L-Tec "drop" in price

Discussion in 'Strings' started by alidisperanza, Apr 19, 2012.

  1. Wuppy

    Wuppy Professional

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    And I'm still waiting for someone to give me actual physical differences between them. Other than marketers' claims of course.

    Just show me the material spec sheets. If they're largely different in composition and/or manufacturing technique, I will be convinced.

    Looking forward to it :)
     
  2. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    This...isn't true. Yes, kevlar, nylon, poly and co poly are considered "plastics". Your grouping is false because you're saying there is gut and there is plastic, in other words: natural and synthetic. Not quite. Polyamide is a fancy chemistry term. It does describe however, three completely different things as they are all types of polyamides: nylon tennis string, sheep's wool and spider's silk. The same goes for polyester: cutin is a polyester, so you're eating poly whenever you have a salad, or you can string it up in your tennis racquet as Super Smash. Co-poly is the latter form of polyester with certain additional compounds added to yield a desired result. These added materials are too numerous to list. I'll just state it like this: why do you think that people prefer one color of a string to another? They should be identical, no? They're not simply dyed.
     
  3. Wuppy

    Wuppy Professional

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    Well you built up a straw man argument with that sentence and then proceeded to tear it down. Actually I said nothing of the kind. I said there's gut and plastic. Nothing about natural vs. synthetic. I challenge you to point to any parts where I talk about natural vs. synthetic.

    Look, all I want is the material sheets for these strings. Numbers don't lie. Just show me exactly what's in 'em and how much and I'm smart enough to realize the differences (if there are any).

    I don't need some salesman telling me what he wants me to believe. Show me the numbers. Show me the raw data and I'm bright enough to put it together.

    In fact you've inspired my new sig.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  4. fgs

    fgs Hall of Fame

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    dear wuppy,
    you start this "all polys are the same"-thing once again and it is nonsense. i really don't know much about "plastics" but i feel the differences on court - sometimes in pure contradiction to what the manufacturer claims, but that is another story.

    what i can tell you for sure (since i've been in the specialty stainless steel and nickel alloy business for more than 15 years) is that even tiny additions of some metals (for instance 0.2% of yttrium) can change quite dramatically the behaviour of that alloy for instance at high temperature corrosion.

    by analogy, i just think that tiny additions of some additive (you see, nomen est omen), can change the way the "plastic" behaves. also by anaogy from the steel business, i am more than convinced that for instance heat treatment can change the physical properties.

    please be so kind and do a small research into this field and then come back.
     
  5. Wuppy

    Wuppy Professional

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    Can't wait, point me to a place where I can find data on what specific materials are put into specific tennis strings. Let's start with L-Tec strings.. where can I find a list of all the fantastic exotic materials (in addition to plastic) that are in them? I will be happy to research it.

    Waiting...

    EDIT:

    Here's a patent I stumbled across from 20 years ago by Prince for a slightly different manufacturing technique, that's a start:

    http://www.google.com/patents/US5327714

    Which brings me to another point, if these and other manufacturer's strings are so amazing, why aren't they patented?

    EDIT 2:

    Here's another decent patent of a specific plastic wind-angle, only 10 years old, from Gosen:

    http://www.google.com/patents/US6460321
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  6. fgs

    fgs Hall of Fame

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    wuppy,
    i don't care about l-tec strings, i haven't played them yet. some people find their claims obnoxious, some people think they are true - as long as i have not played the string i can't fall in either category. this does not mean that i have my doubts, but that is a different story.

    what you are basically telling me is that i am simply crazy, because i make myself believe that there are differences between let's say msv focus hex 1.23mm and solinco revolution. or kirschbaum pro line II and yonex poly tour.

    the more i think about it i think you are right. a mercedes limo is just about the same as a ferrari - in the end both sport an engine, a steering wheel and four bloody rubber tyres.

    as long as these chemical differences do not have to comply with any standards (as steels and metal alloys have to) it will be pretty difficult to make spec sheets available to the public. some might be even protected by patents. but your all plastic is plastic trip is pretty much wrong, as not everything is the same plastic as not everything is the same steel my friend.
     
  7. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    Yes, all polys are made from plastic, but you definately can't say that they all perform the game, because its the different composition of materials and plastics within them, and the way that they're treated which makes them different - within a range of course.

    For example, Lux Alu Rough is fantastically crisp initially but its dead within 3-4 hours and goes hyper stiff. BHBR is soft and springy, and has a tremendous ability to generate rotations on the ball. Silverstring is low powered, very linear in its elastacity and doesn't have much spin or snap back from the strings. All of that is due to differences in composition and the way that they're made.

    The analogy is with car tires. Yes, they're all made from rubber and silicone but they all perform differently...within a range. Some are soft, some are hard, some have vastly superior ability in straight line braking, dry grip, wet grip, resist aquaplaning etc.

    BS-Tec is just another poly in amongst the crowd. There's absolutely nothing revolutionary about it at all. Just BS propaganda and a small number of gullible, easily led groupies who will believe anything and say anything to perpetuate their fantasy (the 'John Elliot invented BBO' story is particularly priceless)
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  8. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    the problem with you Torres is you admit polys play different among the different brands. But yet you refuse to believe ltec plays well for some of us over whatever strings you use. See the irony?
     
  9. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    There's no irony at all. Your problem is that you cannot comprehend or distinguish differences in examples or analogies. No poly for example plays as well in the 35th hour as it does in the 1st. It well, well, WELL outside the range of what's possible with poly. Only the completely stupid would believe anything otherwise.

    The problem with the gullible groupies is that they're stupid.

    It's like tire manufacturer trying to market a car tire as lasting 100,000 miles and grips better in both the wet and dry than other tire on the market. You would probably buy a load of them upon seeing the advert.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  10. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    who said anything about 35 hours? I didn't. I break my strings within 20. I feel a change at 10. But not like the change that alu has to terrible at 3 hours
     
  11. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Wuppy accuses me of using a straw man fallacy, and then replies with an impossible proof fallacy. To me, what you just said is that until I can provide you with absolute proof, that is, you seeing it happen that a transistor will stop transporting electrons, that you refuse to believe that the computer or phone that you're using has anything to do with semiconductor physics. We, as the general population, cannot provide you with industry secret material. I can't get you the formula for SPPP to compare it to SPP Pure. Even if I could, I wouldn't be allowed to. So, much like the magical electronics analogy, no, we can't give you any material data sheets unless we work for these companies and they choose to let their formulations become public.
     
  12. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I am a string junkie and have tried a lot of strings, but i must agree i did not find anything that special with the l-tec strings. I only tried a couple of sets but there was nothing special, pretty nice feel decent spin but for that price way over hyped.

    I have never found a poly to play great for a very long time, there are some that last longer than others but not by a huge margin. There is nothing like new poly string, i love it for the first few hours and then it is okay for practice,

    But if i am playing a league match i always go with a brand new string job, with that being at the most once a week and stringing myself it is not that expensive if i purchase spools. So i can buy the top polys like lux or bab. rpm team which i am using right now and spend about $9 a week and have the best set up that i could ask for.

    So why would i spend a lot more than that on some snake oil string that needs a certain stringing technique and is not going to play any longer than most other poly strings. And even if it plays a little longer it will never compare to my new fresh job that costs $9 a set!!!!!
     
  13. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    In which case its no different to any other poly. Except that you're silly enough to pay $20 for it and go on $500 stringing course, or string under the mistaken belief that you're using their 'secret sauce' stringing method when they're offical sole distributor specifically says that they haven't even published to anyone who hasn't gone on on the course.

    Placebo brainwashing effect on the groupies at its very, very finest.
     
  14. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Bhbr/ltec 4s is among the best hybrids I have ever tried. Power/control/spin and the heavy pro ball I can hit off both wings.
     
  15. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    THANK YOU!

    (now see if you can un-brainwash the small number of gullible groupies)
     
  16. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    alu is useless for me at 3 hours. I cut it out. I play ltec for 20 till break. It has all the benefits of alu. I didn't pay any money for a stringing course. The seller of ltec gg tennis freely gave me stringing instructions. The same way john Elliot strings. For free. Its posted on their blog.

    any other issues for you?
     
  17. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    lol. Your really desperate to save people
     
  18. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    You're 57 years old. You're not hitting a heavy pro anything.

    You're also strung 4S at 62lbs which is almost 20lbs above what BS-Tec recommend. The whole point of BS-Tec is that they say its specifically designed to work best at Low-Tension....L-T....and that the whole point of L-T...is that you don't pull the string past its optimum point of elastic no return which BS-Tec say is 50lbs and that it DOESN'T work much beyond the 40s, and they say it DEFINITELY DOESN'T work at 62lbs.

    So if you say its the best hybrid you've ever tried, you can't have tried many polys. Unless of course you count your 'cut up pieces of blue straws woven into the stringbed' hybrid....
     
  19. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    how old are you Torres? Post a video of your massive ball you hit.
     
  20. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Nope. You're off as usual. Got my age wrong, and almost everything else as well, except the mouthmanTorees bit. Got that part right! I strung it at 55lbs, except all the perimeters, and they got bumped up. Can hit over 90 off both sides, with my365g h22, with a ton of rpms, and speed gun already proved that. I said it's among the best, not the best. Another thing he misquoted. What a turkey this guy is.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  21. NoobWannabe

    NoobWannabe Rookie

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    This is what I call a classic case of "my beer is better than yours".

    But I will add my 2 cents, after looking at the price of L-tec strings I lol'ed.

    After I checked out the Stringing Method, I lol'ed even harder, more like lolicopter'ed.

    I hit with mostly topspin, I can flat out if I wanted to, I am about a 4.5, I have won 4.5 tournaments before, got into a few finals too, and I played with genesis string, it goes mushy for me after 10-15 hours (not to mention it holds tension pretty well during that time span), I cut it out and restring. Cost me 4-5 bucks a set (fr big reel). I could string myself, but where I live, stringing cost 2 bucks. So after doing the math, L-Tech strings will never be on my list. They oughta re-think their marketing strategy, if they take themselves seriously.
     
  22. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    well, Torres is saving us from 20 bucks a set of strings. Lol.. He is the savior of tennis players. I still think Torres should camp outing front of babolat and or harass Wilson about basalt or something. Maybe his own tv show. "strings.... The truth".
     
  23. tistrapukcipeht

    tistrapukcipeht Professional

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    1- 20 plus shipping

    2- wow, that must be a science class then.

    I get their marketing:

    1-20+ bucks for a set= twice as much as some others, it means they can sell 1 set, spend less time and effort while other companies have to sell 2 sets to make the profit they make in one set, so actually pretty smart business practice, so they smaller sales but that can actually be more lucrative than other companies selling 2 sets of their strings.

    For a small company, that is how they're going to survive against companies like Luxilon and others, only problem is, their strings will not be superior in performance than Luxilon and some others.

    Also, if they're selling to some people than why would they lower the price, people pay for whatever their money's worth.

    There is one guy in my neighborhood using one of them strings so I'll ask him about it, but I'm not paying that much for any polyester string.
     
  24. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    I've signed contracts with thousands of people, and done thousands of jobs. It's the cheap ones who are most likely to be dishonest. The ones who want you to sell your material at the cost you bought it at are the most likely to cheat you. As if they would go to work for the cost of the gas/car/commute they paid! Here is a tip for you guys out there in business: those who don't object to you making a living are the good clients. Those like Torrez who rant/rave about double the mark up are most often the worst humanity has to offer and will not only not pay, but will smear you and try to ruin you with other clients. It's a very simple equation: cheap skate raver=bad person you don't want anything to do with.

    The ltec hybrid bhbr/4s is among the best I've tried, and I got it at half price, as they offered in the beginning. Would I pay $10.65 a half set? No, I would buy a half reel for $122. So what? That half reel gives you 18 hybrid cross sets at 330'. That's $6.77/half set. How cheap do you have to be anyway, to rant/rave so long and loudly over a company that does offer a higher quality string, even if it is not as high as they say? He has not even tried the hybrid, yet rant's/raves all day about it as if he is an expert on it? What does that tell anyone who is objective here? Nothing he says now is trustworthy. A nut job, plain and simple. Anyone in business knows you have to mark up or die. And die you do if you don't make money. It's not just truth, it's food. So shut up or try it, and stop your lying whining. It won't be long before it's listed as the top poly on the stringforum.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  25. tistrapukcipeht

    tistrapukcipeht Professional

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    I can't agree with that.

    It's not because I'm not gonna pay the outrageous price they charge that I am a bad person, what you are not getting is, that what some and I are saying is that there is actually no extra performance for extra price and it is what they claim, therefore deceiving people and making up nonexistent facts.

    I use Yonex strings and doubt there will be much better than that and I have used to use Luxilon, Tecnifibre and Babolat for more than 7 years until last year when I started to try some smaller companies' strings.
     
  26. NoobWannabe

    NoobWannabe Rookie

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    China proves you wrong....
     
  27. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    luxilon does not perform as well as yonex for you. yet you are not here harassing everyone who uses luxilon. your not jumping in every post regarding luxilon and shouting its not worth it.

    Your like of yonex is your opinion just as my like of ltec. I too have used a LOT of poly and settled on Ltec.

    Torres sounds crazy ranting. He never even tried the strings.
     
  28. Readers

    Readers Semi-Pro

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    Luxilon has all the track record they needed and wanted, No.1 string on tour is a fact.
     
  29. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    I tried the os/4s, the 3s/5s, os/gut, bhbr/os, bhbr/4s, bhbr/5s, octo twist/os, ytex quadro/os, ytex quadro/5s, bhb7/os, etc.. My posts relate only to my own experiences. I've burned up over a reel of bhbr testing hybrids, and that is something that did yield a result: the top bhbr hybrid was 4s, and nrg2. bhbr/nrg2 was better for volleys. Bhbr/4s was better for everything else. Blazing spin power/heavy balls, pin point control, if strung right. You can pass through a six inch envelope, and kick it over their heads on seconds.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  30. levy1

    levy1 Hall of Fame

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    Why are these people continuing to post on the forum when they have never used the string. Why are you posting your opinion when you don't have one?
    If you have used the string post up good or bad. The thread is for players looking to try a new string or for us who have used and tested it. Who cares about your opinion if you never tried it. The real posters are the players who have used it or players who want to try a new string.

    I try new strings based on what I read on the forums. I want to hear from players who have used the product not the posers and you are a poser if you have not tested the product!

    I just made a order for Black Mamba even though I am loving the LTec because of some great reviews of this string.

    I thank all of you for sharing your knowledge when you try a string and the rest of you posers can stay off the string threads with you BS.
     
  31. levy1

    levy1 Hall of Fame

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    Now that's a real post from a player who has done his research.
    Thank you
     
  32. levy1

    levy1 Hall of Fame

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    Yes, I loved it but it hurt my arm!
     
  33. levy1

    levy1 Hall of Fame

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    You will have to excuse me after reading your posts. I just remembered I have to spread some manure on my garden!
     
  34. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Hall of Fame

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    have you heard of something called endorsements? you realize if you pay the top players enough, they'll be happy to use your racquet or string!
     
  35. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    There is a man you can listen to. Alu lux hurt someone, what an atypical experience. It is good for control, but not as good as ltec, and does not hold tension as well, and does not let you hit injury free as well. And it costs 75% of the ltec. That's about right.
     
  36. Boricua

    Boricua Hall of Fame

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    ...and VS gut is 43 dollars and people use it eventhough its life is limited.
     
  37. Boricua

    Boricua Hall of Fame

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    ... if all strings were the same everybody would use cheap Gosen synthetic gut
     
  38. alidisperanza

    alidisperanza Hall of Fame

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    Whoah this exploded...


    Win...

    I think the first part of this is more what the original thread was about-- not so much the merits of their advertising campaign. I found it interesting that their initial principal was that there was no compromise becuase their product was claimed to be superior and that now the price is dropping to the "normal" range of upper-market strings.

    As for the second part-- I can't necessarily agree. I've yet to try a set (although I hope to if Arche sends me a set!) but I think PV had a very fair review of the strings. He posted that they were, indeed, above average poly strings and that he had a positive playtest but that for the price/performance ratio, they were not for him.

    Although I don't support their method of marketing, I've never bashed the string, nor do I think I will even if I do try it. In fact, there are very few strings that I have bashed in my history of playtests. What I do anticipate is that I won't find the performance to merit the price (although I can't say for certain until I try it). An example: Babolat VS is an amazing string and one built with clear quality. I will gladly agree that it is superior to the other guts I've tried (obviously within reason) but I don't think that the 42.00 pricetag per set is worth the play. Because of my economic status as a future law student and the frequency with which I pop strings, I gladly take a hit and play with cheaper, lower performing strings. If I do chose to play with gut, 15.00 a set for gut works just fine for me.


    It's clear you've had extensive trials with the string but I find it interesting that although these strings are "designed" to work together, your top hybrid involves a Tourna string. Note; I am not debating the choice of Tourna strings, in fact, I rather like them. I also find it really interesting that your no. 2 hybrid costs about ~11.00 set (out of packages) without all the hoopla; Jus' saying
     
  39. Boricua

    Boricua Hall of Fame

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    I agree that LTEc is silent about their method of making their string and it makes one suspicious that its all marketing but on the contrary, if its really true, wouldnt it be foolish of them to give away the formula to their competitors
     
  40. Korso

    Korso Semi-Pro

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    A price drop is justified. These strings play ok but there is no wow factor. I was eager to try them when they first came out. After hitting for a couple of hours with them, I asked myself why did I not just spend the money on natural gut? They are rough on the shoulder too even when they are strung below 50lbs.
     
  41. Boricua

    Boricua Hall of Fame

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    Maybe we can all send a letter to JE and they will send us a video regarding the process of making LTEC strings:)
     
  42. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    bottom line is nobody will like every string. To come on a specific string thread and constantly harass the people using the string is plain stupid. Torres has an obvious grudge or bias. To call users of ltec mindless is rude. I'm a grown man. 20 bucks is really pennies to me. If I had to worry about 20 bucks in this stage of my life I have bigger worries than what tennis string I use. I use the string because it satisfies my ocd about strings. I string less. Play more.
     
  43. CDestroyer

    CDestroyer Professional

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    Kiteboard,

    How would your favorite hybrid compare to say Bhbr/OGSM? How is it different?

    Thank you.
     
  44. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Og is a cheap syn gut type string that does not hold tens. but feels crisp for a shorter time. More tinny, less powerful, less snap back, does not last as long.
     
  45. CDestroyer

    CDestroyer Professional

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    I just saw the string you used in the cross (the 4s) is a co poly. I was thinking it was a multi or synthetic gut.

    How many hours do you get out of your setup? Tension?
     
  46. jmnk

    jmnk Professional

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    even though I do not believe L-tec hype (or any other for that matter, be it 'cortex', 'Intellifiber' or 'basalt') - this is a very fair view. In the end it is all in one's head, who is one to judge if other player plays better with X just because he believes the X technology is better, or because the technolgy --is-- indeed better.
    As far as string or racket, or tension, or --anything-- testing - I still think they are all biased unless you do a blind test.
     
  47. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    I used the TW University string performance DB L-Tec strings tend to have tension loss numbers about 25% better than other "top" poly's but they also tend to be toward the high range in stiffness. It sounds like it is just a very stiff poly thus it holds tension because it is more difficult to stretch. Also, the recommended "low tension" range is likely related to the stiffness too. L-Tec is very stiff so string it low to avoid tearing off you wrist, elbow and shoulder. Also, it makes sense that it plays well at low tensions due to the stiffness. This is just my guess at what they have done. They made a stiff poly that does not stretch as easy as others. Then, they say string it low to compensate for the stiffness. It kind of makes sense if you can tolerate the stiffness.

    I ordered a set of 17G 0S and will give it a try. I plan to use it as a cross with a multi main.

    I try-ed to dump the TW String Performance DB into this post but am too challenged to figure out how to do it. Could not maintain headings in the table so it became too difficult to read. But here it is for what it is worth.

    Item String Stiffness Total Energy
    (lb/in) Loss Return
    (lbs) (%)
    1 RPM Blast 16 267.5 22.9 89.7
    2 Pro Line II 17 (1.25) 225.7 22.5 90.2
    3 Premium 3S 16L (1.25) 244 17.9 92.5
    4 Premium OS 17 (1.23) 253.2 14.3 93.1
    5 BB ALU Power Rough 125 218.3 22.9 91
    6 Hyperion 17 (1.24) 224 21.4 90.1
    7 Tornado 17 (1.23) 235.5 22.3 91
    8 Black Code 17 256.6 20.1 89.5
    9 Big Hitter Silver Rough 17 217.7 21.2 91
    10 Cyclone 17 208.6 24 89.7

    The tension loss of 0S 1.23 is 14.3%; all other poly's in the list are over 20%. Ths 0S 1.23 stiffness is 253.2 which is the 2nd hi-est in the list behnid RPM 16G (couldn't find RPM 17G in the database). Blackcode 17G is stiff too at 256.6. Volkl Cyclone 17G is soft at 208.6 but tension loss of 24% is very hi.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2012
  48. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    7,543
    Ah, you have hit the nail on the head. Yes, that would be foolish.Howver, absolutely nothing prevents you from telling people what you've done. That's actually how the engineering industry advances. Every single innovation is not a re-invention of something else. It's taking the work of someone before you, and making it cheaper, better performing, smaller, etc. Perfect example is Michelin, who in the consumer world at least, is the top tire manufacturer. They have openly stated throughout the years what their technologies are: dynamic tread blocks, new compound formulations, etc. This tells you NOTHING. It tells you where the industry is headed, and if you want to compete, you better get with it. Why does it tell you nothing? Because Michelin has simply shown you and told you the result.

    The process to create such an innovation is the true secret. Without that, no one can replicate your results. This is why, if you look through Michelin's patent history, their patents are for novel methods and processes, not end results. Unless you can replicate the method, you'll never get their top end product. The same applies to tennis strings. Gamma told the world that they were using radiation to improve the life and playability of their tennis strings. That seems about as revealing as it can get. But how do you do it? Put some Moly99 (beta decay, but whatever) in your extrusion machine? Same applies to L-Tec.

    Telling the world what they've done is called advancing the field. Keeping your trade secrets and patents close and your rival's' patents closer, you end up with innovation. You force people to improve on your result by telling them what you've done, and leave it up to them to make your product obsolete by either making the same thing in a simpler and thus cheaper way, or just making it better all around. Computer graphics cards are another excellent example of this. Single GPU cards are getting faster, but they're not getting hotter. That's how ATi and Nvidia can keep going at it while saying they're the top dog.

    L-Tec has simply said you'll accelerate faster, brake shorter, corner at higher speeds, and get more longevity. They didn't bother telling us why or how.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2012
  49. Boricua

    Boricua Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2011
    Messages:
    3,096
    Maybe LTEC doesnt want a better product from the competition, maybe they want to make the next best product, or it could be mumbo jumbo propaganda, who knows. I for one, will play with them and either enjoy them or make a fool of myself.

    Its like watching a movie because it has great reviews, there is no guarantee youll like the movie unless you see it yourself.
     
  50. levy1

    levy1 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,546
    Location:
    Columbus Ohio
    I have several sets of string ordered from Mamba to see if I can top the OS/4S and confuse more players!
    For the ones who have tried both Mamba and L-Tec do you have a recommendation?
     

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