts?

    Djokovic has nothing to do with the topic. Your post is a troll.
     
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  20. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

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    What is an "expert" ? Is there a diploma ?
    Word Tennis, Tennis de France, Le livre d'or du tennis, Michel Sutter, Eugene L. Scott were not experts ?
     
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  21. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    This is an interesting point.

    Today, I'd say Borg was the better player, and Vilas had the better record for that year.
     
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  22. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    I have "no horse in this race."

    Do I really need to? Frankly, I have better things to do.

    Is Wikipedia a reliable source? That's a complex question.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2012
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  23. Gizo

    Gizo Hall of Fame

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    Vilas clearly had the best year in 1977 as highlighted by his 2 slam titles and 16 titles in total. Borg was clearly the best player in 1977 with his winning h2hs over Vilas (3-0) and Connors (2-1), and his standard of tennis from about March to November, where his only official defeat was a retirement, being far beyond anything that either of those other 2 produced.

    Agassi had the best year in 1999, while Sampras was the best player.

    I personally think that Roddick had a slightly better year in 2003 than Federer, but Federer was the best player.

    Ashe had the best year in 1975 with his Wimbledon and Dallas titles, while Connors was the best player.
     
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  24. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

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    And in 2006, Federer had the best year, but Nadal was better than him.
     
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  25. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Vilas won 72 of his last 73 matches of 1977, the only loss was controversial (spaghetti string). Borg doesn't have those numbers from March to November the same year. It was from July onwards when Vilas was at his best in 1977 and he didn't meet Borg in that period.
     
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  26. Gizo

    Gizo Hall of Fame

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    When Vilas was compiling that winning streak on clay, Borg was winning bigger tournaments on clay and carpet, with better fields and more prize money on offer. It's not about blindly following numbers alone but looking at the tennis played as well.

    As far as non-slam tournaments, he definately had more of a 'quality over quantity' approach than Vilas.

    From March to November Borg was beating better players and playing better tennis than Vilas did at the end of the year.

    Not to mention that Vilas was completely helpless in his 3 matches against Borg that year, winning just 1 set out of 8.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2012
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  27. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yet Vilas won the 2 biggest clay-court tournaments of the year in the French Open and US Open.

    I don't see how anyone can measure this, and who has actually seen all their matches in that period?

    One of those matches was in January 1978. Using your argument here, you can say that Nadal was a better player than Federer in 2006 because he beat Federer 4 times out of 6 matches.
     
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  28. Gizo

    Gizo Hall of Fame

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    A very good achievement and the main reason why Vilas had the best year.

    However Vilas's RG title was not part of that amazing run you were talking about. During Borg's great run he was winning big tournaments like Wimbledon on grass, Nice, Monte-Carlo, Madrid and Barcelona on clay, and Basel, Cologne and Wembley, with strong fields. Amazing versatility and dominance there.

    During Vilas's winning run every single one of the titles he won were on clay apart from Johannesburg on hard courts. And aside from the US Open (when fortunately for him his projected semi-final against Borg didn't materialise), many of the titles he was winning didn't have Borg in the draw. Of the reverse argument is that Borg was therefore winning titles in Vilas's absence, but of course Borg didn't any reason to be scared of Vilas during that period.

    That's the beauty of this discussion. It is subjective who was the best. Many of these matches are readily available for good prices through numerous outlets. Tennis is great sport so watching it and forming conclusions based on that is always a good idea.

    Ardently looking at stats alone without looking at the tennis played doesn't cut it and has the touch of 'trainspotting' about it.

    Again to repeat I have made it quite clear many times that Vilas had the best year and deserved to be a player of the year for 1977. I give 1978-1980 to Borg but not 1976 (although Connors both had better results and played the best tennis that year) or 1977.

    Who had the best year is based solely on achievements. However who was the best player is not just based solely on stats but also by judging the level of tennis played as well.


    Nope you are missing the point. I'm bringing in the h2h for the year as one factor, not the only factor. A huge difference. And at least Federer beat Nadal twice in 2006, on big stages (the Wimbledon final and Masters Cup), and was competitive with Nadal in 3 matches he lost (the Monte-Carlo final that year was a very underrated match). Vilas was steamrolled in all 3 matches.

    But of course all of that pales in comparison to Federer's 92-5 win-loss record for year and consistent excellent, only failing to reach the final once in 17 tournament appearances.

    And as you know very well with tennis's horrible organisation back then, the Masters in 1978 counts towards the 1977 season. That's why we say that Connors won the 1977 Masters and McEnroe won the 1978 event. I don't think anyone is throwing out Connors's Masters title from his 1977 achievements.

    Connors' victory over Borg in that tournament counts towards their 1977 records, so Borg's victory over Vilas does as well. You can flex the criteria when it suits you depending on who your favourite players are.
     
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  29. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

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    I'm not sure that Borg won bigger tournaments than Vilas. In finals of the tournaments he won, Borg beated only 2 Grand Slam winners : Vilas in Nice and Orantes in Barcelona. Vilas beated 4 Grand Slam winners : Smith in Springfield, Nastase in Virginia Beach, Kodes in Kitzbuhel, and Tanner in South Orange. On the other finals, Borg beated Gottfried, Barazzutti, Fillol, Lloyd and Fibak ; Vilas beated Gottfried, Fillol, Fibak, Dibbs, Higueras, Mottram, Roger-Vasselin.
     
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  30. Xavier G

    Xavier G Semi-Pro

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    My opinion about 1977 is that Vilas won most GS titles and most titles overall, but Borg won Wimbledon, was 3-0 up on Vilas and was best overall player on all surfaces. Who does that make the real no.1? I choose Borg, but others choose Vilas. No real wrong answer because it's so close, take your pick.
     
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  31. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

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    Vilas won more Grand Slams than Borg, more tournaments than Borg, more matches than Borg. He won tournaments on clay, on hard courts, and also indoor courts, and was finalist in Australia on grass courts. He is the world champion.
     
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  32. Xavier G

    Xavier G Semi-Pro

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    Actually, no, he wasn't. Look it up. :)
     
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  33. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    It could be two different answers. IMO, Borg was the better player throughout his career.
     
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  34. timnz

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    Vilas was number 1 for 1977 because he had the most achievements. Borg was the best player in 1977. They are different things. Rankings should always be based on achievements.
     
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  35. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    I remember the end of the 1989 season. Becker was in the zone for a couple of months in the later part of the year. I saw him play Wilander after the USO (on TV). Wilander was still a great player then and had just come off his own incredible 1988 season. Becker destroyed him. He was going completely Federer before that was even a thing.

    Lendl was super consistent, but Becker was the guy in 1989.
     
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  36. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

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    World Tennis said :
    "VILAS IS N°1 : When Borg destroyed Vilas 6/3 6/3 in the semifinals of the Master, many felt that Bjorn deserved the N°1 ranking on the basis of his Wimbledon title, his head-to-head edge over Connors (2/1) and Vilas (3/0). Afterall, Borg did win 13 of 20 tournaments and lost only one final. But that final, his narrow loss to Connors in the Master, was critical. Borg needed another major title to go along with Wimbledon. Vilas won two -the FO and the USO- and had, overall, the best record of any player. It was not enough for Borg to simply settle matters with Vilas with a victory over Guillermo at the Master. He needed a second major championship to surpass the extraordinary consistency of Vilas' year".
     
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  37. Monsieur_DeLarge

    Monsieur_DeLarge Semi-Pro

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    I think Borg ran Vilas close, but by the numbers I'd give it to the Argentine myself. However, I'm curious as to the quality of the 16 events he won. Was he "gaming the system"? How similar was it to Berasategui in 1994 ~ he won three or four tournaments in the autumn and I think only two of his opponents were inside the top 50.

    While I agree that Becker was the best player in 1989, your comment about Wilander isn't really accurate. He had a miserable year, reaching only one final (lost to Gomez), going 34-18 and dropping out of the top ten. Against Boris on indoor carpet and in front of a vociferous German crowd, it was hardly a shock result. He needed five sets to beat Steeb during the same Davis Cup final, and described that result as "a good end [to] a lousy year".[source]

    Becker comprehensively beating Edberg in straights in his other DC singles match, when Stefan was fresh off winning the Masters, was a lot more impressive IMO.


    Regards,
    MDL
     
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  38. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Are you stupid? My question is very simple: can you find a reliable source which states that most experts said Vilas was the real No. 1 in 1977?
    Wikipedia is not a reliable source http://library.williams.edu/citing/wikipedia.php
     
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  39. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Can you find a reliable source which states that most experts said Vilas was the real No. 1 in 1977?

    I have got proof that it's generally agreed that Borg was the real No. 1 in 1977:

    "But even though World Tennis magazine declared Vilas No. 1 for the year, most other authorities disagreed and bestowed that mythical honor on Borg.” The Bud Collins History of Tennis An Authoritative Encyclopedia and Record Book
     
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  40. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    It's obvious that Vilas had the best results over the whole season. That is undeniable. 1977 Borg cannot compete with 16 tournaments wins, 2 majors (plus another major final), a 53 match clay-court winning streak and a 46 match winning streak. Borg just didn't have the activity needed, nor the number of major wins.
     
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  41. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Like I said . . . .
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2012
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  42. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Can you provide a reliable source which states that most experts said Vilas was the real No. 1 ni 1977?

    It is irrelevant what non-experts think. The only opinion that matters is opinion of experts.
     
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  43. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Try looking at their 1977 match results and see the reality for yourself.
     
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  44. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    "But even though World Tennis magazine declared Vilas No. 1 for the year, most other authorities disagreed and bestowed that mythical honor on Borg.

    The Bud Collins History of Tennis An Authoritative Encyclopedia and Record Book
     
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  45. BeHappy

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    Bud Collins is full of ____.
     
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  46. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Do you always do what others tell you or find out things for yourself?
     
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  47. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

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    Bud Collins is God ?
     
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  48. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Can you find a reliable source which states that most authorites/experts said Vilas was the real No. 1 in 1977?
     
    #48
  49. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

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    Most "experts" and most people who knows tennis think that Vilas is the real number one.
     
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  50. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    As I said, look at the 1977 match results of Vilas and Borg.
     
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