just FYI - interesting match for DB

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by mikej, Nov 2, 2012.

  1. sundaypunch

    sundaypunch Hall of Fame

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    Yes, and this is the entire point.

    It's a tough call. Not one that warrants the "psycho tennis parent" routine. Certainly not one that warrants calling someone a cheater.

    We were supposed to have video proof of multiple bad calls. I was expecting to see a few points where you freeze-frame the video and the ball is clearly in. What we got is a video that the vast majority of people would think shows the opposite.
     
  2. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    agreed, as numerous posters have commented, both these points seem rather obvious

    saba won both and got credit for only one of them, bigtime cheating right there, haha
     
  3. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    try to remember that you're talking to no1coach's lapdog, not someone who is watching these videos with an open mind

    no surprise that she disagrees with the majority after watching
     
  4. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    to me the biggest question from the videos is who is the ref who doesn't know the basic rules of tennis

    i was in a very similar situation numerous times in junior tennis - refs always knew the rule that they could not make a judgment based on marks if they were not there for the point and the players did not agree on a particular mark found on the court

    i once had a ref stay on the court and call a second serve foot fault on an opponent just a couple points after he cheated me with the "no ref on the court, don't need a mark" rule - always suspected it was his "make up call" for me for being cheated without anything he could do about it
     
  5. BirdieLane

    BirdieLane New User

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    The inside out FH was clearly wide...the three frames from punch and lack of shadow shows it very clearly.

    The floating ball was admittably very close. Might have nicked the line but any player knows if it's that close, you have no argument - unless you have a mark. The REAL mark.

    But again, clearly, DB could do without the drama in his matches. Get rid of the theatrical/in-your-face c'mons. And challenging these sort of line calls shows a lack of mental strength...basically looking for excuses to cave in.

    Get some calming between-point routines and show confidence and composure and resilience instead of creating drama where it's not needed (challenging calls and fist pumping UFEs).

    He does have big groundies and a great build for the game as well as great footwork for a big guy. So the potential is definitely there. Get it going mentally and tactically and he could definitely succeed.
     
  6. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    agreed with all this - i should have previously mentioned that i agree there is no way to say whether the second ball is in or out with it crossing saba's body like that

    but yeah, first video clearly out (i don't even need the great three frames from punch - but i guess they're nice proof if you're struggling with it in full speed) - second video who knows but terribly uninformed overrule from ref and dishonesty from DB in pointing to a much shallower mark
     
  7. SoCal10s

    SoCal10s Hall of Fame

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    come on people .. Saba is a seasoned college veteran and Deit is still 16 .. he took a set off the college player on clay ,which is not his best playing surface.. but that 3rd set was a beatdown,6-1.. even one or two bad calls are not going to change too much of a 6-1 score .. DB is a awesome 16 yrs old USA ,maybe future pro, player.. this is what goes on in tennis ,deal with it already .. there are going to be bad calls,intentionally or mistakenly ... as a player of this status he should know better.. just keep fighting for every point..

    yesterday I watched a high school match, a girl made 2 bad calls in a row.. I know her and I know she is not a cheater but when questioned ,she's not going to reverse her call,even when everyone saw it otherwise.. it's just tennis,people make mistakes on calls .. we all play out serves because they are just too hard to call.. it's just the way it is..
     
  8. sundaypunch

    sundaypunch Hall of Fame

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    Great point. This is what people should be talking about. There really is no need for drama and excuses.
     
  9. jmnk

    jmnk Professional

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    just because this is such a lovely thread. Here's a snapshot of controversial call on the right sideline. On the frame before the ball is obscured, and the frame after it is well in the air already - so this is as good as you can see it.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  10. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    Just curious SoCal if DB is a an awesome maybe future pro based on the fact, in part, that he lost to the #111 college player 6-1 in the third, what does that make Donaldson? He is quite a bit younger and playing with a kid's body- he is 6'2" 120 lbs. Oh and in a pro tournament he just beat the #300 ranked pro in the world.
     
  11. tenniscp

    tenniscp Semi-Pro

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    Singling out a result is never a good strategy. By the same token, Donaldson lost to an 800 ATP player 6 0 6 1 the very next week. Are we to assume that his level is such? I d say that Donaldson is certainly capable of posting a result such as beating a 300 ATP player, as well as beating Matteo martinez, a fellow top 10 ITF junior. At the same time, he loses 0 and 1 to a much lesser player.

    Then using your logic, what are we to say about Kozlov, who is 14 and nowhere near the athlete that Donaldson is, or the height (6 2) that Donaldson is.

    DB losing to Saba in three sets is not a result that DB should be proud of. At this point we can tell that DB will be very competitive with college players and win his share of matches. How well will he fare on the low level futures level we don t know since he has not played enough main draw matches.
     
  12. SoCal10s

    SoCal10s Hall of Fame

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    sorrry I don't know Donaldson... I've seen DB throughout the years and have seen his steady progress though a lot of adversities .. I know these hardles that he has overcome will make him more hungry to achieve his goals.. it's all about the fight ,what's inside your stomach that makes you a world beater ...
     
  13. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    You are not being realistic about DB's chances of a pro career. He has virtually no chance. I don't know any player that has come from as far back as he is now to a real pro career (top 100). His recent play, losing to #111 college player, is indicative of his current level. Do you understand how far that is from being a pro? Many win the NCAA's and can't make it as a pro.
     
  14. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    But the whole controversy here is about calling a player a cheater. The burden of proof is on the accuser. Your questionable claim about the photos not being definitive is irrelevant. At the very least, the photos definitively establish that you cannot publicly claim that Saba was cheating.
     
  15. ClarkC

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    I wonder where he could have picked up the drama habits?
     
  16. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Why predict the demise of DB?

    Just be a good American and wish DB (regardless of BB) all the best.
     
  17. SoCal10s

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    you can say the same for every kid out there who wants to make a pro career .. bottom line is no one knows what kind of chemistry will turn a person to a pro player.. if someone does,I'm sure they can bottle it and sell it for millions ...

    exactly.. I like this.. I've never said DB will 100% be successful as a pro... I just want to see this kid make it.. he has as much chance as any.. sometimes,a little brain washing and positive thinking can go a long way ...
     
  18. BMC9670

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    In, out, good call, bad call, bad ref... doesn't matter. This is part of tennis. Looked like it was handled on court. To me it's laughable that it's blown out of proportion by Dad.
     
  19. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    You gotta throw in "Mikej" too, just as trollish as BB.
     
  20. Freak4tennis

    Freak4tennis Guest

    6-1 in the third is pitiful especially when you factor in all the line call dialog, the "come on's" on unforced errors, the number of short balls.

    I would add that anyone can sneak a set off of anyone within reason. But can they win the match. Many go deep in NCAA's, many don't play D1 tennis but there is a clear indication of current level.

    The videos expose a lot of good things, and quite a few holes. While technically sound, the game style, and movement just don't appear advanced enough for tour level tennis.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2012
  21. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    you can "throw in" whoever you want if you want to look like a mental midget

    the fact is, i started a thread with posts that were informational rather than antagonistic (knock yourself out, go back and look at my posts opening up this thread), and it turned ugly like many DB-related threads when no1coach decided to slander someone because his son couldn't beat them

    yeah, will i strike back when he does that - absolutely no doubt
     
  22. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    haha hahaha hahahahahaha

    do you actually mean this statement literally? you give him just as much of a chance of making it as a pro as any other junior you can think of? or is that just a throw-away doofus statement?
     
  23. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    He's a top 10 junior with 2 years left in juniors. What's so doofusy about the prediction? This year, there are only a handful of players at or above his level.
     
  24. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    rubin is the same age, has a higher USTA ranking (3), an astronomically higher ITF ranking (12 vs 598 ), and has won major ITF tournaments (such as the pan american ITF just this past month compared to a national open as DB's biggest tourney win)

    kozlov would be another example of someone who has a resume ridiculously better than DB, and he's much younger

    buy into this DB is as likely to make it as anyone fantasy if you wish - it has no basis in actual tennis results - pure fantasy

    ps - your statement "he's a top 10 junior" is too vague to mean anything - if you mean he currently has a top 10 standing in B18s USTA, then ok, yes, currently #8 in that list - but this is one data point among many - ITF ranking is certainly another - some players concentrate on USTA events, some don't
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2012
  25. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    The schedule isn't what matters, the end point is. DB could end up being a pro - just as much (or little) as other top juniors. Given his height and game style, he will take longer to mature in his game than others. Will he keep progressing for several more years or top out at some level? I have no way of knowing that.
    He is certainly not on the same schedule as Kozlov. However, that doesn't mean he has no chance, just that his chance is very small like most other high-ranked juniors. However, one or two out of that crowd will make it to at least a decent ATP level (more than paying the bills).
    I hope he considers college. Blake, Isner, even McEnroe went to college. He could take an additional couple of years and can see where he is before he ventures into the circuit full-time.
     
  26. SoCal10s

    SoCal10s Hall of Fame

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    you could buy into the junior rankings which we all know are pretty much meaningless as far as predicting the next ''pro''..
    for me ,I LIKE DB over those 2 kids merely because he has the size to beatdown a serve .. tennis is a lot easier when you have a big serve you can count on every once in a while to give you some freebie points..
     
  27. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    You named two. I said there was a handful. What is your argument? Something other than you think his dad is an arse?
     
  28. 2ndServe

    2ndServe Professional

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    I haven't seen him play but for those points. He just seems like a tall kid with a baseline game. Not particularly offensive minded save for the forehand. If he was a serve volley type player you could say give it time to mature. His serve does not seem effortless, overpowering or extra explosive for someone of his height. He seems to move decently for a tall kid.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
  29. JLyon

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    I am thinking DB should follow the Isner route, which would be college for 2-4 years to get mentally tougher and see what a grind it would be while also doing academics. Where was Isner at 16, I am pretty sure he was not expected to be a Top 20 pro
     
  30. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    the original argument was framed as "he has as much chance as any" other player by socal10s - that's what i originally responded to, then you took issue with my response

    you were the one that got off track with your "handful" comment...i responded to you because you took issue with my comment - doesn't mean i'm accepting the derailed terms of the argument you put forth - sure, by those terms, he's probably in the top handful of prospects, depending on the size of the "handful" - too vague to argue about
     
  31. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    so you're saying ITF ranking is not predictive - but size is more predictive???

    career high ITF rankings of the top pros (either their high singles or high combined depending on the time period they competed):
    djokovic - 24
    federer - 1
    murray - 2
    nadal - 145 (misleading since he stopped junior events @ age 16)
    ferrer - no junior itf record??? (interesting, don't know his history)
    berdych - 6
    del potro - 3
    tsonga - 2
    tipsy - 1
    gasquet - 1
    almagro - 18
    monaco - 61
    raonic - 35
    isner - 93
    cilic - 1
    simon - 242 (okay, here's a late bloomer i guess)
    wawrinka - 7
    dolgopolov - 21
    nishikori - 7
    kohlschreiber - 24
    haas - 11
    querrey - 10
    seppi - 68
    verdasco - 294 (just three career itf matches, don't know why)
    youhzny - 20
     
  32. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    Mike jr: Have you ever seen a player 16+ who has won no major titles, no significant wins make it as a pro? Add in the fact that he is not on the same level as the #100 college player, and he has no weapons that anyone who has seen him play has been able to discern. Yet folks on this Board keep thinking this is possible, in the sense that anything is possible. Just like it is possible that I will play first base for the Yankees, which is my lifelong dream.
     
  33. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    in summary:
    -17 of 25 were top 25 itf juniors
    -21 of 25 were top 100 itf juniors
    -and a few exceptions that didn't play itf juniors or stopped way early in the case of nadal don't fit the mold

    someone can extend this list farther down if they wish, i got tired at 25

    but i'd say it looks like there aren't whole lot of top players that don't have great success in itf juniors (i realize this is working retrospectively rather than prospectively from the top itf juniors list, so this is not to say there are not failures from among the top itf kids)

    either way, seems like probably a better gauge than mere height, but that's just my opinion of course
     
  34. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    you don't need to convince me that DB's chances are a joke

    but i like the mcdonald's slogan "hey, it could happen" blind optimism from some on this board

    everyone will realize it in due time - few more years
     
  35. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    i put a little more thought into this, since this idea of predicting the next great pros is of course interesting (i wish TCF were still around to weigh in, since he loved this topic)

    basically, of course we all know (like socal seemed to be saying), that we can't say a given top 25 ranked ITF juniors guy will make it as a pro - the simple fact of the matter is that most won't - there isn't room for 25 new guys to join the successful ranks of the ATP tour every year

    but can we say the following?: "with few exceptions, including exceptions where players were dominating juniors so thoroughly at a young age that they didn't play until they were 18 and had a top ITF juniors ranking, the successful big-money making pros will come from the top 100 positions in the ITF junior rankings, and very often the top 25" - i think we can adopt that statement

    sure, there is some nonzero probability that DB can be an exception, just as coaching32years still has some nonzero probability of playing for the yankees...DB's chances are better, but not much if you ask me
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
  36. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    fyi - DB doesn't have a poor ITF ranking simply because he hasn't played events like ferrer and verdasco (10 career singles matches between them) - DB has 11 ITF singles matches to his name this year alone

    could he play more ITFs and see his ranking rise a bit? - absolutely - but he's not fitting the mold of even the exceptions listed above - playing significantly more than them in ITF events and his ranking doesn't show it
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
  37. tenniscp

    tenniscp Semi-Pro

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    One finds it very difficult to argue with bare statistics and numbers that stare at you with stubborn persistence, and subsequently your claim that majority of pro players had a somewhat sucessful junior career certainly is valid.

    I also have noticed that you are very keen on making a point that this particular player has a minuscule chance of making a money making pro. My question to you would be, who do you think from US juniors on the scene has a legitimate chance of becoming a pro. In other words, do you have a pony in this race? Or do you just render opinions on who won t make it?

    You seem to lean in the direction of Rubin or Kozlov, it would appear. Are you predicting a bright future for those two or just making a point that they are more advanced in their junior development based on their rankings and results?
     
  38. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    i think guys like DB and similar players that have a nice USTA ranking but no major tournament victories or success against the top ITF juniors have essentially 0% chance

    i don't have a "pony in this race" in the sense that i have a son competing or something (don't know if that's what you meant) - but yeah the next great US junior will be someone like rubin or kozlov (i've said in the past on the college boards at least that mitchell krueger has essentially no chance in my mind, so i'm well aware that being a top international junior doesn't automatically make you a guy with a great chance of making it as a pro - but the future top pros will come from the top international juniors - guys like rubin and kozlov, not DB)
     
  39. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    sure, if i have to pick a pony to race against DB, i'll take kozlov

    (after rereading, that seems to be your point - who am i going to stick my neck out for)

    but, like i've said, even his chances are not that solid, neither are rubin's...most top ITF juniors won't even make it

    but both have chances of making it that are orders of magnitude better than DB's
     
  40. tenniscp

    tenniscp Semi-Pro

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    Jack Sock practically never played any ITF tournaments and had to be given a wild card into one grand slam (us open) that he played and yet won it. To me it seems that it s not so much about what your ranking on ITF or Usta is but rather the level of your game. Kids like rubin and Kozlov and papa and others play a pretty full ITF schedule and have some success. Kids like sock did not play ITF but did play highest level Usta tournaments and excelled there (numerous gold balls and other success for jack).

    My point is that one has to be winning and competing on a high level somewhere, be it ITF or Usta or cosat or college tennis and arrive at a certain level of tennis to be able to get to the next level. What road you take to becoming a pro can be adjusted as you go along but the level has to be there.
    It s who you beat and the level that you are able to beat that s a telling story. If DB beats top college kids, junior prospects or solid Usta competition, he could be at the right level developmentally. Under a different management (better scheduling, coaching, planning) DB could be on a path to have a chance to become a pro. He had the size, athletic ability and determination and with the right people around him he does have a chance. As much of a chance as the Rubins, kozlovs, papas and krugers. Will he or any other kids make it is a poke at the sky at this point. At least from my tower of opinions.

    P.S. I do agree that so far db's "body of work" includes a few good wins, a few close matches with a good level competition, a few puzzling losses. Overall, a mixed bag! Then again, he may mature later in terms of his on court identity. Right now he is a baseliner with no net game or much forward movement into the court. He has to change his style to a more aggressive baseliner who comes forward to have any chance, IMHO
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
  41. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    Your best counterexample is a guy that had a top 25 itf ranking (despite barely playing ITFs, as you point out) - sorry I couldn't take your post seriously once I realized that
     
  42. tenniscp

    tenniscp Semi-Pro

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    Whether you take my post seriously or not is secondary to me. I am trying to have an exchange of opinions on the topic that s somewhat interesting for me. I don t take things personally on these boards, a very impersonal platform for swapping ideas.

    I understand that Sock finished his ITF escapade with a top 25 ranking, but my point was that he never played a full schedule on an ITF circuit. He did, however, compete at the highest level in Usta and successfully so. Sock s tennis level and development were sufficient to produce a result such as winning a junior slam. So again, it was where his game was more so than what his ranking was before he participated in US Open juniors.
     
  43. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    sock had 23 GOLD BALLS as well as us open rd of 16 and orange bowl quarterfinals results to his name (in his rare ITF appearances) before winning that us open juniors title

    how many gold balls does DB have? best orange bowl result? best us open result?

    i continue to fail to see how he fits into discussion of DB's potential any more than a snake in my backyard

    sorry, not trying to make things personal either, this argument just makes absolutely no sense to me
     
  44. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    We'll see where DB is in 2 years. He's made a lot of progress this year. As I said before, no way of knowing for sure whether his progress will accelerate or top out. He will have to learn to take advantage of his height.
     
  45. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    anyway, i'll let the rest of you guys continue this line of thought, no1coach only paid me to be his "research monkey" for a couple hours today haha

    hopefully i made him proud, i'd hate for him to fire me if he didn't like my ITF career high research
     
  46. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Well, I liked your career high research. Thanks a lot for the info. Also, Monfils (who wasn't on the list - injuries) was #1, winning 3 of the 4 junior slams with Murray winning the U.S. Open Juniors.
     
  47. tenniscp

    tenniscp Semi-Pro

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    I m sorry that I can t be a sidekick in your constant referral to DB. I think you are mistaking me for someone who cares to counter argue and juxtapose DB s accomplishments against Sock's. If you read my comments about DB s results, you will find that I categorized them in a " mixed bag" variety, whereas Sock 's were praised as successful and impressive. However, you can t deny that at 16 or 17 years of age Sock failed to get past first round in Easter Bowl, PanAm and some other tourney, falling in straight sets to Bo Seal, Sandgren and others. It s easy to say that Sock was great anyway now, since we know what he has accomplished since but I am certain that after a few first round losses, there were many who claimed that he had no chance of making it.

    A year ago, Peliwo lost in PanAm closed early and had a mixed bag of junior results. Who would have predicted that he would go on to dominate junior ITF circuit the way he did this year. And yet only a year passed!

    It s easy to be a Monday morning quarterback, much harder though to predict success while the books are not closed.

    Again, you obviously have an undeniable need to slam DB and bring him into every conversation, I guess primarily because of his father' s unorthodox ways (put mildly) of promoting his son, but my intention here is not to prove to the contrary but rather to have an interesting and insightful discourse on the subject.
     
  48. Freak4tennis

    Freak4tennis Guest

    Break this down by country. There may or may not be a predictive pattern.
     
  49. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    It's not about slamming DB or any player. It's about getting people to face the obvious truth- a player who at 16+ has ZERO major titles, USTA, ITF or Grand Slam - not even a trip to the finals- has ZERO shot of becoming a top 100 pro. Of all the American boys who reached their 18th birthday in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012- only ONE is in the ATP top 100.
    Now some folks are telling me a kid who has won nothing at 16 plus has a shot. It is crazy.
     
  50. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    fine, one more response for you

    we're in a thread titled to be about DB - sorry - i thought he was being discussed here

    sock, again, had over 20 gold balls - if your point is we shouldn't dismiss the chances of such a player based on one or two early ITF losses, i can agree with that - obviously

    peliwo was winning ITFs as far back as '09 - and won the pan american closed in '10 (quite easily - lost 6 games combined semis and finals) - and then got to semis of pan american and orange bowl in '11 - you can pick out one or two lesser results to pretend he came out of nowhere if you want - you're probably fooling a few people who are too lazy to actually look things up

    again, i'm going to compare him to DB (sorry, you can exit my thread about DB if you don't like it) - his 'mixed bag' is not quite DB's 'mixed bag' - unless an insane person is making the comparison

    good stuff, had a fun day throwing ideas around with you, take care
     

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