JonnySV Serves!!! (Finally...)

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Jonny S&V, Jan 8, 2009.

  1. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Last edited: Jan 8, 2009
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  2. kobe3pointer

    kobe3pointer Semi-Pro

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    really nice serve, but you seem to be leening in alot to the left sometimes.. kick serve?
     
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  3. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    You have the quickest service action I've ever seen. It's almost hard to analyze your serve because it happens so quickly. You seem to toss the ball Taylor Dent style with a bent arm. Can you really toss the ball consistently with that toss?
     
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  4. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    IDK what you'd call it, I swing at it flat for the most part but it does like to kick up a little. There's the second question, what would you call my "1st" serve?
     
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  5. beckham

    beckham Semi-Pro

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  6. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    I get everything done, and I get it done fast. :twisted:

    But really, it was the only thing that felt comfortable to me (tried slowing it down, but never really got a good rhythm for it...).
     
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  7. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for the vid, I see what you mean but for some reason thats only on the deuce-court (I think, I'll have the ad-court video up soon... ARGH!!! Youtube is such a nice commodity while being utterly and fully FRUSTRATING!!!). I extend a lot better on the ad-court (especially on flatish serves).
     
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  8. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

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    From where you are standing, it looks like you are most comfortable and accurate serving to the deep forehand corner.

    However, I did not see any wide slice that lands a few feet up from the back service line. Is there a reason for that?

    Just from those serves alone, and I could be wrong, but I would cheat over to the forehand if I were returning your serves on the deuce side because not one of your serve was near the T. You stood over, away from the midline so even if you had hit the center T, it would have move towards the returner. So, do you have a kicker that you can place on the T from where you stand that would break away from the returner? If you can, this would force me to not cheat over.

    Seems to me you toss the ball behind you, if this is true, hard to be sure with the camera angle, but I would expect a heavy kicker. I didn't see that, so is there a physical reason why you toss the ball behind you?

    You seen to be blessed with a very pliable body, made for the fast release. Very envious of that. Seems like you have the potential of having a very fast racquet speed on your serve which means if struck properly, it could have all sorts of nastiness to it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2009
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  9. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    Great serves! I would have liked to see some kickers (i dont think they were any) but still very nice serves. I have no idea how you serve with such a quick motion and a low toss like that, but obviously it works. Would love to give advice and all, but your serve owns mine so I don't think I'm qualified to help lol.

    Impressive, all i got to say:)
     
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  10. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    The truth is that I can't hit a decent slice serve to save my life... :(

    I can hit my serves anywhere on the deuce court, that one just felt more comfortable to me. I can and do twist up the middle quite often, surprised I didn't hit any to speak of in the vid... :confused:

    I hit kicks and twists 80% of the time in matches, so my toss is behind my head quite often (especially on the deuce court).

    I'm pretty flexible (can do the splits and am keeping my back particularly flexible). The downside to me is I don't get to practice much in the winter, so my serve is sorta up and down right now...
     
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  11. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Lol, thanks. I like it because the wind doesn't affect my toss (which is bad enough as it is consistency wise...). It gets my momentum going forward so I can hit some first volleys inside the service line regularly. Yeah, I guess I didn't feel like hitting kickers that day... Once I get the ad-court vid up, it has a lot of twists and kickers out wide (and you get to see my insane backbend... :-?).
     
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  12. RestockingTues

    RestockingTues Banned

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    Gee wilikers that's a crazy serve :shock: Keep up the good work :)

    Dennis10is: Can you imagine how scary it would be to play Johnny if he was a lefty?
     
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  13. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Lol, thanks. If you can see it, do you think my arm is dropping too fast (left one that is)?
     
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  14. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    Lol i can tell your flexible just by your quick service motion, no way I could do that. And yeah your serve definitely gets your momentum going forward really fast. I don't get as big of a jump as i'd like into the court, so I usually end up relying on my speed to get to service line. I'd probably sprain something if I tried your serve haha, your lucky your that flexible.

    Looking forward to the add-court vid :D
     
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  15. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

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    So I was pretty good in scouting you. No slice :) which is a shame because I think you can do it, even though you toss behind you, and you do toss the ball behind you right?

    The way in which you fall as you serve would make the serves you hit on your vid, your natural shots so that is not surprising.

    Can you post a follow-up vid with you serving the kicker up the T. I would assume that this is your bread and butter shot in match play. And make it your second serve kicker.

    I can see that you are extremely flexible and have lots of natural talent to snap that body. Ultra slow motion would show this but you have the knee bend, the back arch and the shoulder comes around very fast, what I can't tell is whether the legs are driving the hips and it hips are driving the back and shoulder or not. So, I have to ask your for a self-report: Do you snap your hips, and feel that the hip snap is the force that drives the back and shoulder or do you feel that you legs goes straight up without much hip involvement.
     
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  16. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, you scouted me pretty well, lol... :cry:

    Yeah, it'll be a while before I have another opportunity to video my serve (unless the weather is kind to me outside... :-?).

    Hmm, as far as the hips, I think you're right in that the hips aren't snapping really... Yeah, that'll be the next thing to work on (besides getting a consistent toss...).

    How 'bout the left arm? Is she droppin' too quickly? :confused:
     
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  17. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

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    Only if he learns how to hit a killer slice :)

    I can imagine him being able to hit a slice that hits 6 feet up from the line, lefty curving away on the ad side.
     
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  18. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

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    If I have to say yes or no on the left arm I would say yes, BUT, your body is in the way so I can't say for sure. Not that easy to go frame by frame with You tube. I did notice that your left arm disappear from view but your body is in the way so I can't be sure what you are doing with it.

    I can say that at the end of the serve, you left is away from your body but that does mean that it was tuck close to your left ribs during the serve. Can't tell.
     
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  19. RestockingTues

    RestockingTues Banned

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    I imagine him hitting a 130 flat bomb to my backhand that ricochets off of my frame and knocks out some of my teeth :?
     
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  20. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Cool, thanks. Hopefully the ad-court vid will clear a few things up (YOUTUBE IS THE DEVILS VIDEO SEARCH ENGINE!!!).
    Lol, I have hit a serve at 117 mph, but I'm a LONG ways away from 130 mph... :-?
     
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  21. BullDogTennis

    BullDogTennis Hall of Fame

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    it looks good. the only thing i can say is you might want to try to start tossing the ball a little higher. it will open up a lot more windows if you do. your kinda limited with such a low toss.

    and is that a single indoor court? is that at your house?
     
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  22. IvanAndreevich

    IvanAndreevich Legend

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    Good luck to anyone trying to read this serve.

    How about a video from the side? It certainly looks like you could toss the ball a bit more forward and to the right. It is a flat serve, after all. You could produce way more power there. Get that 130 mph :)
     
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  23. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, I'm going to work on extension as well as snapping the hips and consistent toss the next time I have access to the indoor courts...

    It is a single court, but it's tiled and there are 2 volleyball courts next to the tennis court. Half the year the middle court's volleyball, half the year it's tennis. It's a volleyball court right now... :( I wish it was at my house...
     
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  24. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Lol, yeah, but then it would take away from the disguise... It's also REALLY inconsistent if I toss it to my right... :cry:
     
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  25. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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  26. smoothtennis

    smoothtennis Hall of Fame

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    Very fast motion no doubt about it...but you do it well. It IS hard to actually analyze though.

    Look, I have a serve that is VERY much like yours ----quick toss, fast motion to the ball, and a highly reduced loading phase (time wise). And of course, it's very comfortable for me.

    When I played a former top 50 All American this year, he commented that I really had to get that toss higher and lengthen the loading time. So I have been giving it a go. When I slow it down, get the toss higher, and load a bit longer in the trophy position, I nail the ball so much better - better angle into the court, and a cleaner hit. Here is the rub. It feels like I am waiting 15 seconds before I hit the ball. When I film it, it still appears faster than most guys serve motions!!! So I know the issue is my head.

    I am still working on reconciling lengthening the load, and getting the toss higher. The problem, is when you lengthen the toss and load time, you cannot just immediately bend your knees as you and I do now. So the timing has to be altered for the most part. And then we have to carefully make sure to sync the upward thrust of the legs with the dropping of the racket head into the backscratch.

    The best part about your serve? It's probably great in the wind!
     
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  27. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I think you have just about the most advanced and more important, the hardest to read serve posted of himself.
    Except for "huge" serve guy, you are #1.
    So learn to slice it wide duece court so you can also slice it up the middle on the ad court.
    All the serves seem to be about the same speed, so prolly first serves. You have natural top/side on the ball, which gives the ball good motion. Add that with your quick windup, and you've got a really effective serve.
     
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  28. samster

    samster Legend

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    nice serve. quick toss and swing.
     
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  29. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, I've tried and tried and tried to lengthen it out and get more length out of it, but I keep coming back to what works. It's nice to know that it can be done, but I don't have the time or facilities to do that right now. Maybe during the summer...

    Yeah, I have the best wind serve that I've ever seen (minus various pros I've seen in person...).
    The slice will come, maybe... Thanks for the positive comments!

    Yup, in the immortal words of "Larry the Cable Guy": "Git'r Done!!!"
     
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  30. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    One RoscoeTanner had a serve with a quick motion, low toss, and really disguised hard to read.
    He was a big guy who didn't move well, didn't have great groundies, couldn't return very well, but was once #4 in the world. Lefty, hardly anyone could break his serve.
    I see that in JSV's serves.
    Remember that CyYoung award winner TimLincecum? He only threw around 96-98 mph fastballs, but nobody could read it with his stalled, unorthodox delivery.
    If they can't read it, it's GOOD.
     
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  31. unprotennis

    unprotennis New User

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    damn... those look like bullets, 'specially with that quick, slow toss.

    jonny you got a radar gun?
     
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  32. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    I was actually going for Tanner (albeit a right handed one w/o a slice serve...). He's in my tagged items for the vids. His serve was HUGE (people who say no-one served over 115 mph before 1985 have never seen him serve).
     
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  33. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Friend does, clocked one at 117 mph. I average 100-105 mph on firsts and 70-75 mph on seconds.
     
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  34. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

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    Hi Jonny,

    OK, yes, with this angle, I do not see much hip involvement and your left hand "disappear" mechanically after it tosses the ball.

    Your serve motion is hard to read but you are predictable in terms of placement at least on these serves. I don't know if you were aiming them or you were just serving to the middle but the majority of your ad serve will also naturally go to the returner's forehand.

    Also, I felt that I could read your serve somewhat by not looking too closely at your toss or swing but the general big picture motion of your entire body. Your "tell" is your entire body, not a toss or the swing path.


    Is it true that when you attempt to reduce the natural sidespinon your serves, you tend to serve long by 2 feet or so?

    Next time you post your serves, can you aim them to the three locations?
     
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  35. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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  36. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    That's awesome. When I posted my serves someone said I was hitting in the 90s, but im pretty sure your serves are more than 10mph faster. It's hard to judge these things based on vids I guess. Also, why cant you hit a slice? That's a pretty easy to learn and its really effective for S&Vers. I'm guessing because of the toss to the right or do you just not "get that serve"? I'll have to ask around and see if there's a place with a radar, I really want to know mine.

    is your serve your "weapon" or your volleys? It seems like your serve would be, your rocking that ball haha. And I dont think your serve is inconsistent if your making 65% in like that. Don't worry about it, your serve is great...believe me
     
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  37. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Going by paragraph, yeah, I can see the left arm now... Another thing to fix.

    I was mostly aiming them out-wide on the deuce and up the middle on the ad, your right. I can hit them anywhere, I guess I just decided I wanted to work on those ones in particular... :confused:

    Yeah, I notice that on the second vid, especially between the kick/twist and the flat serves. You still can't really get a feel of WHERE I would hit them though.

    Yeah actually, it does seem like that. Coincidence?

    Maybe, depends on if I can move the table that I put the camera on... :-?
     
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  38. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Lol, thanks. It's mostly the toss and I don't want to give up too much disguise (and I genuinely don't know how to get my body lined up to hit a decent slice serve either... :confused:). You've got a pretty nice serve though, and you look FAR more athletic than I so I've got to say you've got the bigger upside.

    My serve is my big weapon, which is helped by the sheer variety I can hit with it. My serve's not really inconsistent, I just can't hit it where I want as often as I would like (hence the needing to fix the toss). I like touch volleys though, so I get to hit drop-volleys and angles pretty often (with enough consistency to win matches at least...).
     
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  39. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Well, thanks for all the comments! Jonny needs to get to bed... 8)
     
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  40. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

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    In terms of reading your serve, I would anticipate spin by your general body motion, but because you were serving pretty much the same location, after awhile, I was saying, forehand, forehand. I can't tell for sure but the follow thru pretty much follow the location of the serve but I can't tell beforehand. There's not enough data points, not enough variation in serve location for me to built anykind of "read".

    What I meant the three location would be if you could serve just down the T. Mix up your speed and spin but just down the T. And then the jam serve, and the wide serve.

    100 and change is what I would say your comfortable first serves are right now, so your friends's radar is correct. You have the potential of serving a lot faster but more importantly heavier spin.

    Can you show your 75 mph second serve one day?
     
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  41. halalula1234

    halalula1234 Professional

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    its really fast and compact. Not bad cus it can really surprise ur opponents :p
     
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  42. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    Alright man later.

    Thanks for posting the vids, they were really great to watch. It's nice to see a good S&Ver out there:) You've got a good game, keep it up. I think you should keep this motion, its working really good as far as I can see. I think once you get the slice down that serve alone will give you the angles you need/lack. If I saw anyone else with your windup I would tell them switch to a "normal" windup, but your something else. If you feel your ball toss is holding you back though, then go ahead and work on it. You probably already know this but I'll say it anyway: When working on your serve, don't change too many things at the same time. Just focus on small things every time so your consistency won't get messed up. I tried changing my ball toss,knee bend,stances in one day and it wasn't pretty haha. And when you have a serve like that you don't need to be athletic lol, that will kill everyone at the highschool level.

    Keep up the hard work!!:grin::grin:
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2009
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  43. EikelBeiter

    EikelBeiter Professional

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    I think, i'm not sure because your motion is so fast, if you slow down your service motion a little, you will be able to hit the ball a little higher in the air. It seems that you don't get maximum reach. If you slow it down a little and work more on that throphy position, you would use your left arm a little better and then you can hit the ball a little higher. Also a slice service would be easier to execute if you slow down that serve a little.
     
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  44. smoothtennis

    smoothtennis Hall of Fame

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    Johnny - I agree with Eiklebeiter, and I understand what you told me.

    I have decided to bite the bullet after 13 years of serving this way, and overhaul the whole timing. I have had mixed results, but you know what made me finally decide to just do it? When I get the toss higher (and mine is quite low), and load longer, some of the serves I hit are much more explosive with the same swing, and I can see the trajectory difference. When I time it right, I get a good extra foot up the fence off my first serve. And that is with kinda jacked up timing still. If I can get it smooth and relaxed and not think about the technical components, I expect my first serve will be something I can count on for a lot more free points.

    Anyway - best of luck!
     
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  45. thejoe

    thejoe Hall of Fame

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    Love the motion. Quirky, but damn effective :p
     
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  46. nickynu

    nickynu Semi-Pro

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    seems to me that with that fast an action consistency might deteriorate over the course of a match as you get tired Vs what you wold have with a smoother slower action. Is that an issue you encounter?
     
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  47. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    This is a weird video, I'll have to vary the serves on the next video...

    I can hit them harder, but I was directing them more out wide and up the middle then anything.

    I'll put a vid up of my big kickers.

    I get that a lot actually. I usually don't get broken (if they can break me to begin with) until later in the set, and it's usually because of my mistakes or there lucky shots...

    Yup, first things first, more extension! :)

    The rhthym is weird if I slow it down and I don't have the time to do that now, so I'll work on it over the summer. The main thing I'm going to work on for now is extension and snapping the hips, maybe slip in a little slice serve work.

    Thanks, come summer a few things will change (considering I'm trying for a DII college team in August).

    Yup!

    I really don't get tired with it during a match. I S&V all the time, so I don't work as hard as a lot of baseliners out there. I may not be the most fit individual (could stand to loose about 10-15 lbs of fat...) but I have a really developed cardio system (comes from practicing wind instruments close to the same amount as I practice tennis, more-so in the winter).
     
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  48. ShcMad

    ShcMad Hall of Fame

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    Up until now, I thought my friend had a very fast serve motion. But, man, yours is lightning quick. May I dare to say that yours is even faster than Roddick's motion. But, overall, I think you have a nice serve.
     
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  49. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

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    I have at times hit with a fast motion like that. It does work quite well in heavy wind. I also have a friend that used to play on my USTA team who always served with a fast motion like that.

    I think there are two things that make such a motion a little weaker than the more traditional slower motion.

    One, which has been mentioned is extension. It's quite difficult to fully extend and hit up to the ball with that motion. I was totally unable to get full extension with such a fast motion.

    The second is pronation. It seems to be very unusual for someone to have full pronation on their serve with such a fast motion. Pronation and extension is what gives you the ability to nail a serve that jumps up off the court and will hit the back fence still rising. Most of the time when I connect cleanly and hit a serve like that it's simply unreturnable. I can't really hit that one with any consistency, but once you hit a few serves like that you will probably have the same revelation that smoothtennis and I had. There will be no going back.

    I hit a serve like that in a match one time at the city tournament. There were a few of my team mates behind the court watching. I was down 30-40 at 4-4 in the first set. I thought to myself that there was no better time to throw down something big to change the momentum in my favor. So I went for the big first serve down the T figuring I could play it safe on the second if I had to. BOOM! Unreturnable ace about 5 inches inside the line. The ball hit the back fence about 6ft. up on the rise. My opponent barely had time to to turn his shoulders. The best part was the spontaneous gasps and laughter from my team mates. Winning that game was the turning point in the match. I won easily in two sets after that game. Once you have hit a serve like that, you will always be chasing another. Just thinking about that serve makes me want to go out and practice. :)
     
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  50. W Cats

    W Cats Rookie

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    Johnny, Here is my one cent cause I'm not sure it's worth two.

    Left arm- I think the speed and which you drop it is directly related to the height and position of your toss. Your release point is low as is your left arm extension. If you were to extend that arm higher and for a longer period of time, my guess is that by putting more mass (arm) up and possible behind your center of mass you would feel off balance. Bringing your left arm in quickly also allows you to quickly rotate your shoulders and let fly on that low toss. Simililar to what an ice skater does when they spin, albeit on a differnet axis. The closer they bring their arms in the faster they are able to execute the spin.

    So it's all part of the package that is uniquely your serve. One that would have me just counting up your points as they go zooming by me. :oops:
     
    #50

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