Keeping the elbow close to the body a myth?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by ktncnttl, Jun 12, 2005.

  1. ktncnttl

    ktncnttl Rookie

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    I have read on various occasions that you should keep your elow close to the body when you are hitting a forehand. However I have notices than most pros actually open up their elbows for their forehands. The most noticeable are Agassi and Gonzales. So whom should I believe, the pros or the articles?
     
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  2. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Neither. Experiment for yourself and see what works. I think lots of stuff they teach in tennis is a myth and you must try it for yourself. Big examples are backscrach motion and snapping the wrist.

    Lots of times kids are taught a certain way to play and when they grow up they teach it that way too. The ball in the armpit is a good way to help a student learn how to hit a forehand but I think that is a myth also. Maybe its something you do in practice but its too hard to hit a fluid forehand with a ball in your armpit if you're going for the real thing.. maybe 1-3 balls is a good rule.. So experiment and see what works for YOU!

    Thing is, many myths in tennis have some truths.. You want to drop your racquet head during a serve (backscratch motion), you want to hit down on the ball (wrist snap), and you want to keep elbow close to body (ball in armpit rul)
     
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  3. ktncnttl

    ktncnttl Rookie

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    "you want to keep elbow close to body (ball in armpit rul)"

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    But look at roddick, his elbow is raised above his shoulder...............
     
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  4. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    It's not a myth at ALL.

    It's essential. The pros do it. In the "Forehand Consistency" thread, there's like a 30 post discussion on it, lol.

    The pros keep the elbow out for the backswing that's fine, Then when their racquets taken back, they pull it in and swing with the elbow in until after contact.

    Hardly a myth.
     
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  5. ktncnttl

    ktncnttl Rookie

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    "The pros keep the elbow out for the backswing that's fine, Then when their racquets taken back, they pull it in and swing with the elbow in until after contact.

    Hardly a myth."

    Well, at least it is a half myth.
     
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  6. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    Half myth? What was mentioned in the thread, including the drill of tucking a ball under the armpit, is intended for the forward swing only.

    I don't know of any people who do it on the actual backswing much, so I guess it can't really be a half-myth either. :p
     
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  7. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Tell me how federer keeps the ONE ball in his armpit during contact here.. you have to admit, its a half myth.. the drill is good for practice but not really practical in a match.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Not quite..

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Marius_Hancu

    Marius_Hancu G.O.A.T.

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    Some of you might have a subscription at:
    http://www.tennisplayer.net

    Then you should read this article

    Roger Federer and the Evolution of
    the Modern Forehand
    By John Yandell

    where Mr. Yandell confirms that Federer hits many times with a arm relatively straight (at the elbow), with an S-W grip, as in the pics here, but that he is also using a more-pronounced "double-bend" FH (arm bent at elbow and wrist). As a matter of fact, he mentions here that Fed might have 3 or so varieties of FH.

    Also you could see there that his elbow is farther from the body than for the other players.

    I feel that with the above he puts less strain on his elbow tendons than others.
     
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  10. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    TwistServe, it's generally been gone over. Thanks for the pictures and such though.

    Eastern grips have it slightly farther away. Federer is a mild semiwestern, so it's sort of close.

    The ball tucked under develops the feel, and the players (even those with an Eastern grip) generally keep it relatively in. Federer is not a typical player, and people should not always try to emulate him. What works for him does not work for all others.

    It's practical in a match for almost all players.

    Marius, thanks for the information as well.
     
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  11. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Once again the young child in you makes statements without any proof or backing. I've clearly showed evidence that pros are not doing what you said. Its just just federer. Tim Henman, Gasquet, among other pros will not have 1 ball in the armpit. It has not generally been gone over. There has been much dispute over your forehand consistency.. mainly from other people that have been playing years longer than you. The only people that have accepted your findings are the people just learning how to play and other kids.

    The ball in the armpit is a nice rule guideline but trying playing with one in your armpit lol. Most pros have a variety of strokes and the 1 ball in the armpit is not essential. Moreover, its essential to keep the elbow bent and close to the body but still have a fluid motion. Sometimes this means 2 balls in the armpit, sometimes this means 3 balls.

    I can post many pictures of many pros.. not just federer.. that shows they cannot have 1 ball in their armpitt.. i can also show u pictures of normal 5.5 players and NCAA players too.. And you cannot discredit my pictures by saying oh they are pros so you cant copy them.. you need to play the right way because pros play the elite way... Simply stating, all your talk is talk and you have not showed one ounce of proof that the 1 ball rule is ESSENTIAL as you state.
     
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  12. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    Makes statements without proof? I had a 30 post war going on in the forehand consistency thread. Well, actually, I was constantly repeating things to thereallovebone, who was confused. But if you look in there, all the information, plus a series of posts by BB, describes everything.

    I have also gone over that you're NOT supposed to play with a ball in your armpit. Doing it develops the feel for the elbow in closer, or simply allows players to minimize excess movement in the elbow, and control it. That's a large factor of inconsistency, and is important for ALL players to be able to do.

    Post the pictures. Most pros start with the elbow out, and pull it in for the swing. There are always exceptions, it's a personal preference. But being able to control it is a necessity. The ball helps stabilize that.
     
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  13. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    A 30 post war is not proof that the one ball under the armpit is "Essential" and that all pros are doing it.

    You also said that one shouldn't emulate the pros.. So why are u hypercritcal about one thing and then say it for another. Don't copy the pros but do copy the pros.
     
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  14. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    Respond to the rest of the post as well.

    I posted about the pros because it's the only thing people seem to want to do. You have posted pictures of pros as well.

    When I say you shouldn't emulate the pros, it means you should develop what's comfortable for you, and play with it accordingly. Hypocritical? Find what's comfortable for you. However, there are always optimum technical parts of every stroke.

    If it helps you to understand, the pros are all able to control their elbow efficiently. This can be developed with the ball drill, and is essential for players. Keeping the elbow in makes this easiest. However, at this point, after the player has been able to efficiently control the elbow and arm, they should be able to develop their stroke accordingly to personal preference.


    edit:: As for the 30 post war, I simply meant most of the information was already in there. Please read BB's posts, they should provide some additional insights.
     
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  15. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    Another thing to prove the benefits of keeping the elbow in:

    Added control, especially with the returns and hitting on the rise (where timing and control is most important). You'll see Agassi, Guga, and many people with a good return keeping the elbow in more than usual on the swings.

    I believe, off the top of my mind, that Federer keeps is elbow at the usual location for him a little further away. But he manages to do this because he has erased the elbow's free and excess movement, and can control it.


    edit:: Upon searching for additional information about the subject, I found out about another point. Keeping the elbows in allows more of the power to be generated from the body (legs, torso, large muscles). When it's further away, these muscles have less of an impact on the ball and you arm it more (obviously) which sacrifices more control. Using the large muscles allows you to retain power without eliminating consistency.

    It might be a reason Federer has so many forehand mishits.
     
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  16. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    I think you should tell federer your analysis and see if he agrees LoL
     
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  17. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    These two statements conflict with each other. The first statement you say its essential for the elbow to be in. The second statement you say do what is comfortble to you implying it is not essential Lol.. Nice one but you've been known to change your advise quite frequently after realizing you made a goofup/mistake.
     
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  18. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    His forehand is devastating with lots of variety added in, but almost all of his errors come from his forehand.

    Any idea where I can tell him? :p LOL.
     
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  19. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    His error does not come from his form. His error comes from going for the lines, going for too much, and being offensive when he shouldn't be. You're getting ridicously funny when you claim that federer's form is causing errors and he's been playing Tennis for his lifetime, you've been playing since 2003.
     
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  20. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    When it's further away, you arm it more. That's a fact. When you arm it more, it's generally more inconsistent. That's a fact. That part was pretty much not in a serious tone, that's a fact, too. :p

    On another note, going for the lines and going for too much is different from a mishit. Doing those would cause the balls to be slightly out and whatever. Federer has raw mishits.

    As for the other part, I said that, too I believe. There are key parts of professional strokes that would benefit everyone's game. However, once they've worked out those key parts, a large part is their personal style and preference. Most pros share large stroke commonalities and are effective. But somehow, their strokes look much different than each other. That's their style, their preference.
     
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  21. Mahboob Khan

    Mahboob Khan Hall of Fame

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    Obviously if the arm is straight leading to contact (Federer), the elbow will be away from the body.

    Let's briefly examine the forehand swing:

    -- The upper part of the backswing loop

    -- The racket dropping from the upper loop

    -- Lower part of the loop (prep to forward swing)

    -- The forward swing leading to contact

    -- The contact point

    -- The follow-through.

    OK, you guessed it. With the bend arm, it's in the forward swing just before-during contact that the elbow bone is closer to the right side of your rib-cage. After contact and in the follow-through the elbow will be finishing away from the body and high. Thus, the elbow is high in the backswing (upper part of loop), and high in the follow-through!
     
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  22. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest





    These two statements conflict with each other. The first statement you say its essential for the elbow to be in. The second statement you say do what is comfortble to you implying it is not essential Lol.. Nice one but you've been known to change your advise quite frequently after realizing you made a goofup/mistake.
     
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  23. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Good analysis.. So as I suspected the armpit can only hold a ball at contact if that's even possible. Probably 1-2 balls more like it.. Before and after contact your body is fluid and will probably not hold any balls in the armpit. Thus the myth is a half myth.
     
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  24. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    How many times have I answered this question?

    The ball drill is to help people get a feel for controlling the elbow and eliminating free movement. The reasons for improving consistency are obvious and you already know them.

    I've answered that question in multiple posts already.

    They build the feel for it, they learn the benefits of keeping it in. That's what you're aiming for.

    If they're able to use this and can control the elbow easily when it's further out, that's fine.

    You've been consistently yelling about that seeming contradiction. They need to learn to get the feel for eliminating the excess movement. Then, if they can do it, and it's comfortable, they try moving it out.

    I'VE SAID IT OVER. AND OVER. AND OVER.

    Mahboob's dissection is great. You're agreeing with it. However, that's exactly what I've been saying in post the whole time. During the swing and around contact the elbow moves in. Many pros start with it out, and move it in for the contact. It moves in closer to the right side of your body, as I've said, and moves out again during the followthrough.

    He said that exact same thing, and you agreed with it. I said the same thing before.
     
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  25. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    Here we go. I took a friend who has an account on tennisplayer.net, which you seem to agree with.

    The exact quote he found:

    There is no doubt the hitting arm stays in by use of bending and keeping the elbow in, right?

    On another note, Federer is not a good example period, because the form and variations on his forehand are so much different from everyone elses. Not just "flattening it out" or if "he wants to add topspin" as you thought when someone said it inside the "FH Consistency" thread, he has all kinds of different finishes, setups, and general strokes for the same type of ball.

    A quote from myself. Did I not already say here, a while ago, that the elbow moves in and around for contact? You agree with that, you've said it yourself.



    Need I not mention BB, who you completely agree with in other threads? Do I need to quote him, too?



    edit:: Wait, I have discovered yet another point in proving you wrong.

    You don't want the elbow near the body right? You believe it should be at LEAST two balls away, right? Would you mind telling people how to try keeping their elbow put and actually swing at the ball with two balls in their armpit?

    It's a TEACHING mechanism. The drill, as I've stated countless times and am repeating myself again, let's the player get the feel for stabilizing the bent elbow. Correct? That's not disputable.

    What it is is pretty much a quick, easy drill anybody can do while trying to make their forehand more consistent. When the elbow is still out on the pros you are mentioning, their elbow is stabilized and bent, right? No excess movement during the swing? That's what the tucked-in ball helps you do.

    The people who are trying to fix their swing HAVE all that excess movement. They have their elbow and arm out and flopping around during the swing.

    That's what I'm trying to fix. That's what I've been saying everywhere this whole entire time. They do the drill, they get the feel for it. They go into matches with a stabilized, bent elbow that's fixed within two balls of the body, and is closest at contact.

    This entire time, you've simply been screaming and giving pictures. You have no idea what actually happens during the swing.
     
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  26. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Blah blah too much reading. It's like I'm grading a 10th grade essay and I'd have to give it a C+ but the girl refuses that shes wrong lol
     
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  27. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    I also have to notice that you never actually read the posts, you never respond to the actual content, and you refuse to give any actual knowledge of the swing itself.

    Too long? Would you prefer Dr. Seuss style? I can make it rhyme, and we can ride ponies across the ocean to Wimbledon and ask some other people there if you want.
     
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  28. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest



    His error does not come from his form. His error comes from going for the lines, going for too much, and being offensive when he shouldn't be. You're getting ridicously funny when you claim that federer's form is causing errors and he's been playing Tennis for his lifetime, you've been playing since 2003.

    Federer is doing calculus and you're doing addition. Sorry.
     
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  29. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    I also notice how you immediately change the subject, and you're STILL wrong. Plus, you're using pretty much the exact some post as you did before.

    His errors come from raw mishits. If he was simply not playing the percentages and going for too much, his errors would look a lot different.

    Would you like me to define a mishit?
     
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  30. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest







    His error does not come from his form. His error comes from going for the lines, going for too much, and being offensive when he shouldn't be. You're getting ridicously funny when you claim that federer's form is causing errors and he's been playing Tennis for his lifetime, you've been playing since 2003.



    Federer is doing calculus and you're doing addition. Sorry.
     
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  31. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    LoL i dont even know what you're trying to say. My forehand is my biggest weapon and easily a male 5.0 forehand. I just post in these threads because I like seeing how a person of great tennis experience and wisdom twist words, make inconsistent statements, change things they say, and make comments about how to correct federer's strokes lol.. Although its entertainment I think this thread is getting to the point of "no you can, yes i can, no you can, yes i can" which isn't fun anymore. Until the next thread :)
     
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  32. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    Wow. You're posting the exact same thing repeatedly, which isn't even really on topic.

    Would you like me to grade your writing as well? F for sentence variety and frequent mechanical errors in the majority of your posts.

    I'm not going to post in this thread anymore, it's completely unnecessary. On the same thought, I'll probably just skip out on the Tips/Instruction subforum altogether. I can't have people like you disproving me everywhere with your wide realm of knowledge, right?

    Absolutely not. Because TwistServe knows EXACTLY how to explain things and help people.

    I'll post the articles or whatever when I get to them. That's about it. Of course, TwistServe, with his deep knowledge of the game, will repeat himself and disprove me once again when I'm stating the well-known facts repeatedly.

    Thank you for your time in responding to this thread.


    Final edit:: Twist words? I have been simply quoting you and repeating myself at least ten times. Inconsistent statements? I repeat myself and explain it to you at least five after you post about the inconsistency

    It'd be fun in another thread, but that's probably not going to happen.
     
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  33. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Just three off the top of my head :)

    1.) First you said the one ball rule was essential. A few posts later you said do whatever feels comfortble for the player implying the rule is not essential.

    2.) You said the pros are doing the one ball rule implying everyone should do it.. A few posts later, you said just because the pros are doing it doesn't mean you should be doing it...

    3.) You said the shoulder is the ideal strike zone for a western grip. A few posts later you said the chest to shoulder was the ideal strike zone. A few posts after that you said it was personal preference..

    First thing about writing a paper or article: Don't get caught changing your introduction or thesis! Make a statement and than back it up. Don't change that statement a few posts later.. or just do the admirable thing and admit you're wrong, state why you were wrong and so be it.
     
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  34. tennisplayer

    tennisplayer Rookie

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    TwistServe - shut up. Kana's posts make very interesting reading, unlike yours. Please don't chase her away from these boards. Thank you.
     
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  35. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Sorry but I'm going to have to critique what I see is misleading. If she didn't make inconsistent statements I wouldn't have anything to write about. Or if she didn't say federer's form was incorrect and that she knows why he is "inconsistent".. there would be nothing to say..
     
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  36. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Federers form is not incorrect. It is definetely within the parameters of good technique and what is comfortable to him. If you break down the stroke, the fundamentals are there.
     
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  37. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    I definitely noticed that Federer's elbow doesn't touch his body on his forehands, but TS, you're using Federer to prove your point? What's the world coming to when TwistServe uses Roger Federer as an example?
     
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  38. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    I know.. I'm a federer troll on one board, and apparently a federer fan on the tips board :)
     
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  39. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Bumping this up for those that thought Federer's form causes inconsistentcy and mishits.
     
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  40. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    When looking back, this "Kana" person seems to cleared everything up here. I'd follow that advice.

    TwistServe, perhaps you could spread your expertise to her and help clear it up?
     
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  41. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Apparently this person made the statement after she had claimed the one ball in armpit was "essential" and that "pros" do it.. But later she changed the statement and said use whats comfortble.. Now theres a quote about the armpitt trick is a teaching mechanim? Sounds a little inconsistent and I would suggest this "Kana" person sharpen up her writting skills so as not to be inconsistent or quite changing what shes saying.. or just admit when she made a mistake.
     
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  42. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest



    Bumping this yet again because I think it got missed from more garbage posts...Federer's form causes inconsistentcy and mishits.
     
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  43. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    My elbow is definitely bent at contact, but I don't think a tennis ball would be fitting in my armpits on some of my forehands. On some they would and on some they wouldn't, but one thing I'll agree with is that a bent arm is much better than a straight arm for forehands and I know that Federer keeps a slight bend in his elbow, even on some of his eastern forehands.
     
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  44. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    The pros don't seem to keep it in the armpit. They develop the feel for keeping the elbow fixed and bent, just as the "Kana" person said. After they develop this feel, they can experiment upon what is comfortable with the addition of a fixed elbow.

    But you obviously comprehend it MUCH better than I do. She EVEN seems to be stating it's a teaching tool and drill several times, even in that "FH Consistency" thread. But gosh, my 20/20 vision must have failed me.

    She better start working on the writing skills. Forget that 760 SAT score...in the 7th grade. Forget those ERB tests, too. She's really bad if she repeats herself over and over and still manages to change the facts constantly.

    Thank god you were there.
     
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  45. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Rickson, my elbow is bent too.. Very bent.. I dont think we're aruging about that.. To recap whats been said:

    Kana:
    1.) It's essential for one ball to be in the armbit
    2.) Pros do it
    3.) Actualyl one ball rule doesnt count.. do whats comfortable
    4.) Federer has bad form therefore he is inconsistent
    5.) One ball rule is only a teaching mechanism

    TS:
    1.) blah blah blah

    BB:
    1.) Federer has nice form and fundamentals
     
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  46. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Maybe you are right and with time I believe that Kana's efforts to learn the game, teach the game, and help others will pay off for her. The biggest thing she needs to gaurd against is not to lose heart. I am for her, and I think it is great to see such enthusiasm from a youngster for the sport of tennis.

    One final explanation about the ball under the arm pit.

    It doesnt happen in real play. It is not suppose to happen in real play. The arm moves freely as the other parts of your body should move.

    No one clamps your wrist down and says now hit only this way.

    When a player lifts his arm up and has somewhat of an extension and swings in a gate like fashion - the ball under the arm pit helps bring the elbow down and the player is able to leverage off his body, learn to swing from the shoulder and chest and put his weight into the ball instead of just his arm. You have heard of "arming the ball" before? This is what it helps reduce.

    When you feed slow balls to a player with a tennis ball in their arm pits, they learn to rotate into the ball and make contact with their elbow DOWN.

    Once they get the hang of this and feel comfortable, the ball is taken out and the arm swings freely. Depending on body position to the ball, the arm will extend some or very little and the person will rely on other parts of their body to contribute to power while keeping the elbow in a good technical position to hit through the ball.

    That's it guys! I am done explaining this. It is so simple and so obvious this is happening in pros strokes. Quit measuring the ball under any players swing. That is not the purpose of the exercise. It is to solve an extended arm at the elbow and bring it in more.
     
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  47. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    Kana, I'm not siding against you or with TS. TS is my boy and all, but I believe you're both right to a degree but not completely. Elbow in can be a good thing, but not absolutely essential, and completely straight armed forehands are damn ugly and I wouldn't use them.
     
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  48. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Guess you want to get into personal growth and status?

    Wow 760 SAT score in 7th grade.. This Kana girl is going to go to harvard..

    As for TwistServe, apparently he graduated from a top 20 university (which he wont name) and is making a six figure salary. That's probably why he has the most expensive ball machines, 9 racquets, a stringer, among other things.
     
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  49. takeuchi

    takeuchi Rookie

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    lol are you both on here 24/7? i've never seen so many back and forth posts in multiple threads.
     
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  50. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    HOLY JESUS.. KANA ARE YOU LISTENING? Okay I'm not going to rub it in.. You're young and your efforts are good, you have heart I'll give you that.. and when you refuse to say your wrong it becomes annoying and you show your immaturity. I've been wrong and I've admitted to it .. you grow from it and show you're not just some 15 yr old teaching a game she just learned a few years ago. but when you're wrong admit to it..
     
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