Johnny Mac - The Definitive GOAT

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by OTMPut, Feb 27, 2013.

  1. OTMPut

    OTMPut Hall of Fame

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    • played with both wood and graphite racquets
    • also won doubles and mixed doubles GS titles
    • played best of 5 sets
    • played on vastly different surfaces

    He had coke, beer and burgers and lived a normal life. Unlike chumps today who lead unreal lives surrounded by a team of caretakers and play on similar surfaces and have no credentials in doubles/mixed doubles.
     
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  2. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Obvious GOAT, in my opinion. These newtard players will never get their afternoons of drinking great beer back. All wasted on excessive training and healthy meals and drink.
     
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  3. Goosehead

    Goosehead Hall of Fame

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    alot of tourneys in mcenroes day were best of 3 sets just like now.
     
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  4. DolgoSantoro

    DolgoSantoro Professional

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    One could make a case based largely on peak level of play and his doubles successes, but his GOATness isn't definitive.
     
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  5. OTMPut

    OTMPut Hall of Fame

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    Definitely a stronger case compared to Rafael, Petros and Roger.
     
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  6. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Don't forget his Davis Cup career. He always made it a priority.
     
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  7. OTMPut

    OTMPut Hall of Fame

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    +1
    10 macs.
     
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  8. helloworld

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    Definitely not definitive.
     
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  9. OTMPut

    OTMPut Hall of Fame

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    why not? none of the contemporary GOAT candidates have even 1 GS doubles title.
     
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  10. Indio

    Indio Rookie

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    McEnroe had arguably the best overall year in men's tennis in 1984, going 82-3, and winning 14 of the 16 tournaments he entered (with the third loss coming in Davis Cup).
    In 1981-82, McEnroe took a s***kicking from Lendl, going 0-7, but in 1983-84, he completely reversed the trend, with a 10-2 record. One seldom sees such a reversal when a newer player has achieved dominance over an established one.
     
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  11. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    True and very true
     
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  12. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Good post but as your signature goes, çrather an exception
     
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  13. MesQueUnClub

    MesQueUnClub Rookie

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    The giant dou*hebags that him and Conners are will never bring them into the GOAT conversation. I for one hated the 2 of them. I will admit that McEnroe's 1984 was a special achievement.
     
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  14. Xavier G

    Xavier G Semi-Pro

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    John had the skill set of a Greatest Of All Time. The best player over the 1979-85 timeframe.
    He had an amazing career- singles, doubles and Davis Cup. If you take everything into account, not just his 7 Grand Slam singles titles, but his 3 Masters titles, 5 WCT titles, doubles, and 5 Davis Cup crowns, he's one of the best ever. He kept doubles at the forefront of the game and projected the profile of the Davis Cup when other players weren't playing it.
    I think he has over 150 tournament wins in singles and doubles play.

    He's still a great player for his age today as well. Crowds pay to see Mac. Entertainer.
     
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  15. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I can only think of Hoad,Cochet,Sedgman,Rosewall,Emmo and of course Newk with a comparable sin&doub record
     
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  16. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Of course you forgot your No.1 player, a certain R.L....
     
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  17. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Next week's big thread....William Renshaw, rightful Wimbledon GOAT. OG respect!

    Seriously though, Johny Mac is alright!!!! Legend
     
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  18. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Duke Gerold was said to have a jolly good footwork in the 16th century. He is the true goat.
     
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  19. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    JMac is a Tier 2 great.
     
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  20. Xavier G

    Xavier G Semi-Pro

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    Some great names there, kiki. Would like to have seen Hoad, Cochet, Sedgman in their prime. Rosewall won many doubles titles too, fantastic career and Davis Cup.
     
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  21. Onehandedbackhand

    Onehandedbackhand Professional

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    Loved Johnny Mac, but this is garbage spewed by people who just want to make excuses for why they are so out of shape.
     
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  22. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    No, I don´t think Laver´s doubs careers is that impressive, although he could be great, specially with his fellow Roy Emerson.
     
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  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Newk was exceptionally good at either singles and doubles.Doubles is an aussie sport. 8 of the 10 best ever came from auss: Sedgman,Browmich,Quist,Hoad,Rosewall,Newcombe,Emerson,Hewitt and Stolle.Then you have Mc Enroe and Mc Millan, as well as Cochet and Jarryd...
     
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  24. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    .. and Roche,Mc Gregor, the Woodies, Fitzgerald and Fraser.it is just completely amazing.
     
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  25. niktub

    niktub Semi-Pro

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    1 Laver 2 McEnroe 3 RF
     
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  26. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Are you aware that Laver won about 140 doubles tournaments? This number means probably place three in the all-time list behind Emerson (172) and Hewitt (163).

    I saw the 1971 Wimbledon final between Emerson/Laver and Ashe/Ralston. A great and thrilling match of five sets. Laver played excellently...
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2013
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  27. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Xavier G, Yes, Hoad/Rosewall won 15 majors. Rosewall won at least 120 doubles tournaments.
     
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  28. OTMPut

    OTMPut Hall of Fame

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    Learn to make a decent conversation, would you?


    Show me one chump today with one GS doubles title and one GS singles title.
    Fed comes close with an olympic title. Rafa has a couple smaller titles.

    GOAT (Greatest of all time; say it couple of times slowly and heavily so that the implication of that phrase hits your brain) is reserved for geniuses; fine tennis minds that would thrive in different conditions, surfaces, formats.

    Roger exhibited some of the abilities to adjust - he moved from all gut era to poly era relatively easy; he moved from a s&v attacking player to a more all court style with great defense.
    Still quite one-dimensional though. No GS doubles titles. No mixed doubles titles.
     
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  29. Onehandedbackhand

    Onehandedbackhand Professional

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    I absolutely loved Johnny Mac, I already told you. I am also not going to use the stupid beers and burgers and regular guy crap.

    Different game, different world, different equipment. Ivan Lendl and Martina Navratilova ended that by destroying everyone after they got in prime shape. Now to be the very best, you need to be in prime shape. Even Mac knows this now on the Seniors tour of all places.
     
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  30. big ted

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    i think he won the right gs tournaments too, i think the usopen and wimbledon are better than winning an australian or french imo... that said dont think hes the greatest of all time, maybe not even most talented (with federer around)..
     
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  31. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Onehanded and brains can' t go in same sentence
    Nice attempt tough
     
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  32. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    His Davis Cup career was fairly great.
     
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  33. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    "I resemble that remark."

    (With thanks to Groucho Marx)
     
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  34. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes, and he was a very good doubs player as I stated.it is just that his doubles version was, say, more average ( excelent yet) than his singles version...or said in other words, there is a wider gap between Laver singles and in Laver doubles than there is between Newcombe or Mac singles and Newk or Mac doubles version.My two cents.
     
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  35. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    One thing is for sure: Mac was the king of Dallas, since he won 5 WCT championships ( beat Borg,Connors,Lendl...) while reaching 2 more finals.In fact, his last great win was the 89 Finals.

    That more than doubles the other guys that won this event more than once (Lendl,Connors,Rosewall).and the WCT list of champions is one of the best " who´s who" of modern tennis.Bar Wilander and Laver, all the greats from 1971 till 1989 have won this event (Laver himself lost the two first finals against Rosewall)
     
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  36. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Let's all crather an exception.








    Whatever that means?
     
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  37. Goosehead

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    McEnroe and his beer n burger n 'yayo' n partying lifestyle that caught up with him (as well as the tatum o neal effect) is precisely the reason why he is not a potential goat..

    lets face it, up to the end of 1985 he had won 7 majors and been in 4 others, won 19 masters titles, 3 wtf, and some wct titles, then he got married had a baby in 1986, so that and the lack of training and his 'average bloke' lifestyle' took its toll..

    meanwhile superfit lendl was improving..becker too, plus others and when he came back after an 8 months in 1986 and a 6 m0nth break in 1987 he couldn't get back to the top..also he used to play doubles with fleming instead of training but he did not play much doubles when he came back..

    from aug 1986 to end of 1992 he won 0 majors, and was in 0 finals; won 0 masters, and was in 1 final; only reached wtf once lost in sf; won 1989 wct final..

    so his lifestyle cost him, a potential goat career was stalled and it was all his fault, as much as I was a fan of mac when I was small, that's the reality of it.
     
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  38. Gizo

    Gizo Hall of Fame

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    I'm guessing that most people here would rank Mac below both Connors and Lendl. However I've always thought that there is a case to argue that he's just as great, if not slightly greater, than both of them, even ignoring his doubles accomplishments and just focusing on singles. If I was a professional player and could choose the singles achievements and career of one of those guys, I would choose Mac's.

    For all 3 of those guys, Wimbledon and the US Open were the two majors that mattered the most. Obviously that is the case with the vast majority of US players. Plus Lendl worked hard to become a US citizen and clearly valued the US Open above RG judging from a lot of his comments. He also developed an obsession with Wimbledon to the extent where he said he would trade in all 3 of his RG titles for 1 Wimbledon title.

    Mac is the only one of those 3 players who dominated both Wimbledon (3 titles in 4 years) and the US Open (3 titles in a row and 4 titles in 6 years). Connors and Lendl obviously both dominated the US Open, but Connors didn't quite dominate Wimbledon (he never defended a title there with his 2 triumphs 8 years apart) and Lendl didn't win the tournament, the superbowl and holy grail of tennis, at all. Give me 3 titles at WIM and 4 at the USO over 2 at WIM and 5 at the USO, or 0 at WIM and 3 at the USO.

    Maybe Mac's US Open record is even slightly underrated considering like Lendl he won 3 titles in a row there (plus an additional 4th title), and had at least 2 wins over each of his 3 main rivals there; Connors (3 wins from 4 matches), Borg and Lendl. His 1980 title run where he beat all 3 of them in succession was incredible.

    Really who cares that much about Connors's extra Australian Open title from the 70s. Mac has 3 additional Dallas titles and 2 additional Masters titles over him. Plus Connors was never on the winning team in a Davis Cup final, though he officially counts as a 1981 champion despite his minimal contribution that year, only playing in the QF tie. Mac was on the winning team 5 times, and I think his Davis Cup legacy easily outweighs Connors's additional success in smaller tournaments on the circuit. Plus Mac has the overall edge in the biggest non slam events I would say.

    All 3 players had 3 years as the best in the world. However Mac's 1984 was greater and continues to be more revered than any season that Connors (even his great 1974) or Lendl ever had. Plus he played in the 1980 Wimbledon final, which is one of the most famous tennis matches in history.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2013
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  39. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes my honourable professor
     
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  40. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Mac DC record makes the difference
    His 1980. US Open run remains unmatched in modern tennis
    Beating one after the other his 3 great rivals, all of them all time legends and winning the fufth set the way he did against Borg...it is one of the greatest achievements. In ant sport
    That may be. even more astonishing than his unique 1984
     
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  41. Volley123

    Volley123 New User

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    Todays game is so physical. that IMO players cannot be expected to play doubles and singles and therefore that is a unfair knock. Martina and Mac had a unreal 1984, but while she remained dominant, until the late 80's, Mac for all his skills, could not adapt to the power game of Lendl. Sorry but to be in the league of his contemporaries he needed be to the dominant player for significantly longer. Talent alone does not put you in GOAT category.
     
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  42. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    TMF is right: Tier 2.
     
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  43. Gizo

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    Agreed.

    In 4 consecutive days, Mac beat Lendl in 4 sets in his QF, played in a 5 set doubles final, won his SF against Connors in 5 sets and then beat Borg in the final in 5 sets.

    The 1980 US Open final is easily one of the most 'hyped' and eagerly anticipated matches of all time, given how their Wimbledon final a couple of months earlier and their rivalry in general was capturing the imagination of sports fans across the world. Plus Borg was trying to complete the 3rd leg of the grand slam, and Mac was trying to defend his title. The match comfortably lived up to all the hype and probably even exceeded it in my opinion.

    Borg hadn't lost a 5 set match in over 4 years since Nastase beat him at Hawaii in early 1976. He had a 25-4 career W/L record in 5 set matches with 13 straight victories. Most people thought that he had the match won when he took the 4th set and forced a decider, so Mac did amazingly well to finish him off.

    A lot of people don't talk about Mac's US Open record as much as Connors's or Lendl's. I do think that Connors is the open era US Open king (to reach 12 straight semi-finals there from 1974-1985 was amazing). However I think overall Mac beat slightly better players to win his US Open titles than Lendl did, not to mention the fact that he won one more title there.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2013
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  44. Goosehead

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    mac beating lendl in 1980 wasn't a big deal, it was expected.
     
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  45. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    Potentially.. If we want to judge his career up to 1984. After that though... Ehhh

    Considering he went through 40 divorces had all these personal problems its amazing he accomplished what he did.
     
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  46. Gizo

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    Lendl obviously wasn't in his prime yet in 1980, but he was still a difficult QF opponent at the time and was the 10th seed, and had made big waves in the tennis world that year. Plus he went on absolute tear at the end of 1980, racking up a lot of titles on clay, hard and carpet (including beating Borg in 5 sets in the Basel final), winning the Davis Cup with Czechoslovakia and reaching the Masters final against Borg at MSG.

    Those last 4 days that Mac at the tournament were pretty gruelling and he came through it incredibly well.
     
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  47. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    By the time he faced Mac at the USO, Lendl was already the fourth best player in the world.He was starting his prime years, although he was not the very same player he became in 1985, that I agree.

    He owned Mac all through 1981.
     
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  48. Goosehead

    Goosehead Hall of Fame

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    HE did I suppose..macenroee vv lemdl h2h was a bit strange, it was either mac dominating lendl, or lendl dominating mac, all through their careers.
     
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  49. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Mac took their first two pro encounters in 1980 ( they had played a few more as juniors which Mac won ), then in 1981-1982 it´s completley LENDL ( except the two exos John won) and from 1983-1984 it´s all Mac ( except the San Francisco tournament and, of course, Roland Garros).1985 is pretty even, but Mac still hold the edge ( until the USO)..and from 1987 onwards, Mac was clearly below his prime and it´s again Lendl dominating at will ( except the 1989 WCT finals)

    For years, Mac dominates 1980,1983,1984,1985
    Lendl dominates 1981,1982,1987,1988,1989

    I don´t think they played each other after 1989.Clearly, both would have been in their downhill.
     
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  50. Gizo

    Gizo Hall of Fame

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    That US Open QF was the last time that Mac would beat Lendl in an official match until February 1983 at Philadelphia (after he had taken advice from Don Budge). He lost all 7 matches they played in 1981-1982. Even in Davis Cup where Mac was king, Lendl beat him in straights in the opening rubber of their QF tie in New York in 1981.

    They played out all time classic matches at Dallas in 1983 and RG in 1984. It's just a huge shame that their matches in New York at the US Open and Masters weren't more competitive. 4 out of their 5 matches at the US Open ended in straight set victories one way or another, as did all 5 of their matches at the Masters. Throw in that 1981 Davis Cup rubber, their 2 finals at Forest Hills in 1984 and 1985, and their match at Long Island in 1991, and they played 14 times in total in New York with 13 straight set victories.
     
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