Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by nfor304, May 12, 2009.
Article on John Newcombes top 10 written in 1980...
Interesting read. Newcombe feels quite the same about Laver's ability to change tactics in his newer book On and off the court, from 2003. Newcombe had played all the players here mentioned. He rates Santana obviously higher than Gimeno, probably because as an amateur until 1967, he never played Gimeno at his peak. His high regard of Emerson should tell some people here, that Emmo was no fluke. Also he groups Gonzales and Connors together, which maybe refers to their teacher-pupil-relationship.
I'm sorry but that is a joke?? From what many have said if were talking about one's highest level, then where the hell is Lew Hoad?? IS Newcombe really gonna tell me Ashe, Vilas, Nastase, Emmerson, Santana and Connors pinnacle is higher than Hoad???
And Gonzales #4 with Rosewall #3. Put then head to head on every surface, and I go with Pancho. Sorry but some of what he said is laughable. And ow Pancho Gonzales is not contending for the top spot is beyond me.
Seems he selected and ranked them based on his experience playing against them.
Hoad had retired, Gonzales was past his prime....etc.
Newcombe expressly states, " It's a different situation for me to pick the best 10 I have played against during my 20 years on the international circuit."
Did you not read that part before deciding to get agitated?
I do think Newcombe was expecting people to actually read and understand the article before they either agreed or disagreed with him.
Put Pancho on clay and, against Rosewall, he couldn't break eggs. Actually, take Pancho off the fast grass or, especially, ultra fast indoor courts (with their irregular bounces) he built his reputation on and you'll get a much better impression of the two players.
I understand where he's coing from that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Like someone said the time frame he's basing it on, Hoad had retired and Pancho was past his prime. It's not an accurate assesment to campare even his own personal abilites to playing Laver, Ashe in their prime to a Pancho past his.
If Sampras compared Agassi and Connors "solely based on his experiences playing against them" it would mean damn near nothing. As he got Agassi in his prime and Connors when Jimmy was what?? 35+??
GRASS - Pancho
HARD - Panhco
CARPET - Pancho
CLAY - Rosewall
If we throw in wood, guess who gets that?? The defense rests. Nothing against Rosewall, as I didn't diminish him, but I believe at their respective best Pancho is better.
rosewall vs gonzales
remember the 6 year age diference
gonzales was a his peak 1954-61
the ovreall head to head year by year in proper matches is
1957 52 28 (ginzales played rosewall on his best surface fast indoor conditions in the us)
1958 5 2
1959 2 3 according to maccauley
1960 14 3 again fast indoor us conditions (2 matches unknown on 1960 us tour)
1961 2 2 but rosewall won only best of five set pfrench pro final to become world number 1
1964 3 11 rosewall at last got gonzales on clay in italy and beat him 6-0; rosewall also beat gonzaeles in 5 set semi in french pro on wood
1965 7 3 gonzales again won on fast indoor in us, but rosewall won at us pro best of five on grass
1966 2 3
1967 2 2
1968 3 6
1969 3 3
1970 0 2
overall this leads to an edge of 95-68 for gonzales but its all based really on playing at his peak againatvaelow peak risewall on the 1957 world tour in gonzaeles favoured surface. On any sirfcae except the faast indoor conditions of those world tours , i rate rosewalll the better player. Outdoors rosewall would be favourite on grass, hard courts and clay.
It's a reasonable list considering these are the players Newk played. He did play Emerson when Emmo was at his peak and all the others were reasonable.
I think Rosewall's longevity must be factored in also. For as long as Pancho was very, very good, Rosewall's record at the top of the game was even longer.
No Sampras anywhere to be found. Interesting. Yet he has Emerson on that list? LOL. Laughable
There's an extremely simple reason for Newcombe omitting your favorite player-namesake. Your idolatry has impeded your reasoning.
"When I am asked to select the top 100 competitors in the history of tennis I find the task simply impossible. Simply because some of the games greats were born and finished their careers before I even started to get a grip on a racquet handle.
It's a different situation for me to pick the best 10 I have played against during my 20 years on the international circuit."
Maybe Newk played against Emerson and did not play against Sampras.? Whaddya think?
Also, the OP states that the list was written in 1980, when I believe Sampras was 9 years old.
Wasn't his list written in 1980?
How could Sampras make the GOAT list in 1980?! :? That's 8 years before he was on tour.
I think he was being what you people call a troll
Ahhh.. Well then revise it.. Its a joke of a list anyways
Yeah that doesnt make sense at all.
yeah didnt read that part, sorry
Takes one to know one.
Well you would obviously know better than Newcombe, who actually played against these players wouldn't you:-?
Why is it that everyone thinks Roy Emerson was a bum among GOATs? Wasn't he the most successful player? (Not best, but successful.)
Dominated the amateur tour, making his status among the greats extremely ambiguous.
CyB is correct: Emmo dominated at the slams when the field was fairly weak because the world's best players were pros, and thus banned from slam competition.
He was no bum or slouch, but not a GOAT-contender either.
Head to heads versus some top players from the ITF website. Emerson beat Laver more than once and these results are not all the matches these players played.
Versus Rod Laver
1968 Buenos Aires FR Clay (O) R.EMERSON 9-7 6-4 6-4
1969 Australian Open 16 Grass (O) R.LAVER 2-6 4-6 6-3 7-9
1969 Miami QF R.LAVER 7-5 3-6 4-6
1969 U.S. Open QF Grass (O) R.LAVER 6-4 6-8 11-13 4-6
1970 WCT Las Vegas SF R.LAVER 3-6 6-3 2-6 6-3 3-6
1970 WCT St Louis SF R.LAVER 6-4 5-7 3-6
1970 WCT Fort Worth FR R.LAVER 3-6 5-7
1970 WCT Vancouver FR R.LAVER 2-6 1-6 2-6
1971 WCT Miami SF R.LAVER 6-2 3-6 5-7
1971 WCT Quebec QF R.LAVER 6-3 6-7 6-7
1971 WCT Fort Worth SF R.LAVER 1-6 4-6
1971 GP/WCT San Francisco 16 R.LAVER 7-6 4-6 0-6
1973 WCT Miami QF R.LAVER 6-1 3-6 6-7
1973 WCT Richmond FR R.LAVER 4-6 3-6
1973 WCT Toronto FR R.LAVER 3-6 4-6
1973 WCT Brussels SF R.LAVER 6-4 4-6 1-6
1973 WCT Finals QF R.LAVER 5-7 2-6 5-7
Rod LAVER (AUS) Leads Roy EMERSON (AUS) : 16 to 1 *
Versus Ken ROSEWALL (AUS)
Year Tournament Round Surface Winner Score
1969 Sydney QF Grass (O) K.ROSEWALL 16-18 6-3 1-6 2-6
1969 Los Angeles QF R.EMERSON 6-3 2-6 6-3
1969 Bristol SF Grass (O) K.ROSEWALL 5-7 4-6
1969 Cologne Cup SF R.EMERSON 5-7 9-7 6-2
1970 WCT Dallas SF R.EMERSON 8-6 8-6
1970 GP/WCT Louisville QF Clay (O) K.ROSEWALL 4-6 1-6
1971 Australian Open QF Grass (O) K.ROSEWALL 4-6 4-6 3-6
1971 WCT Vancouver SF K.ROSEWALL 4-6 1-6
1972 WCT Denver 16 R.EMERSON 7-6 6-7 6-4
Ken ROSEWALL (AUS) Leads Roy EMERSON (AUS) : 5 to 4 *
Versus Andres GIMENO (ESP)
Year Tournament Round Surface Winner Score
1968 Buenos Aires SF Clay (O) R.EMERSON 1-6 6-4 8-10 6-4 6-4
1969 Cologne Cup FR A.GIMENO 3-6 17-19
1970 Sydney QF A.GIMENO 3-6 6-3 6-4 2-6 3-6
1970 WCT Dallas FR A.GIMENO 2-6 3-6 2-6
1970 WCT Vancouver SF R.EMERSON 6-3 6-3
1971 WCT Chicago 16 A.GIMENO 6-1 3-6 6-7
1971 WCT Quebec 16 R.EMERSON 7-6 7-6
1971 Canadian Open 16 A.GIMENO 1-6 5-7
Andres GIMENO (ESP) Leads Roy EMERSON (AUS) : 5 to 3 *
Versus Pancho GONZALES (USA)
Year Tournament Round Surface Winner Score
1968 French Open QF Clay (O) P.GONZALES 5-7 3-6 6-3 6-4 4-6
1970 WCT Fort Worth QF R.EMERSON 7-9 6-1 6-1
Roy EMERSON (AUS) is tied with Pancho GONZALES (USA) : 1 to 1 *
Now Laver was two years younger than Emerson and I think Gimeno is one year younger but Rosewall and Gonzalez were respectively two and eight years older than Emerson.
I'm of the opinion that Gimeno, over the course of his career was a superior player to Emerson but his career was that of a third wheel often to Laver and Rosewall, despite the fact he may have been the third best player in the world in the mid to late 1960's. He defeated Laver and Rosewall a number of times in the same tournament to win titles.
I've also read that Gonzalez and Emerson played numerous times over the years and that Emerson rarely defeated Gonzalez. However the ITF website says it's tied.
Separate names with a comma.