Just wanted to say Steffi Graf is in no way the best ever!

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by davey25, Oct 28, 2004.

  1. davey25

    davey25 Banned

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    I just want to say Steffi Graf is definetely not the best ever and it annoys the heck of me when I here she is. Here are some obvious reasons:

    1)She does not have the most slams record, Court has it
    2)She does not have the most Wimbledon record, Navratilova has it, in fact Graf is only 3rd
    3)She does not have the most French record, Evert has it
    4)She has neither the most U.S opens or most Australians record
    5)She does not have the most tournament wins record, she is 3rd behind Navratilova and Evert, a distant third
    6)She would not have the most weeks straight at #1 record if there were rankings when Lenglen and Wills played
    7)She does not have the record for most consecutive years winning a slam, Evert does at 13 to Graf's 10
    8)The year she and Navratilova and Graf were both closest to being in their primes together, 87, Navratilova owned her in big matches, smoking her in the Wimbledon and U.S open finals, and narrowly losing in the French final, the surface that most favors Steffi against Martina
    9)When she and Seles were both in their primes Seles dominated winning 7 of 9 slams, her only two coming at Wimbledon, again the surface that most favored Steffi against Monica
    10)She set no significant records even with her chief rival stabbed prior to half of her slams being won. Hello, her chief rival was stabbed halfway through her eventual slam wins and she still couldnt break a single significant record even with that
     
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  2. HeavyBall

    HeavyBall Rookie

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    Hey! It's good to see some enthusiastic women participating in the TW forums!

    At least I assume you are. How else could you care so much about something like this?
     
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  3. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Graf is the greatest. Live with it!
     
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  4. chad shaver

    chad shaver Semi-Pro

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    Just wanted to say that you have way too much free time on your hands....
     
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  5. rhubarb

    rhubarb Hall of Fame

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    Interesting...why would a woman care about this, and a man not care? Just curious ;)
     
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  6. Kevin Patrick

    Kevin Patrick Hall of Fame

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    HeavyBall,
    good to see chauvinism alive & well. Are your women allowed to vote in Fort Worth, TX yet?

    Davey,
    I think you're stretching a little on some of your points. Yes Court has the Slam record(24) but half of them were at the Australian Open which throughout the 60s & 70s didn't have very good fields, they were almost exclusively played just by Australians. I have many old tennis magazines, the Australian Open was not considered an important event by the media of the time.
    Virtually no respected tennis journalist(Steve Flink, Bud Collins, etc) would rank Court above Graf, Navratilova, or Evert.

    You think Steffi was closest to her prime in '87 when she was 17? That's like saying Federer was in his prime in '03 as opposed to '04.
    Check out Steffi's records against Martina in '88 & '89.

    Graf doesn't have any significant records?She became one of only 3 women in history to win the Calendar Grand Slam in '88 & is one of only 2 players to win every Slam event & the Olympics. She is the only female player to currently hold all 4 GS titles twice(she won all 4 from '93 to '94, in addition to her Slam year of '88)Graf made 13 straight GS finals from '87 to'90, winning 9 of them.
    Her most impressive achievement IMO, is to be the only player, male or female, to win every slam 4 times. Nobody has won every slam even 3 times.

    I agree Graf would not have won as many slams if Seles hadn't been stabbed but as it stands, Graf has some amazing records(some of them pre-stabbing).
     
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  7. Camilio Pascual

    Camilio Pascual Hall of Fame

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    Just out of curiousity, Davey25, who do you think was the greatest woman player and why?
     
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  8. @wright

    @wright Hall of Fame

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    She won the golden grand slam! Whether she is the greatest female player or not, she is better than you! Steffi Graf = many, many slams & you = no slams or records.
     
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  9. HeavyBall

    HeavyBall Rookie

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    rhubarb is right. I stand corrected. Women shouldn't care about this topic any more than men.
     
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  10. Dedans Penthouse

    Dedans Penthouse Hall of Fame

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    Seles IN HER PRIME (not the post-stabbing cow she's unfortunatly remembered as) was imho the best. A fearless, relentless competitor, she was as much a groundstroking machine with a KILLER mindset. She not only had the weapons to knock the other girls off the court, but she also had that rare Tracy Austin "I ain't scared of anyone" killer instinct upstairs, a "mental weapon" that spooked the likes of Martina Navratilova whose "game" including intimidating her opponents--but that "intimidation" factor did not include (when healthy) one Tracy Austin. And Monica Seles was cut from the same fearless/killer mold as Austin, albeit with a bigger, much bigger game. my 2c.

    Graf on the other hand (or, rather on the other feet), had the best "pins."
     
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  11. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

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    I agree with Sean. When she was in her prime, Seles was absoulutely dominant, and Graf was one of the players she dominated. Seles was the best I ever saw.
     
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  12. davey25

    davey25 Banned

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    I would choose Navratilova the best ever. However I would also recognize Lenglen, Wills, Connoly, or Court could be chosen as the best ever. Evert, Graf, Seles(because of the stabbing likely), and King are among the best ever, in order words they are in the group of "all-time greats" but could not be seriously considered as the best ever.

    How can one diminish Court's Australian Open record, yet dismiss Graf winning 10 out of 15 slams directly in the period after Seles was stabbed. Hello, any equality in standards here. Court missed having any chief rival from about 5 of her 11 Aussie wins, Graf missed having her former dominant rival present or the same as before in 10 of 10 93-96 Slam wins. I fail to see how Court had it easier of the two. I certainly do not get the impression reading Bud Collin's book he rates Graf above Court, Navratilova, or Connoly, among others. Her greatest direct compliment of Graf is "she and Navratilova are the best players from Europe since Lenglen". Rather tame I think.

    Graf does have the record as only player to win each slam four times. The more each, ifs, ands, withs you add in though the less principle the record is though. Anyway had slams been valued the same way back in the 20s and 30s Wills and Lenglen would have almost certainly done so with ease, albeit with weaker competition. Also what are the odds of her winning the French and U.S open twice more each between 93-96(or still winning an additional French in 99) had Seles not been stabbed. As for her Golden Slam record there was no Olympics in 53 or 70, in fact no Olympics any year during that period. Thus that as a basis for her superiority is irrelevant. The only player to hold all 4 slams twice? Do you think there is any way on gods green earth she would have managed to win "four straight" slams in the year directly after Seles stabbing had it not occured, for her second time of the feat. Regardless how you think the Graf-Seles matchup would have unfolded you surely cant think that. Anyway only calander slams are recognized to most people.

    If Graf wasnt in the start of the perimetres of her extended prime in 87 she wouldnt have been able to only lose 2 matches the whole year. Federer did not do that in 2003. Navratilova in her prime in 88 or 89? I hardly think Navratilova in her prime would lose twice in the same year to Zvereva in straight sets, or get clobbered by Zina Garrison 6-0, 6-4 in a U.S open quarterfinal, or almost lose to Fairbank-Nidiffer at Wimbledon. Ok maybe 1 or 2 matches like that a year, like her loss to Horvath at the 83 French, but not that many for a year she was in her prime. So I think 87 was the definetely the closest you could get Navratilova and Graf to being in their primes together.

    Lastly Seles absolutely did dominate Graf in 91-93. 7 slams to Graf's 2. I dont know why the media hyped their rivalry, it was no rivalry; just as Graf had no rival when Seles left, Graf was no rival to Seles when she was there. Even Federer-Roddick is more of a rivalry, with Roddick ending the year, albeit undeservedly at #1 in 2003. One cannot simply dismiss the Seles stabbing when judging Graf's numbers. Especially when it means Graf spent only 3 years of her clustered years of slams 87-96, which she won 21 of 22, with a fellow all-time great in her prime. Court, King, Navratilova, Evert, all had more than that. Seles had it for the entire period of her clustered slams win, 91-early 93 when she won 8 of her 9. Her post-stabbing wins are certainly tainted.
     
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  13. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    Re: Just wanted to say Steffi Graf is in no way the best eve

    In 1988, Graf won the "Golden Slam". That means in the same year she won the Australian, French, Wimbledon, U.S.Open, and won gold in the 1988 Olympics. What Male or Female has done that since??? I think she is the greatest indeed.
     
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  14. Phil

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    Have to go with Sean on this one. Seles won 8 slams before her 20th b'day-barring injury (and her attempted murder)-she would have probably won another 10 or 15...really. Graff was a fantastic competitor, but she won most of her slams during a period when women's tennis was as WEAK as it ever was (and that's REALLY weak)-Navritalova and Evert were ready to retire and, really, there was NO ONE ELSE. The rest of the women basically conceeded the match to her before hitting the first ball. That is until that freight train of a groundstroker Monica came along-the Monica Express ABUSED Graff and anyone else who had the nerve to face her.
     
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  15. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    i dont think so..seles with those really technically unsound groundstrokes and cumbersome footwork would have become injured (most likely) anyay, just as she has been when she came back after the stabbing. she was the first of the women to hit it really hard from both wings though. not that much different than roddick really....she had a killer forehand and killer backhand and roddick has a killer serve and killer forehand....now roddick seems to have a variety of malady;s too. you put it out there at 100% on every point and chances are you arent talkin longevity. my .o2
     
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  16. BiGGieStuFF

    BiGGieStuFF Hall of Fame

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    For those who say monica seles dominated graf. Both were great players but Graf does own seles 10-5 in head to head matches, with Graf winning the last 7 of 10 I like both players and each has their strengths but to me it's too close to call actually. You guys could argue forever but I lean towards graf because of them legs :drool: Plus I got an autograph from her which was awesome. Had to fight and scratch but I got it. Too bad my roomate took the hat I got the autograph on :(
     
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  17. Phil

    Phil Hall of Fame

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    BiGGieStuFF - I haven't bothered to look-up the head-to-head records, but how many of Graff's victories over Monica were post-stabbing? How many of Monica's victories were in GS finals or semi-finals? Someone who comes out of nowhere and, on Steffi's turf wins 8 Slams in less than three years...you have to admit, that's domination, regardless of head-to-head records.
     
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  18. BiGGieStuFF

    BiGGieStuFF Hall of Fame

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    Seles got stabbed in 93. Before that they played head to head 10 times. Graf winning 6 out of 10.

    1989 Roland Garros (Paris) Semifinal 6-3, 3-6, 6-3 Steffi Graf
    1989 Wimbledon (London) 4th round 6-0, 6-1 Steffi Graf
    1989 Brighton International (Brighton) Final 7-5, 6-4 Steffi Graf
    1990 Lufthansa Cup (Berlin) Final 6-4, 6-3 Monica Seles
    1990 Roland Garros (Paris) Final 7-6, 6-4 Monica Seles
    1991 Women's Hardcourt Champs (San Antonio) Final 6-4, 6-3 Steffi Graf
    1991 Citizen Cup (Hambourg) Final 7-5, 6-7(4), 6-3 Steffi Graf
    1992 Roland Garros (Paris) Final 6-2, 3-6, 10-8 Monica Seles
    1992 Wimbledon (London) Final 6-2, 6-1 Steffi Graf
    1993 Australian Open (Melbourne) Final 4-6, 6-3, 6-2 Monica Seles
    1995 US Open (New York) Final 7-6 (8-6), 0-6, 6-3 Steffi Graf
    1996 US Open (New York) Final 7-5, 6-4 Steffi Graf
    1998 Chase Championships (New York) Quarterfinal 1-6, 6-4, 6-4 Steffi Graf
    1999 Australian Open (Melbourne) Quarterfinal 7-5, 6-1 Monica Seles
    1999 Roland Garros (Paris) Semifinal 6-7(2), 6-3, 6-4 Steffi Graf
     
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  19. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

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    The point that I am making is no more than that in her prime, Seles dominated Graff.
     
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  20. Phil

    Phil Hall of Fame

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    Look at it this way-of Seles' 4 wins pre-stabbing, THREE of those were SLAM FINALS, while Graff beat Seles in tournaments such as the Women's Harcourt Champs and the Citizen Cup, and the HIGHLY PRESTIGIOUS Brighton Cup-and a couple Wimbledons, which Seles NEVER won-against anyone-like a female Ivan Lendl.
     
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  21. Camilio Pascual

    Camilio Pascual Hall of Fame

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    If we are talking about in their prime, I'll have to go with L'il Mo as the best ever with basically the same arguments used for Seles as best in her prime. Check out her record in the Majors before her tragic horseriding/car accident.
     
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  22. davey25

    davey25 Banned

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    Graf won only 1 slam per year when there was an all-time great in her prime, Navratilova in 87, and Seles in 91 and 92. So had Seles not been stabbed she probably would have 15 slam titles now, only #6 all-time including behind where Seles would be.
    She had 11 pre-stabbing.

    Seles did not dominate Graf as far as ever killing her in matches. She just dominated her as far as being the last one standing in big events much more often, and winning the final point of most of their big matches no matter how close they may have been. Of course Seles did not destroy Graf in their matches, Graf is an all-time great herself. She just won the vast majority when it mattered.
     
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  23. BiGGieStuFF

    BiGGieStuFF Hall of Fame

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    You can speculate how many slams monica would have had all you want but it didn't happen so you can only imagine how great she would have been. With steffi making the finals consistently in those years monica was out. Graf was in 11 out of 15 grand slam finals after the incident, winning 10 of them. Being Graf and monica would have been 1 and number 2 seeds and Graf having a good record against monica and even if you conceded half of those matches grand slams to monica, graf would still be on top in the GS count. It would still be to close to call who would be on top. Remeber Graf had 9 grand slams even before monica had her 1st one. Granted she came onto the scene later but as any new prime time player who comes surging onto the scene they are going to win some while the current champion is going to struggle a bit but eventually she found her groove again and I have no doubts that graf would have continued to win more than half their meetings. I'm being diplomatic here. Both were great players and you can argue until you're blue in the face but both were great players and either one deserves to have the tag of best woman's tennis player but unfortunately the edge will have to go to Graf because she does have hardware to show for it even though seles did have that unfortunate incident.
     
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  24. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Professional

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    Stefie is my fave female player ever, but i have to agree that Monica was dominating her at the time of the stabbing. Graf was in a bit of a flat patch as well, she had lots of distractions at the time and would have come back and gave Seles a good rivalry if not for the stabbing. Davey is looking in all the wrong area's for better players than Graf apart from Monica. He needs to go forward not back, i believe there is no doubt that Graf ended up a better player than both Martina and Evert if you pitted them thru their primes.
     
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  25. BiGGieStuFF

    BiGGieStuFF Hall of Fame

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    Monica was dominating the field but not dominating Graf. Graf did have distractions and faltered before she could get to the finals against Monica. Graf cleaned that up though but unfortunately Monica's incident occurred when Graf was back in her groove so we'll never know how it would have turned out but Graf had the winning head to head overall and also won 6 out of 10 before the incident from monica. It was pretty even.
     
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  26. German Tennis Instructor

    German Tennis Instructor Banned

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    well but obviously graf has done a great job (if not the best of all players) by trying to make women's tennis more popular. face it, the best thing that happened to women's tennis was graf playing against.....who was this guy?.....jimmy connors??? i am not sure but i think that's the one.

    maybe without steffie women's tennis would not be seen as an equal to men's tennis in these days....

    but honestly i think it is really not a good thing to name a person the "best". there will always be new stars coming out, especially from russia (if u knew under what conditions russian girls even want to hit the ball, than u would agree :)
     
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  27. paulfreda

    paulfreda Hall of Fame

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    Monica for sure

    Well Graf has the recordbook in her favor, but Monica
    had an unbeatable game in her prime. I agree that had
    that maniac not stabbed her, she would have won 20
    majors and Graf would have had maybe 15.
    Monica's groundie angles on both sides had never
    before or since been seen by anyone and her record
    would have been limited only by her desire to keep
    going like Martina did.
    A match with both players in their prime, Monica would have beaten King, Graf, Evert, Mo, Wills, Court and Martina.
    JMHO
     
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  28. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Professional

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    Graf and Connors? I remember Martina playing Connors, he got one serve and she got one alley but it hardly made a ripple publicity wise.
     
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  29. davey25

    davey25 Banned

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    Graf led Monica head to head 6-4. Yes, but who cares. 5 of those matches were before Monica's domination, 2 of 5 which she won anyway. 2 of their 5 matches during her dominance where in non-slam tournaments, both which Graf won. All that matters is that in slam finals Monica led Graf 2-1 during her domination. Also given that Graf was always more vurnerable to losing to other top players before finals, after 89, Sanchez, Pierce, Novotna, etc...Graf would have done well to keep winning 1 slam a year, while Seles continuing to hog 3 a year.

    Graf did struggle with her tennis in 90-91, no doubt. She began playing better in 92, still Seles managed to win 3 of the 4 slams, winning 2 of 3 finals with Steffi, and clobbering her in the last two sets of the 93 Aussie Open final.

    Graf better than Evert or Navratilova? Navratilova at age 30
    won 2 of 3 slam finals from Steffi in 87, in Steffi's first year of dominance on the regular tour(those were her only two losses that year). Even with Evert and Mandilikova to rival her Navratilova staked claim to the Wimbledon record of 9, while Graf with weaker grass rivals managed only 7. Navratilova took a potential record-tying, in retrospect, title at Wimbledon at 33 during Graf's reign atop womens tennis. Navratilova also owns a 4-1 U.S open head to head with Graf. Two of those matches are win in her prime over an undeveloped Graf. However one of them is a win by 34-year old Navratilova over Graf in 91.

    Evert? Chris owns the French Open record of 7 despite the additional titles Steffi won due to the Seles stabbing(Seles was 2-0 against Graf pre-stabbing and Graf managed 4 titles in 6 appearances after the incident). Chris also had to deal with Navratilova at Wimbledon, the only one of the big three majors she owns less titles; and owns one more U.S open despite the beneficial circumstances for Graf. Both Navratilova and Evert own many more tournament titles, greater longevity, and comparable slam totals overall despite facing another all-time great for many years.

    The only records Graf held before Seles was stabbed were consecutive weeks at #1, and the Golden Slam. The Golden Slam was not possable for Court or Connoly thus invalid. Rankings were not instituted when Wills and Lenglen, who both went over 5 years undefeated played. They no doubt, given their unbeaten streaks, would have eclipsed Graf's 186 week record had there been rankings.

    On another note I think Seles in her prime is the second best player against all others in their prime. Second to Connoly who played Seles's game even better, considering her timeframe. Neither are the best ever though, but the two best when both were at their peak IMO.
     
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  30. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Professional

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    No worries Davey but i was just speaking head to head, no records taken into consideration. I have no doubt that Graf would have beaten Evert in a head to head series on various surfaces and i feel she would have pipped Martina too.
     
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  31. davey25

    davey25 Banned

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    Well I agree on Evert. I personally think any of the all-time greats playing their best overpower Evert; Graf, Navratilova, Connoly, Wills, Lenglen, Seles, King, and Court; and even a few non all-time greats like the Williams. However her records are there, and she did face Navratilova in her prime for 2/3 of her span of big wins. As for Navratilova I dont agree. Watching them play in 87, when I personally feel anyway, Graf had already matured, and seeing Martina give Graf fits constantly even in her older age I see Martina being big problems for Steffi in their primes together.
    Here are a number of factors:

    1)Graf's return of serve while very good, isnt one of her best assets, nor one of the top few in the game. She is always late on serves with any power. Thus she would have trouble returning Martina's big lefty serve

    2)She doesnt like playing serve and volleyers especially on fast surfaces. Jana was spooked by Steffi and stayed back all the time.
    McNeil and Garrison have both beaten her at Wimbledon, you would never have expected that, and both won more sets from her than you would expect especially McNeil.

    3)Graf always passes at the same spots. Martina would read those.

    4)Graf has a very established game pattern. Martina who had so many tactical coaches would have come up with a plan to dissect it and Graf would not have adjusted well enough.
     
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  32. TheFifthSet

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    Well this thread is a little extreme, I'd say Graf has a legitimate case for female GOAT, but hey, to each his own. I think you're being a little unfair to Graf though.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2010
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  33. dannythomas

    dannythomas Semi-Pro

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    I agree it is debatable whether Graf is best of all time but she does have the most balanced record across all the slams.
    To bring in people like Lenglen, Wills Moody, Connolly is pointless because it was a completely different game in those days.
    I dismiss Seles as a contender because of her non existent grass court performances . Also she was eclipsed by the power hitters in the second part of her career. If you really want to include Court remember that Ausopen was played on grass in those days - lucky for Seles they changed it. But you cannot ignore that nobody showed up to play in Australia in those days
    including Court's main rival Billie Jean King.
    I don't see how Serena can be left out of any discussion on GOAT. She overcame adversity in her life in a way that Seles did not and her all round game including the best ever serve in the women's game is on a par with anyone and far better than Seles.
    I like the way that people belittle Steffi by saying she was owned by Seles and Martina. The records show otherwise. Graf had a losing record against NONE of her rivals. It is also the sign of a great champion that they know when to retire . Sampras went out after winning the US Open. Graf's last 2 slams were winning the French and getting to the Wimbledon final.
    For me there only 3 contenders - Graf, Navratilova and Serena. I can accept the argument that Martina should be given some credit for all her doubles wins ( Serena is likely to win a few more too ! ) So while I would probably still give it to Graf Martina has a strong case too. Serena's distractors say she has not won enough titles outside of slams. But who is going to remember that ? Just compare Serena to so called former number 1's Safina and Jankovic who nobody seriously believes could claim that position !
     
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  34. davey25

    davey25 Banned

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    I agree but a non white player as the GOAT is an impossible concept to many, hence why Serena does not get the due consideration she deserves.
     
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  35. MotherMarjorie

    MotherMarjorie Banned

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    Serena doesn't get "due consideration" because her on-court results do not reflect GOAT standards...end of discussion.
     
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  36. Joe Pike

    Joe Pike Banned

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    A player with less than 40 titles but losses to all-time greats like Testud (twice), Likhovtseva, Suarez, Shaughnessy, Schnyder (4 times), Rubin, Petrova (3 times), Zvonareva (twice), Jidkova, Farina Elia, Schiavone (twice), Craybas, Sun, Hantuchova, Bammer (twice), Chan, Chakvetadse, Srebotnik, Wozniak, Na Li, Azarenka, Zakopalova, Stosur in her 12 peak years is not even a 2nd-tier great.
    Whether she is white or non-white.
     
    #36
  37. davey25

    davey25 Banned

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    I dont mean that Serena should be considered the greatest ever now. However if she reaches 20+ slams she should be and I have a feeling there will be many who dismiss her as even being a candidate. Yeah some stats she will still be inferior, but modern day womens tennis is far more competitive than ever before.
     
    #37
  38. Joe Pike

    Joe Pike Banned

    Joined:
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    You mean so competitive that players like Jankovic, Ivanovic, Safina can get to #1?
     
    #38
  39. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    6 year old thread, and it is as dumb today as it was 6 years ago.
     
    #39
  40. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    True. That is the central motive behind the endless threads attacking SW: any mind truly cognizant of how the players/sport is judged for historical purposes understands that player value/standing (whether in tennis or sports history overall) is based on slam count--the very reason when so-called "GOAT" lists are formed, the first and last consideration are the slams won during a career--not the endless, meaningless sideline events. History, the players and the majority of those (with sense) making such judgments consider the slams the pinnacle of tennis achievement.

    When Sampras or Federer were moving forwrd in their respective careers and added to the discussion of possible "GOAT," it was based on their slam victories--not (ultimately) the irrelevant minutiae of sideline stats never whispered in the same breath as the slam total conversation.

    The ususal suspects know this all too well, and reveal their fear of SW being strong enough to add more slams to her record--and with that, they will not be able to weather or control the tennis/sports/general media's evaluation of her with every additional slam won. It is happening already, and unlike some of the usual suspect's tennis gods, SW appears strong enough to still play slam contender tennis no matter the age, or (in most cases) the competition faced, as seen in two of the 3 slams played this year.

    Fear is in the air, davey, so expect more trolling, pointless, minor stat threads and the common, morally bankrupt BS posts as Serena wins the most important events, no matter when slam 14 arrives to keep this particular train rolling.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2010
    #40
  41. Warriorroger

    Warriorroger Hall of Fame

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    After so many posts you finally show your true colours. Man/woman, one should feel sorry for you and angry that you have so much time to have so many posts here. (many/some) people don't like Serena, not because she is black (and note, black is my favorite colour and Graf's) , but because she's a self-centred cow doing nothing for the sport tennis itself. Tennis is to serve her. Graf was not a Saint, neither was Navratilova or Evert or even non- GOAT Seles, but they showed up the whole year, to play the sport they loved, to compete at grand tournaments and less grand tournaments, so that all fans were able to see them. Neither sister gives a sh it about you or the other fans, and pull out of tournaments whenever they feel like it. You can spend your life belittling Graf's achievements. We, her fans loved her for her great way of playing tennis, playing through pain and controversy and today we still love her. We don't need to open endless debates about how other players were lucky or overrated, just to feel less insecure.

    If Serena were white, I would find her a white self centred cow!
     
    #41
  42. PSNELKE

    PSNELKE Legend

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    Davey is a fool though I have to agree with him.
    IMO Graf isn´t the best ever.
     
    #42
  43. thejoe

    thejoe Hall of Fame

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    You're clinically insane.
     
    #43
  44. rovex

    rovex Legend

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    My eyes burn reading this.
     
    #44
  45. Warriorroger

    Warriorroger Hall of Fame

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    I second this!
     
    #45
  46. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    you wanted to say graf is not the best ever, you could have said it and skipped the posting\writing part... that was unnecessary!
     
    #46
  47. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    21,362
    It has nothing to do with the color of their skin. Players earn their status for what they have done on court. Simple as that.

    Most GS titles
    player total
    1 Steffi Graf 22
    2 Martina Navratilova 18
    2 Chris Evert 18
    4 Serena Williams 13
    5 Margaret Court 11
    6 Monica Seles 9
    7 Billie Jean King 8
    8 Justine Henin 7
    8 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 7
    8 Venus Williams 7

    Most GS finals
    Rank Name Total
    1 Chris Evert 34 (18 )
    2 Martina Navrátilová 32 (18 )
    3 Steffi Graf 31 (22)
    4 Evonne Goolagong 18 (7)
    5 Serena Williams 15 (12)
    6 Venus Williams 14 (7)
    7 Monica Seles 13 (9)
    8 Margaret Court 12 (11)
    8 Martina Hingis 12 (5)
    8 Billie Jean Moffitt 12 (8 )

    Most single titles
    Rank Player Singles
    1 Martina Navratilova 167
    2 Chris Evert 157
    3 Steffi Graf 107
    4 Margaret Court 92
    5 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 68
    6 Billie Jean King 67
    7 Lindsay Davenport 55
    8 Virginia Wade 55
    9 Monica Seles 53
    10 Hingis 45

    Most weeks at #1
    Rank Player weeks
    1 Steffi Graf 377
    2 Martina Navratilova 332
    3 Chris Evert 260
    4 Martina Hingis 209
    5 Monica Seles 178
    6 Justine Henin * 117
    7 Lindsay Davenport 98
    8 Serena Williams * 111
    9 Amélie Mauresmo 39
    10 Dinara Safina * 26

    Consecutive weeks at #1
    1 Steffi Graf (1) 186
    2 Martina Navratilova (1) 156
    3 Chris Evert (1) 113
    4 Steffi Graf (2) 94
    5 Monica Seles (1) 91
    6 Martina Navratilova (2) 90
    7 Steffi Graf (3) 87
    8 Martina Hingis (1) 80
    9 Chris Evert (2) 76
    10 Martina Hingis (2) 73

    Year end No. 1 players
    player year
    Steffi Graf 8
    Martina Navratilova 7
    Chris Evert 5
    Lindsay Davenport 4
    Justine Henin 3
    Martina Hingis
    Monica Seles
    Serena Williams 2
    Jelena Jankovic 1

    All surface single winning percentage
    Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
    1 Margaret Court 593 56 91.37
    2 Chris Evert 1309 146 89.97
    3 Steffi Graf 902 115 88.69
    4 Martina Navratilova 1442 219 86.82
    5 Monica Seles 595 122 82.98
    6 Serena Williams*[1] 462 98 82.5
    7 Justine Henin* 503 109 82.18
    8 Billie Jean King 695 155 81.76
    9 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 704 165 81.01

    Clay court singles career winning percentage
    Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
    1 Chris Evert 316 20 94.05
    2 Steffi Graf 273 30 90.1
    3 Justine Henin* 122 19 86.52
    4 Monica Seles 142 25 85.03
    5 Martina Hingis 109 25 81.34
    6 Martina Navratilova 202 47 81.12
    7 Gabriela Sabatini 196 49 80
    8 Venus Williams* 127 35 78.4
    9 Lindsay Davenport 120 35 77.42
    10 Conchita Martinez 294 88 76.96

    Hard court singles career winning percentage
    Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
    1 Steffi Graf 335 36 90.3
    2 Chris Evert 304 37 89.15
    3 Martina Navratilova 340 48 87.63
    4 Monica Seles 311 59 84.05
    5 Serena Williams* 294 57 83.76
    6 Justine Henin* 243 53 82.09
    7 Kim Clijsters* 256 56 82.05
    8 Maria Sharapova* 197 45 81.01
    9 Venus Williams* 320 76 80.81
    10 Lindsay Davenport 472 115 80.41

    Grass court singles career winning percentage
    Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
    1 Martina Navratilova 305 39 88.66
    2 Chris Evert 184 25 88.04
    3 Venus Williams* 68 10 87.18
    4 Serena Williams* 52 8 86.67
    5 Steffi Graf 85 15 85
    6 Maria Sharapova* 52 10 83.87
    7 Justine Henin* 45 10 81.82
    8 Jana Novotna 79 21 79
    9 Kim Clijsters* 40 11 78.43
    10 Tracy Austin 43 12 78.18

    Carpet court singles career winning percentage
    Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
    1 Martina Navratilova 516 58 89.9
    2 Steffi Graf 189 23 89.2
    3 Chris Evert 209 39 84.3
    4 Serena Williams* 34 7 82.93
    5 Martina Hingis 97 23 80.83
    6 Kim Clijsters* 50 13 79.37
    = Monica Seles 98 26 79.03
    8 Lindsay Davenport 93 27 77.5
    9 Tracy Austin 85 25 77.27
    10 Venus Williams* 50 17 74.63

    Most singles matches won
    Player Wins
    1 Martina Navratilova 1442
    2 Chris Evert 1309
    3 Steffi Graf 902
    4 Virginia Wade 839
    5 Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 759
    6 Lindsay Davenport 753
    7 Conchita Martínez 739
    8 Evonne Goolagong Cawley[5] 704
    9 Billie Jean King 695
    10 Gabriela Sabatini 632

    Most match winning streak(all surfaces)
    Rank Player Matches
    1 Martina Navratilova 74
    2 Steffi Graf 66
    3 Martina Navratilova 58
    4 Margaret Court 57
    5 Chris Evert 55
    6 Martina Navratilova 54
    7 Steffi Graf 46
    8 Steffi Graf 45
    9 Steffi Graf 44
    10 Martina Navratilova 41

    Most consecutive singles titles
    1. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
    2. 12 - Margaret Court (1972-1973)
    3. 11 - Steffi Graf (1989-1990)
    4. 10 - Chris Evert (1974)
    5. 9 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
    5. 9 - Margaret Court (1970)
    7. 8 - Steffi Graf (1988 )
    7. 8 - Martina Navratilova (1983)

    Best annual singles winning percentage
    1 Martina Navratilova 98.9
    2 Steffi Graf 97.7
    3 Martina Navratilova 97.5
    4 Steffi Graf 97.4
    5 Martina Navratilova 96.8
    6 Martina Navratilova 96.7
    7 Steffi Graf 96
    8 Margaret Court 95.3
    9 Chris Evert 94.9
    10 Margaret Court 94.8



    Most consecutive years winning at least one singles title
    1. 21 - Martina Navratilova (1974-1994)
    2. 18 - Chris Evert (1971-1988 )
    3. 14 - Steffi Graf (1986-1999)
    4. 11 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970-1980)
    4. 11 - Virginia Wade (1968-1978 )
    6. 9 - Sandra Cecchini (1984-1992)
    6. 9 - Margaret Court (1968-1976)
    6. 9 - Lindsay Davenport (1993-2001)
    6. 9 - Conchita Martinez (1988-1996)
    6. 9 - Arantxa Sanchez Vicario (1988-1996)

    Most singles titles won in a year
    1. 21 - Margaret Court (1970)
    2. 18 - Margaret Court (1969, 1973)
    3. 17 - Billie Jean King (1971)
    4. 16 - Chris Evert (1974, 1975)
    4. 16 - Martina Navratilova (1983)
    6. 15 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970)
    6. 15 - Martina Navratilova (1982)
    8. 14 - Margaret Court (1968 )
    8. 14 - Steffi Graf (1989)
    8. 14 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
    11. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
    12. 12 - Chris Evert (1973, 1976)
    12. 12 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1971)
    12. 12 - Martina Navratilova (1985)
    15. 11 - Tracy Austin (1980)
    15. 11 - Chris Evert (1977)
    15. 11 - Steffi Graf (1987, 1988 )
    15. 11 - Martina Navratilova (1978, 1979)
     
    #47
  48. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    You are rather naive (perhaps deliberately) to attempt to make the blanket suggestion that her race has nothing to do with at least some of the socially bottom scraping crap posted about her on this board. Certain TT members (in consideration of their posts) containing such references as "gorilla," "ghetto," "food stamps," "Haitian voodoo princess" etc.--ended up on the moderators' radar, which the mods saw fit to delete--ask yourself...no, ask the moderators "why?".

    You will quickly find there will be no debating their view on the nature of the content.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2010
    #48
  49. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    ...when one line smokes out so many about one subject...it says much.
     
    #49
  50. Warriorroger

    Warriorroger Hall of Fame

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    You can think whatever you like, I used the word some and many. IMO she is not a likeable (black) person. The OP brougt up race and thereby suggested that all who dislike or just don't care for Serena are racists. If Graf were black, wore a tusk through her (big) nose and married a guy named Marlon, she would still be my favorite athlete.
     
    #50

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