[Kick Serve] Dirty Diaper Concept by Jeff Salzenstein: What do you think?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by stephan_58, Apr 20, 2013.

  1. stephan_58

    stephan_58 Rookie

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    While browsing some YouTube-Videos on the Kick Serve I stumbled across this interesting technique by former ATP Top 100 Pro Jeff Sulzenstein:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j34COa_LFKg
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPQVksgk-WE

    [​IMG]

    He calls it the dirty diaper. He's basically suggesting not pronating for the kick serve, but instead going over the top of the ball so the strings end up pointing to the player instead of the side. It's kind of hard to explain, you have to watch the video yourself.

    After reviewing a recent video of my own kick serve, I noticed that I've been using this for quite some time without even noticing it. Now I'm wondering if I should keep it or rather go for the classic pronation approach? My kick isn't exactly very reliable at the moment, but then again, the problem could very well be somewhere else in my motion.

    I can't recall ever seeing a pro hit his kick serve like this, so I'm a little skeptical. What do you guys think?
     
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  2. Lukhas

    Lukhas Legend

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    The "Dirty Diaper" isn't he way he moves his racquet. It's the way he teaches how to hit a kick serve progressively. And the approach is IMO good. IIRC, Djokovic did it years back. Now he got a consistent serve, which he didn't have before, or not as efficient. Like in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgdXawklcZk, people spend too much time wondering what happens in the legs, hips and so on, but at the end, it's the racquet that hits the ball. Immobilizing the legs helps the player to focus on how they hit the ball.

    EDIT: Pronation is also something that naturally happens when you hit a serve with a good grip. So it shouldn't be forced IMO.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2013
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  3. stephan_58

    stephan_58 Rookie

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    I think you didn't watch the second video I linked. To Jeff it's a valid technique that can be used in a good and full kick serve motion, as shown in the clip. So it's not just supposed to be a drill to get to a pronation finish. At least that's what I think he's saying...
     
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  4. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Professional

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    I think one HAS to pronate to bring the racquet from the on-edge position to ball contact with strings.


    I think Jeff should say the dirty diaper uses LESS pronation rather than repeatedly saying that dirty diaper uses NO pronation.

    It just confuses the issue.
     
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  5. Lukhas

    Lukhas Legend

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    And I watched the videos, as I already did before you even mentioned them. I'm saying the "Dirty Diaper" is a drill to eliminate your legs, hips, ect. from the equation when you try to learn a kick serve. People focus so much on the legs and hips they don't work enough on what's happening at contact IMO. I already wrote in other threads that leg drive is overrated. I said pronation is only something natural to happen when you hit a serve and nothing more.
     
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  6. stephan_58

    stephan_58 Rookie

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    Yes, you're right. I think that's the reason he's speaking of the pronation FINISH. He should mention that there's still pronation involved, but only up to the contact. After that is where he's applying his dirty diaper finish.
     
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  7. stephan_58

    stephan_58 Rookie

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    But he's saying that dirty diaper concept is a finish and you should NOT change to a pronation finish afterwards. Doesn't sound like a drill to me...
     
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  8. Lukhas

    Lukhas Legend

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    Once again, who the hell cares about pronation? The only stuff you need to know it that "it happens". End of the day. I'm not even saying you should pronate or not, I'm saying it just happens. I'm not saying finish this way or that way. I'm saying "pronation happens". That's all. I view the "Dirty Diaper" as a drill to delete the legs from the equation and I treat the fact of learning to serve on your knees as the dirty diaper. He treats and teaches it as a finish. We don't have the same view point about what the "Dirty Diaper" actually is, and we'll have to agree to disagree.

    As for drill... http://dictionary.infoplease.com/drill Definition 2b and 3.
     
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  9. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Pronation does not happen by itself in most club players, that is why it is mentioned. Only those who have a fluid motion with loose wrist find it happening automatically. Most others stop their motion before that and never complete the follow-thru.
     
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  10. Lukhas

    Lukhas Legend

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    Well if you hold your racquet in a conti grip (or even eastern fh grip to some extend), and do the "correct" motion (no pancaking), you will be forced to pronate to make the racquet head face the ball at contact, or you'll frame it. And that's before the follow-through. Or I don't understand what you mean.
     
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  11. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    Jeff Salzenstein explains it in this video...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVRexaM5a80


     
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