Jeff Salzenstein Extension Tip

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by FrisbeeFool, Oct 25, 2012.

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  1. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    http://www.jeffsalzensteintennis.com/tennis-warm-up/

    Some great old fashioned instruction that will help you develop power and consistency on your groundstrokes. I'm pretty sure Salzenstein knows the modern game better then most of the self-proclaimed experts on these forums.

    I already know what everybody's response is going to say. The pro's don't finish out front, the racket comes around their body. They must be pulling across. This advice isn't modern. This advice will give you girly strokes. Blah blah blah.

    This is a teaching tool to learn extension and a long follow through. If you learn this way, your follow through can still finish across your body as the racquet decelerates and comes around.

    There's a great article on tennisplayer.net where Robert Lansdorp talks about teaching Pete Sampras using this technique.
     
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  2. xFullCourtTenniSx

    xFullCourtTenniSx Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, I've been feeling like extending through my forehand has been something I've been missing since I took time off for my shoulder. Then again, part of why my shoulder came out of the socket on a few groundstrokes was because I extended really far forward, so I could just be a little afraid to do it in the back of my head.
     
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  3. 3fees

    3fees Hall of Fame

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    This is not new,:shock: every Coach says it a little different, throw you racket at the ball, hit out and around, ect.. No matter what don't fully extend, leave a couple inches in on your swing arc, that way you're not taxing your tendons,ect otherwise your in the bleachers routing on someone else playing,,pass the popcorn please.
     
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  4. Roforot

    Roforot Professional

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    I guess everyone's different. I started finding the range on my FH when I focussed more on pulling the racquet across the ball. Of course I am extending through the shot as well... it's similar to a topspin serve, I'm focussed on hitting up the ball from 6 to 12 but of course the racquet has to go through it as well or I'd just have a ball pop up in the air and come back on my head.

    It depends on how you're hitting the ball and where your focus needs to be placed... For me if the contact point is slightly in front I suspect I'm getting a fair amount of extention, even I'm pulling across the ball.
     
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  5. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    very good post...those who focus too much on extension like the OP suggests,
    are left to adjust power to control shots, along with experiencing greater depth
    risks.
     
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  6. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    i don´t see a controversy between Salzensteins advice and mtm´s teaching.
    Salzensteins videos are among the best that i´ve found on youtube, consistently interesting stuff
     
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  7. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Interesting that he is quoted as having great respect for Oscar but does not seem to be an MTM coach.

    He is also a former top-100 player, so he knows how pros actually play.
     
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  8. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    That is really how the juniors are learning. They use the arc swing across the body, and learn through experience how much to extend and what racket face angle to use for different shots. That is why I strongly believe (and supported by the head coach in my club) that heavy players frames with small heads are not suitable for juniors in this phase of their training. He himself uses a Prestige 93 but will recommend only 100 head and lighter frames to his students.
     
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  9. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    When I hit out towards my target, or extend in the the direction of my target, i feel like I get greater consistency and control, because I have a predictable contact zone, or contact point every time. I think if you are focusing on manipulating the racket face, or racket face angle during contact, it's hard to hit the ball cleanly every time. For me, focusing on extending towards my target, really helped my consistency.

    On the buggy whip forehand, i feel like i'm manipulating the facket face a lot more at the very last second while I make contact. I usually use that shot to compensate for being late, or too hit extreme angles.

    There's a great article on tennisplayer.net where Nick Boletieri talks about having a long follow through and a predictable contact zone. I'm pretty sure most coaches are in agreement on this issue. Yes players finish around their body, but that is after the extension phase of the stroke.

    Maybe, a lot of people naturally get that great extension out towards their target on groundstrokes. For those of us that don't, it helps to have a teacher explain it.

    I know at my club, a lot of the 3.5 guys that aren't progressing don't have good extension outwards in their groundstrokes. They imitate the low to high action they see on tv, which is fine. But the part they're missing during the middle phase of the stroke is extension outwards, and solid contact. Having a predictable contact zone on rally balls. It's a big problem for a lot of juniors too. They hit short spinny balls that sit up. they're not getting that horizontal pace through the court because they don't have enough extension.

    If you're making clean contact every time and getting the good extension out through the contact zone, you get a lot of effortless pace, and the stroke has that solid booming sound of clean contact.

    Ever since I've used this tip I've had a lot of people tell me how much my groundstrokes have improved. I know a lot of local coaches that use this tip. I saw a high performance coach at my club using it the other day. Online, I've seen Salzenstein, Rick Macci, Nick Boletieri, Robert Lansdorp, all advocate this tip, each with their own slightly different wording. I think it's a really simple solid tip that can help a lot of players. If the self-proclaimed arbiters of what is and isn't modern tennis on this forum don't like it: too bad. Clearly a lot of real modern coaches are using this.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
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  10. sundaypunch

    sundaypunch Hall of Fame

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    Bingo! We have a winner. This is exactly why the modern game has evolved away from it as an overriding thought.

    Everyone should take note that the Jeff S. video recommends this as a warm-up drill. My take is that the recommendation is to add a "pinch of salt" not a pound of it.
     
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  11. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    No problem with helping someone get more into or thru the ball if they are the
    rare player who does not get that aspect of the stroke. If that helped you, then
    great, but what I see with most students is too much focus on extension, leading
    them to hit long. To combat this, they tend to bunt and not finish their strokes.

    There are lots of ways to do it poorly and the window for excellence is much
    smaller. To be excellent, a player will usually need a full, strong stroke without
    having to modulate power to keep the ball in. Understanding that you don't
    extend further down the target line after contact is critical to play your best.
    Many players do it naturally from hitting lots of balls as jrs, but they often go
    off too...imo due to not understanding what they are doing and being more
    dependent on feel. If I start to launch a few long...I realize right away that
    I'm getting too much into the ball down the target line and not working across
    the target line enough...making it easy to correct vs having a long frustrating
    outing.

    I'm glad the extension drills worked for you and as your shot gets stronger and
    more dependable, you will progress to understanding how you need to avoid
    driving directly down the target line past contact. No one has a problem with
    the racket following thru in a general forward direction across the target line
    and No one thinks you should try for tangential contact imo.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
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  12. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, thanks.
    Strong hitters quickly get to a point where the window above the net is so
    small that there is a strong tendency to hit long or in the net, if they drive
    out down the target line after contact.
     
    #12
  13. KayFactor

    KayFactor Rookie

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    delete post
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
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  14. KayFactor

    KayFactor Rookie

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    Teaching pro Yvonne Gallop of California really emphasizes this too.
     
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  15. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    This likely true, as she is as old school as they come in teaching approach.
    If you want to play traditional, by all means, use this approach.
    Everyone should have a choice.
     
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  16. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    5263, serious question here....

    Do you believe Robert Lansdorp is traditional?
     
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  17. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    RL tended towards traditional stroke technique, but allowed some very important
    adjustments like Sampras' lasso Fh.
    He very flatly stated that the more aggressive grips like Rafa and DJ were not
    suited to win major titles.

    I have little idea what he IS now, but he seems to be trying to adjust for the
    mistakes about grips and the academy ball with revised thoughts and adding
    new finishes. I guess this shows examples of moving more modern?
     
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  18. Lovingit007

    Lovingit007 New User

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    I think RL is of "Observe-Learn-Adapt" category.
    any other system or technique or method maybe "Observe-Preach" category, basically big volume of followers.. but both works
     
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  19. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    really? any other system??
    And what is the difference between your "observe and adapt" and your "observe &
    preach"? There is no doubt that RL has done his share of Preaching.
    Is he the one you mention has a big volume of followers? as he probably has
    more than most coaches.
     
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  20. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    You're not making a lot of sense to me. The point of the drill, is to teach the student a long follow-through out towards their target. And you're saying with this method you see students who have short bunted follow-throughs??

    Then you talk about your own game and how when you're hitting long, you limit your extension and stop hitting through the ball as much?? Isn't pushing what you're describing here? Any experienced player can add margin for error to their strokes by getting under the ball more and going more low to high, or as you like to call it across the target line. But they're still also hitting through the ball. If you stop hitting through the ball because of unforced errors that's a recipe for disaster. It will only result in inconsistent contact and more unforced errors and will result in the short bunted strokes you say you don't like to see.

    If I'm trying to hit a sharp angled cross-court roller, or maybe a buggy-whip passing shot, or some finesse shot like that, I won't hit through the ball as much. But on a conventional rally ball, I hit though all of those. When I first start warming up, like in this drill, I'm just driving rally balls back towards my hitting partner. After hitting for a few minutes and getting warm, then is the time to start doing more point play type of stuff and hitting more finesses shots. Obviously a player should be able to hit all the shots. This drill is practicing one type of shot, and it is practicing one aspect of that stroke, the extension outward.

    What's your deal? Why can't you just admit a lot of good coaches think this is an important part of the stroke. Watch the video again. He says he learned the drill from Robert Lansdorp, who you seem to have a problem with too. Maybe after you've developed multiple grand slam champions, you can start critiquing these methods.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
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  21. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    That is because he has actual results in coaching.
     
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  22. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I said that it can eventually lead there without learning to work across contact properly.
    Players who attempt to work past contact down the target line will go thru a
    series of progressions.

    My quote- too much focus on extension, leading
    them to hit long. To combat this, they tend to bunt and not finish their strokes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
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  23. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    A lot of coaches are adapting their style of teaching as the game evolves. Check out the guy in this video teaching the finish in the 90's. You may have heard of him. He's Oscar Wegner.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJmgr2-kCVA
     
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  24. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    All coaches should adapt of course, but what are you suggesting Oscar has
    adapted here? The things he shows in that vid are still the basics of the basic
    rally shot. Are you confusing the WW and the Bolo/Lasso finishes with the basic rally shot?
     
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  25. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    How would you teach a student to hit a one-handed backhand. I'm curious. All the coaches I've seen teach the stroke focus on extending the front arm, using the back arm for balance and hitting through the ball.

    Let's both post videos of our one-handed backhands and see whose is better.
     
    #25
  26. Lovingit007

    Lovingit007 New User

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    What i am really saying is RL - observed his students play, learnt from them because HIS STUDENTS WENT ON TO WIN GRANDSLAMS, and Adapted his teachings so future generations can benefit.

    Now any system or method someone develops is basically Observe the CHAMPIONS that coaches like RL or Tony or Peter Carter and many more develop and preach as if it is their own invented system and take credit for it.

    But the reality is NO SYSTEM or NO METHOD has produced true champions. It is the hard work of the individual coaches and the students/players that have produced champions.
     
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  27. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    Wow. great post. You summed it up perfectly.
     
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  28. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Really? I don't think I implied that, but you jumped to a false conclusion and
    have to resort to insults to bolster your misinfo.

    I stated...

     
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  29. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree, well said. Thanks for clearing that up for these who are constantly
    "Preaching" about how Nick, RL, and Macci's methods produced champions while
    saying others have not done the same.
    Yes...well said.
     
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  30. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    His comments below the video says "most of the pros." It also seems clear that he was focusing on the most common finish, and certainly not saying that there is no other finish. He was saying that the finish should be consistent, and the time allocated for the video was too small to be exhaustive. If you take it literally, you should also argue that he is teaching the same finish for a forehand volley, since it is also a forehand.

    There are other problems with the video - the short backswing and casual tapping of the ball shown in the video will result in a high and weak ball with very little spin, but that is another issue. Hopefully it is supposed to be an illustration for beginners only.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2013
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  31. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    5263. Sign up for tennisplayer.net Read the article written by Robert Lansdorp where he talks about how coaches teach the finishes, how he teaches the finishes, and how coaching has evolved, as new playing styles have evolved. I think it might clear up a lot of your misconceptions about how modern tennis came to be.

    I don't care if you think these tips are traditional. They developed a lot of high level players and grand slam champions.

    Who are the high level players you have developed with your expert coaching 5263???????
     
    #31
  32. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    You can't make up your mind about what is responsible for developing players can you?
     
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  33. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I don't think you even have to sign up for that one. I seen it so many times
    that I can visualize many of the vids that go with it.
    What it explains is how he gave Pete a hard time about the bolo finish, which
    I guess he'd never heard of before, since he decided to name it something else.
    He gave in and let Pete use it because it worked so well...just like he did with
    Pete's serve. Without those 2 shots, Pete likely has 0 majors.

    I agree, good coaching not to mess with a students play who is more advanced
    than your technique.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
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  34. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    :) lol, you just got thru telling us how great that post was about who develops
    players...
    You can't make up your mind about what is responsible for developing players can you?
     
    #34
  35. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I think Frisfool needed to read this one again.
     
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  36. Lovingit007

    Lovingit007 New User

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    what you said above is not exactly what is said.

    RL, Nick, Macci - they have truly produced champions, while they developed champions they did not call it a system or method. so they are not preachers.

    others who watched the developed champions started "preaching" systems.
     
    #36
  37. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Those guys did what they had to do to get results. They did not find it necessary to brand it as some profound methodology and issue pieces of paper as certificates, and go around talking badly of others as a marketing ploy.
     
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