Kick serve theory

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Maximagq, Mar 30, 2014.

  1. GoaLaSSo

    GoaLaSSo Semi-Pro

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    It is crazy how good some club teams are. Florida and a few other teams have a lineup of all d1 level players.
     
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  2. crash1929

    crash1929 Hall of Fame

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    I haven't thought about this. I'll try this.

    One of the videos you posted on the kick took my serve to another level. (The one with the gentleman who sadly recently passed away- I can't remember which but will look for it.. I know can honestly say I'm playing at a lower 5.0 level. I'm holding my serve much easier. Also, for the first time I recorded my serve to post here, although no one gave me any advice or pointers, I took note of a lot of things I was doing wrong. I hate that I never recorded myself before. I'v totally changed from pinpoint to platform and incorporated the the techniques demonstrated in the video you posted. Thank you very much. You made a HUGE difference in my game with that video that will be lasting and consistent.

    The platform improves my placement and control. The video you posted helped in a ton of other ways to get the kick going. I use WAY less energy than with the pin point trying to hit bomb first serves. Now I'm getting awesome kick, great placement....I'm now using my wrist to pronate and help with placement. I've abandoned a passive wrist- you get way less power but control is improved tremendously. How hard do you really need to hit the serve anyway?? By the way I got the serve kicking so hard it wen through the fence the other day. First time ever.

    I can't seem to find that video you posted, maybe it was someone else...It's the older balding guy teaching a high school kid and it starts with him telling the and physically helping the kid to arch his back...

    One thing you might try for more spin, is try to loosen your grip as much as possible when snapping and notice the ball curve more.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014
    #52
  3. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    Aren't you a 4.0?
     
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  4. crash1929

    crash1929 Hall of Fame

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    @topsin- I've been USTA computer ranked 4.5 in San Francisco for many years. Average league record. But I've been improving technique on my serve a ton lately and it has been making a big difference.
     
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  5. Maximagq

    Maximagq Banned

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    I'm not sure if that is actually me haha, but I am glad you improved your serve :)
     
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  6. crash1929

    crash1929 Hall of Fame

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    yeah i couldn't find it in any of your posts! it must have been someone else! I'll try to find it and see what you think. Your game is coming along nicely. Keep working!
     
    #56
  7. Gyswandir

    Gyswandir Rookie

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    The video you are referring to was posted by cheetah in an old thread that was bumped relatively recently
     
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  8. crash1929

    crash1929 Hall of Fame

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    Ah yes. for some reason i was thinking that would be my second guess. Matt should see it and we should talk about it after. Let me try to find it. I can't express how much it helped me. Tennis is an amazing game....little tweeks can make a huge difference.

    I combined the teaching of that video with the heath waters kick serve video and my serve at all time heights. The big KEY is that I'm off the hot / cold streak trying to bomb the serve with poor control and now hitting consistent repeatable kicks. Still feel more comfortable with the launch of my body on the add side though.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014
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  9. Maximagq

    Maximagq Banned

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    Yes please link me the video. I always want to try to improve little by little. Thank you!
     
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  10. crash1929

    crash1929 Hall of Fame

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    Thanks Gys!

    Here is Cheetah's post- says alot about Cheetah- thanks dude:

    There has been a lot of twist serve talk here lately so I thought I'd post a nice video series I found on youtube that explains the serve in detail pretty well. The videos are of an instructor giving a student a lesson on the twist serve and was filmed by the student's father. The instructor breaks down the serve in detail and walks him through it step by step in 4 or 5 videos.

    IMO the twist serve is not complicated. It's just hard to explain in text online. Once you know what to do and practice the movements it's like anything else. This series covers everything you need to know. I like how he explains how to to do the turn and toss.

    They also have a couple of other vid series where they work on ground strokes and serve and volley which are good too. The instructor gives a lot of info on mechanics and strategy in certain situations so I'm sure a lot of you can benefit from watching these.

    Enjoy the vids.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw6hYOyeQqo
     
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  11. crash1929

    crash1929 Hall of Fame

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    #61
  12. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Rod Cross 'TW University' article on the kick serve with high speed video comparisons to flat serve -

    Click above on 'TW University'.
    Click 'Stroke Analysis'.
    Click 'Kick Serve Physics'.
    http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/kickserve.php

    'Choose Movies' is center of article - Double click on videos. You can use the arrow keys to advance or go back a single frame.

    1) Kick serve - chest & upper body faces more to right than for flat serve.
    2) Racket does not seem to have an exaggerated upward motion.
    3) In the article, he says that the kick is mostly side spin with some top spin and has illustrations of spin axes.

    The close up of the racket may have been taken viewing upward and that may make accurately judging the string path difficult.

    The differences in these videos for the flat and kick serve are more subtle than I had thought.

    There may be a lot of variety in how high level kick serves are performed.


    My view from earlier posts in this thread is that the kick serve is contacted earlier in the usual upward racket spiral that occurs with the internal shoulder rotation serve. The Rod Cross article videos don't seem to support this view of lower impact, Cross videos seem closer to the racket's highest point.

    This is a good project that could easily be solved by high speed video if a high level kick serve were available for videoing. Any ATP or challenger players with a strong kick serve want some videos? All you need is the frames before impact, impact and after impact from the right angles to see the string path. That can be done with a 200-300 fps camera with a very fast shutter.

    Maybe this is a topspin serve and not a kick serve?
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014
    #62
  13. coolschreiber

    coolschreiber Semi-Pro

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    just 4 frames dont put anything into context. you cant tell anything with those 4 frames.. whether its a flat serve or a kick serve. Frame sequences make no sense to me...and I'm guessing most people here.
     
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  14. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    Cool. Best of luck with your tennis journey.
     
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  15. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    The racket strings when in contact with the ball go relatively more up for kick and topspin, more across for slice and more forward for flat.

    At 240 fps the height of the racket can be seen every 4 milliseconds.

    What actually happens during the 3-5 milliseconds of ball string contact needs higher speed video than 240 fps. But the racket head position before, during and after impact at 240 fps shows the travel direction.

    If you have a DVR you can watch the racket-ball motion on Tennis Channel using your cable box controller, especially for one of their sharp slow motion shots. For my Motorola controller if I hit the pause button "ll" it stops. If I hit the pause button again then it advances one video frame.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014
    #65
  16. crash1929

    crash1929 Hall of Fame

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    Mr. Lim let me know when you seen the two videos I posted so that we can discuss further.

    What spot are you playing on your HS team?

    How are you doing against 5.0 adults?
     
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  17. Gyswandir

    Gyswandir Rookie

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    Snap?

    Matt, do you keep your wrist passive to have a "release" or do you actively "snap" the wrist when playing a kick serve?

    I used to snap during my junior years and it did work. When I returned to tennis recently, I've adopted the passive wrist, as advocated here. Both seem to work and not really sure which is better. However, the passive wrist requires everything to be right during the swing. If my timing is slightly wrong, then the serve will not hit its mark
     
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  18. dknotty

    dknotty Semi-Pro

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    There is no wrist snap in a technically correct serve. Period.
     
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  19. Maximagq

    Maximagq Banned

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    I don't actively snap the wrist consciously on the kick serve. Then again, my kick serve isn't all that great but it's good enough. But I think it's more off a release thing than an actual snap.
     
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  20. Maximagq

    Maximagq Banned

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    Hey I've been really hella busy so I'm sorry I haven't seen the videos :( I graduated last year and played number one singles all 4 years, and I haven't played 5.0 adult tournaments so I can't tell you that for certain.
     
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