It's generally agreed that Borg was the real No. 1 in 1977

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by 5555, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,738
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    I thought this was Federer.?
     
    #51
  2. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Just for new born Christians.
     
    #52
  3. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    786
    Yes. Christian Quidet in "the wonderful tennis history", and Patrice Dominguez in several books he wrote. And a lot of websites specialized about tennis. In fact, almost everyone interested in tennis think Vilas is the n°1. Because he won more Grand Slams, more tournaments and more matches than Borg.
     
    #53
  4. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    How can an issue still be open after so long?

    I think there are richer years in terms of who was nº 1, like 1970 or 1971, maybe 1976, 1989, 1990 with more slam winners ( and WCT finals and Masters, too).

    Is there anybody willing to discuss those years?
     
    #54
  5. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,112
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    1970 was clearly Laver. 1971 is tougher to judge, but I go with Newcombe. 1976 is Connors. 1989 is Becker, and 1990 is Edberg.
     
    #55
  6. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Thanks, Mustard¡¡

    My point is , and I go by records, not by peak play:

    1970:Rosewall (Laver for peak play)
    1971:Smith (Newk for peak play)
    1976:Borg (Connors for peak play)
    1989: Becker (Becker for peak play but very close with Lendl and Edberg)
    1990:Edberg (Possibly Edberg for peak play, although the way Sampras took the Open just let me stunned)
     
    #56
  7. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,395
    The way some talk about him you would think they do.:confused:
     
    #57
  8. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,697
    Location:
    London
    "But even though World Tennis magazine declared Vilas No. 1 for the year, most other authorities disagreed and bestowed that mythical honor on Borg.

    The Bud Collins History of Tennis An Authoritative Encyclopedia and Record Book

    Can you give exact quotes from their books?
     
    #58
  9. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,697
    Location:
    London
    Considering that jean pierre has not responded, it can be concluded that he lost the argument.

    It's generally agreed that Borg was the real No. 1 ni 1977.
     
    #59
  10. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,112
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    #60
  11. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    What if it was Connors?
     
    #61
  12. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,697
    Location:
    London
    "But even though World Tennis magazine declared Vilas No. 1 for the year, most other authorities disagreed and bestowed that mythical honor on Borg.

    source: The Bud Collins History of Tennis An Authoritative Encyclopedia and Record Book
     
    #62
  13. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    786
    I think Bud collins thought that Boud Collins was "the most other authorities" ! Because most authorities (Livre d'or du Tennis, Tennis de France, Eugene L. Scoot, Christian Quidet, Patrice Dominguez, Fracis Haedens, World tennis ...) declared Vilas n°1. "Experts were agree to consider Vilas as the real n°1 in 1977" (Chron'open, specialized web site). "ATP was contradicted by experts ; placed n°1 by specialized newspapers..." (Sportvox, web site).
     
    #63
  14. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,112
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    Do you have a mind of your own at all?
     
    #64
  15. Gizo

    Gizo Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,690
    The real no. 1 is always the player with the best accomplishments over that particular year. Of course sometimes that can still be highly subjective, for instance with 2003 when many people disagree over whether Roddick, Federer or Ferrero had the best year.

    However with 1977 it was clearly Vilas.

    While I still think that Connors was the third best player that year behind Vilas and Borg, I still think he had an excellent year given that he won 2 titles and reached 2 more finals at the 4 biggest tournaments he entered.

    He had a much better year than similarly questionable year end no.1 players Mac in 1982 or Sampras in 1998 (despite winning Wimbledon) I would say.
     
    #65
  16. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    I would say the real #1 was indeed Borg, but Connors also has a decent case. Vilas was not, the 3 biggest events this year by far were Wimbledon, U.S Open, and the Masters, given the laughable fields of both Australia and Paris. Borg won one and lost the finals of another. Vilas was one, and didnt make the finals of the other two, and was owned by Borg all year long. Connors made the finals of all three, and won one. In the end Borg won Player of the Year and Connors was computer year end #1. A split of the fortunes between the two best, and just about right.
     
    #66
  17. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,112
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    Are you joking? Vilas, Panatta, Gottfried, Ramirez, Solomon, Nastase, Kodes, Smith and Dibbs is not a "laughable field" for the 1977 French Open. As for Borg not being there, that was his choice. How the hell do you expect Borg to win the tournament if he has ruled himself out of it?

    The facts remain. Vilas won 2 majors in 1977, won 72 out of his 73 matches of the year, and won 16 tournaments in all. Borg and Connors don't have the results in 1977 to match this.
     
    #67
  18. Gizo

    Gizo Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,690
    Connors's 1977 has got to be one of the best seasons in the open era that a player has had without winning a major. I think it comfortably tops his own 1975, as WCT final and Masters titles easily outweigh a runner-up appearance at an Australian Open that 18 out of the top 20 players skipped. Plus from his matches during both years that I've seen, I think that his overall 1977 level was higher than his 1975 one.

    Lendl's 1982 was excellent with 15 official titles (plus 2 more unofficial ones) including the WCT finals and Masters, a US Open final appearance, and an unbeaten record against McEnroe.

    Laver was banned from defending his Australian Open and RG titles in 1970 of course and had disappointing results at Wimbledon and the US Open, but won so many big titles that year, such as Philadelphia, Sydney, Johannesburg, Toronto, Los Angeles PSW and Wembley. Many people, me included, considered that to be his 7th consecutive year as the best player in the world.

    Roche was a US Open finalist in 1969 and reached the semis of the other 3 majors that year, in addition to winning very big titles at Sydney (beating Laver in the final) and the German Open. Plus he must have won a decent total of unofficial titles that year but I cannot find a definitive list.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2012
    #68
  19. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,395
    Vilas had a fantastic year in 1977 and you also have to take into account Vilas did beat Connors in the finals of the US Open and in the Masters. I can't see Connors as number one for 1977.
     
    #69
  20. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    I just wanted to throw in a different angle when I posted Connors to be the overall most regular player at majors.I do not think he deserved nº 1 based on major records that year but he owned the very very strong WCT tour ( which only Borg,Vilas,Gottfried skipped among the best players).

    Do you know my feeling? it may seem absurd but I think that very hot year was decided by a single double fault.That of Connors at the fifth set, tenth game of the Wimbly final.I am sure that, had not he committed that DF, he would have beaten Borg at the very final edge, after one of the greatest come back in modern history..and with Wimbledon,Masters and Dallas he would have been the nº 1.It may look a bit exagerated but...it could have been very real.
     
    #70
  21. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,395
    I can see your logic but the fact remains that Borg did win the Wimbledon final. Maybe Connors would won if he didn't double fault but to be honest, since he was playing Borg I'm not so sure about that. Borg did say that he thought Connors would win if not for the double fault but Borg does say a lot of things. I think Ashe made a comment once (I think it was when Borg in 1974 won another close match) that Borg would always say he was so lucky to win. Ashe wrote something to the effect that everyone knew he was NOT lucky to win these close matches.

    And you also have to take into account Connors didn't have the best of years for him. He won 8 of 21 tournaments. A sub par Connors year in those days.
     
    #71
  22. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    But you are comparing Connors many more wins at Riordan´s tour, which had much weaker fields than 77 WCT.if you look at the WCT tour players, it is an impressive colection of talent, with Nastase,Laver ( quite old, true) and Rosewall ( the same), Stockton ( on his finest year),Dibbs,Ramirez,Solly,Okker,Gerulatis,Fibak,Panatta ( a year after his great 76), Orantes,Cox,Drysdale,Alexander...I mean, really excelent field with terrific first round opponents.Only Borg and Vilas, and maybe Gottfried missed it, although Borg and Vilas did play the Montecarlo event.

    As for Borg not being lucky, that is so true.He had been too lucky on too many times to believe in fairy tales.He was a cloutch winner, and that was his pattented trademark.But, the only time I felt he could have really lost a five setter, it was against Connors at that W final.I never had that feeling against Orantes in the 74 FO final, Lendl at the 1981,Tanner at the 1979 W final...and, after the match had reached a fifth set, I even thought he had the edge against Mac at the terrific 1980 Wimbledon final.

    On the eother hand, I also think he never had the edge agaisnt Mac at the 1980 USO final, which was very clsoe at the score...call it feelings.
     
    #72
  23. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,112
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    Seriously? Whenever I watch the match, I feel that Tanner is in control for most of it, particularly once he went 2 sets to 1 in front. Borg was also very edgy for most of the fifth set as Tanner tried to break back after going 0-2 down in that set.
     
    #73
  24. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Obviously the facts and others disagree with you as the computer (which you always normally defend even in ridiculous cases like Wozniacki in 2011) ranked Connors at #1 for every single week of the year, while the ATP named Borg its Player of the Year. So Vilas is the only one of the three who was neither officially ranked #1 nor the ATP's Player of Year choice, hmmm wonder why that is. Why did even the ATP not name Vilas their #1 if it was so obvious he was the real #1 even though the computer never once ranked him there, as you claim.

    Your insistence on grading Vilas's French Open win as some proof of red clay superiority to Borg that year even though Borg didnt play, and as the same value as if Borg had been there, is on par with the delusions of a Barker or Ruzica fan saying their French Open wins made them the best on red clay that year, over Chris Evert, and for the record Vilas's chances of ever beating Borg in a major red clay event around then are about on par of what Sue Barker beating Chris Evert in one would be, LOL!

    Lastly his record on the year was 130-14, including an 0-3 record vs Bjorn Borg. Do not try to deceive people with your 72 of 73 matches stat, which is not a reflection of his overall year in its entirety.
     
    #74
  25. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,112
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    You trust the 1970s ATP computer? I'm a human being, not a machine. As for why Vilas wasn't number 1 on the ATP computer in 1977, why don't you ask the ATP? Vilas never getting to official number 1 is one of the biggest mysteries in tennis. Vilas had the best record in the majors, won 16 tournaments in the year (including 2 majors), and had ridiculous winning streaks in the second half of the year. Borg and Connors are not near this for the year in question.

    Will you stop putting words in my mouth! Vilas played and won the biggest tournament on red clay (1977 French Open), while Borg played WTT instead. I did not say that Vilas had "red clay superiority", neither did I say anything about Evert. That's your rhetoric. The point is that you have to be in the tournament in order to win it, and Borg ruled himself out by choosing WTT. Borg doesn't get any bonus points of "oh, he would have won had he played", for that. Vilas did play, and won it in dominant fashion.

    Vilas' achievements for the year surpass Borg's. Borg had a fanastic record for 1977, but it doesn't match up to the sheer activity of Vilas. I don't know what else I can tell you.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2012
    #75
  26. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Continue shouting that all you want, but it doesnt look like you are having any luck convincing hardly anyone. As usual you are mostly on your own island on this one. :grin:
     
    #76
  27. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,112
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    I am not on my own at all.
     
    #77
  28. Gizo

    Gizo Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,690
    I do think that 1977 is one of those years in which the player that had the best achievements and the player had produced the highest standard of tennis were different.

    To me there's no doubt that Vilas had the best record, and so he was the player of the year and the real no. 1. However I think Borg produced the highest standard of tennis that year during his period of winning big titles on carpet, grass and clay. Borg's best tennis in 1977 was better than Vilas's best tennis in 1977.

    Similarly in 1999, Agassi clearly had the best achievements and thus was the deserved year end no. 1 and player of the year. However the level of tennis that Sampras produced during his 24 match winning run over the summer when he straight setted Agassi 3 times, and during the YEC, was beyond anything that Agassi produced that year. Sampras's best tennis in 1999 was better than Agassi's best tennis in 1999.

    1989 was a funny year because I do think that Becker had the best achievements and produced the best standard of tennis. He out-performed Lendl at 4 out of the 5 biggest tournaments (Roland Garros, Wimbledon, US Open and the Masters) and was the player of the year. However Lendl actually had a pretty healthy lead over Becker in the year end rankings. In fact some posters on this forum have shown that even under the ranking systems used in the 90s and 00s, Lendl would still have had a pretty clear lead over Becker points-wise, due to his excellent day-in day-out consistency that year.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2012
    #78
  29. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    786
    On your own island ?? There was a poll on this forum, and 76% said that Vilas is n°1. And theres is no doubt about that.
     
    #79
  30. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Tanner could have won but Borg was always in control
    Whereas in 77 Borg was just 1-2 points away from losing the tempo and a confident Connors...
     
    #80
  31. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Becker dominance in 89 far surpasses Vilas one in 77 since both won 2 biggies but Becker thumped Lendl twice there and Lendl was ATP 1
     
    #81
  32. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Yes TW tennis polls are a real reflection of reality and how the real World thinks. According to Planet TW Federer is the 3rd best clay courter of all time behind only Nadal and Borg after all, LOL!
     
    #82
  33. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,697
    Location:
    London
    1. Can you prove that Chron'open and Sportvox are reputable sources?
    2. Can you give links to the original text?

    Yes, I do.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2012
    #83
  34. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,112
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    Despite how good Borg's record was in 1977, Vilas won more majors, more overall tournaments, had ridiculous win streaks and more sheer activity.
     
    #84
  35. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,697
    Location:
    London
    "But even though World Tennis magazine declared Vilas No. 1 for the year, most other authorities disagreed and bestowed that mythical honor on Borg.”

    source: The Bud Collins History of Tennis An Authoritative Encyclopedia and Record Book
     
    #85
  36. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    786
    But even though Bud Collins declared Borg N°1 for the year, most other authorities disagreed and bestowed that mythical honor on Vilas.
     
    #86
  37. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,738
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    This is true. Even if the poll results are something with which I agree, I would be very skeptical.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
    #87
  38. krosero

    krosero Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    5,609
    It's true, he never did seem in control of the 80USO final. Odd thing, though, was that he should have been, in a way. He served twice for that first set. If he held either of those times the match would have unfolded very differently. But even with two chances he couldn't close out the set (got broken at love the second time), which kind of does show that he wasn't in control. Even with a technical lead he couldn't consolidate.
     
    #88
  39. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,697
    Location:
    London
    1. Can you prove that Chron'open and Sportvox are reputable sources?
    2. Can you give links to the original text?
     
    #89
  40. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    786
    1. I don't know what is a reputable source. I only know that except Bud Collins and Tennis Magazine, the big majority of experts consider that Vilas was N°1. It was written by Patrice Dominguez and Christian Quidet, but I don't have their books at home. It was written by Eugene L. Scott (is he a reputable source ?) in "Tennis Experience" : "considered as the best player of the world in 1977, Vilas ...".

    2.
    http://plazbovo.free.fr/CHRONOPEN-vilas.html

    http://www.sportvox.fr/article.php3?id_article=28700

    Thanks.
     
    #90
  41. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    ...while all of you are fixed upon Borg and Vilas, nobody gives credit to miss Wade for her great Wimbledon win, it took Murray, 35 yrs later to see a brit win another GS title...
     
    #91
  42. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,697
    Location:
    London
    http://www.ehow.com/how_5793882_reputable-websites.html

    "But even though World Tennis magazine declared Vilas No. 1 for the year, most other authorities disagreed and bestowed that mythical honor on Borg.”
    source: The Bud Collins History of Tennis An Authoritative Encyclopedia and Record Book

    Bud Collins is a tennis historian unlike your sources. In other words: he is an authority on this subject unliike your sources.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2012
    #92
  43. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,738
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    Resurrected for timely pertinence.
     
    #93
  44. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Messages:
    4,973
    No. Just no. Find another player who won over 16 titles and racked up 100 wins in a season, while having the longest winning streak in the open era. No. No. No.
     
    #94
  45. mattennis

    mattennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,228
    I find it quite curious that many posters try to evaluate former years-end rankings (like 77, 78, 82, 89 ) under, more or less, the current ranking system.

    Until 1989, it was "nº of points obtained in sanctioned tournaments" divided by "nº of those tournaments played". In short, it was the AVERAGE of points obtained per tournament played.

    Obviously it is quite different from the "total sum" (more or less, under different variations) used since 1990.

    Why don't you all try to re-evaluate every post 1990 year-end-ranking using the AVERAGE (total points divided by nº of tournaments) system? Maybe that way we would have a different Year-End-Nº1 in some years like 99, 92, 00, 02...(I have not done the maths, but probably some of those years).
     
    #95

Share This Page