Lance Armstrong and PEDs

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by ajmack, Jul 4, 2012.

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Do you think Lance Armstrong used performance-enhancing drugs?

  1. Yes

    27 vote(s)
    77.1%
  2. No

    8 vote(s)
    22.9%
  1. ajmack

    ajmack New User

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    I have an ongoing debate with a tennis friend about whether Lance Armstrong took PEDs, engaged in blood doping, etc.
    In a nutshell, he says no, he won't believe it until he tests positive or there is a "smoking gun." He argues the accusations are just "sour grapes" and that no one ever accused Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan or even Roger Federer a few years ago of using steroids or PEDs in general despite each dominating his sport. (A terrible comparison, I might add, since basketball and tennis are more a game of skill while cycling is almost purely an endurance sport.)
    I say you would have to be INCREDIBLY naive to think Armstrong didn't use PEDs and that it was extremely unlikely that a clean cyclist would dominate a sport where drug doping was rampant.

    So, simply put, do you think he did or didn't?
     
    #1
  2. fundrazer

    fundrazer Hall of Fame

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    There are threads on this topic already, but I do believe Lance was using PED's as well as other doping methods.
     
    #2
  3. Agent Orynge

    Agent Orynge Professional

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    You'd have to be incredibly naive to believe that extraordinary circumstances and extraordinary people aren't going to surface every now and again. It's the same phenomenon that drives conspiracy theorists to postulate endlessly, because they just can't take things at face value.
     
    #3
  4. brickner_damage

    brickner_damage Banned

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    PEDS makes you extraordinary, so AO I don't think your argument holds weight..
     
    #4
  5. Agent Orynge

    Agent Orynge Professional

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    Ok, so that's the only circumstance under which somebody could possibly distance themself from their peers?
     
    #5
  6. sonicare

    sonicare Hall of Fame

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    meh..bring your proof or GTFO
     
    #6
  7. gavna

    gavna Hall of Fame

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    Does not matter what we think as There is so much bias and vitriol vs Lance. Fact is he was tested on a regular basis for years and trust me EVERYONE was gunning for him and looking to nail him and prove he had cheat...other teams, the Press, different cycling federations, Hell even the US Govt went after him (they still lost in court! Hahaha).....it goes on. Now years later another sample somehow shows some signs that doping may have occurred? I hope Lance and his team go after the USADA with a vengeance.
     
    #7
  8. TripleB

    TripleB Hall of Fame

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    The only PEDs Armstrong used was PEDALs...and he turned them faster than anyone, therefore he beat their tails!!!

    This is America...you are innocent until proven guilty...whether you are Lance Armstrong or George Zimmerman :mrgreen:.

    TripleB
     
    #8
  9. Agent Orynge

    Agent Orynge Professional

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    Oh god... let's not go there.
     
    #9
  10. volleygirl

    volleygirl Semi-Pro

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    Lance will publicly act like hes going after the USADA but wants nothing to do with taking them to court. He will act like the baseball players who Jose Canseco kept exposing as cheaters, in that they denied cheating and ripped Canseco as a sham yet not ONE of them ever sued him because they knew in the long run that he was 100% correct. Armstrong is a cheater.
     
    #10
  11. Dedans Penthouse

    Dedans Penthouse Hall of Fame

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    Finally!!! .... a Lance Armstrong thread...


    Long overdue
     
    #11
  12. fundrazer

    fundrazer Hall of Fame

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    What more proof do you want? He has tested positive before, despite what he always says. I believe it was samples from the 2001 Tour de Suisse. Many of his former teammates such as Tyler Hamilton came out and claimed that Lance as well as the entire US Postal Team was doping. There is his famed affiliation with the notorious Dr. Ferrari. Really, what more do you want?
     
    #12
  13. NickC

    NickC Professional

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    Every time he said "test me" they did, and the sample came back negative. So there's that. I personally think he used PEDs, (biking 200+ miles uphill every day for a month? Definitely not possible without some kind of supplement) but every time he was tested he produced a negative sample. There's that whole thing about double jeopardy and whatnot.

    He probably did them like I said, but he was smart enough to not get caught. It's not breaking a rule if you know how avoid getting caught breaking it.
     
    #13
  14. volleygirl

    volleygirl Semi-Pro

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    Thats what OJ said genius
     
    #14
  15. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    you mean gyges
     
    #15
  16. NickC

    NickC Professional

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    I wouldn't know that, I was only 3 or 4 when he was tried. Nice to see he agrees with me, though.
     
    #16
  17. Wilson 1986

    Wilson 1986 Rookie

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    from what I found, he and his team mates were involved in blood doping. or having blood taken out and then put back in later.
    exactly what this does I have no idea, I didn't read that much in to the issue.
    I don't think he actually took any performance enhancing drugs though, it was just blood doping.
    even though that is bad enough.
     
    #17
  18. stringertom

    stringertom G.O.A.T.

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    Forget LA...my new cycling hero is Johnny "Barbed Wire" Hoogerland! That fall into the fence last year and his WILLPOWER to get up and finish the stage with cuts that required 33 stitches is beyond human!

    As a PS, NBC is carrying the Tour de France LIVE right now in EDT time zone. Ironically, they are riding through Switzerland. One of the commentators stated Fabio Cancellara (sp?) is actually the Swiss national sports hero. Really?
     
    #18
  19. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I doubt that it's even possible to be competitive at the TDF without PED's.
     
    #19
  20. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    Severe mixed emotions: as others pointed out, many don't want to admit that someone extraordinary can exist among we mortals; he's passed countless tests; his accusers are a rag tag lot of bitter guys with money woes; WADA and USADA have taken a good cause - cleaning up sport - and gone completely batsh*t crazy.

    On the flipside, that sport is KNOWN to be dirty (as opposed to the clowns who show up here and postulate that tennis is corrupt on the Agassi meth thing - non-PED and a few journeymen losers) - so it is hard to believe he was a bastion of Purity surrounded by dopers.

    A lot of people just don't want to believe it. Cancer survivor does great. Nice story. Makes people feel good; wear those yellow bands around your wrist...
     
    #20
  21. BHiC

    BHiC Rookie

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    Well, the fact that the government lost in court doesn't really mean much. Didn't they also lose in the trials of Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens? If they can't win against guys who most people accept did use steroids, than I don't see how they stand a chance against someone who the general public is still on the fence about.
     
    #21
  22. fundrazer

    fundrazer Hall of Fame

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    Lol @ gavna. Rumor has it that many current riders and some other cycling figures are receiving 6 month suspensions and are testifying against Lance. Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters, George Hincapie, Dave Zabriske (I think). Lance's old buddy Bruyneel is also off hiding because he knows that people have finally gotten wise to their act.
     
    #22
  23. firefox

    firefox Semi-Pro

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    Doping charge just got dropped. The king is still the king. :twisted:
     
    #23
  24. fundrazer

    fundrazer Hall of Fame

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    ^^Are you sure? From what I'm reading a judge dismissed Lance's lawsuit against the USADA.
     
    #24
  25. firefox

    firefox Semi-Pro

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    My bad! haha my hearing aid is busted. :)
     
    #25
  26. gavna

    gavna Hall of Fame

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    What happend is the brief submitted by Armstrongs lawyers was over 80 pages long and the judge (Sam Sparks) told them to pare it down. In effect they gave to much information and the judge wants only pointed facts.......he dismissed and they will resubmit sometime today again in Austin. The judge was pretty funny in his response:

    "This Court is not inclined to indulge Armstrong’s desire for publicity, self-aggrandizement, or vilification of Defendants, by sifting through 80 mostly unnecessary pages in search of the few kernels of factual material relevant to his claims," Sparks wrote.

    Big Tex's lawyer Tim Herman responded:

    Herman acknowledged the wordiness of the complaint.

    "It was too long and it contained unnecessary factual content," Herman said. "When Judge Sparks speaks, I listen." Armstrong’s attorneys plan to boil down what the initial complaint requested — a permanent injunction, legal fees and "further equitable relief" that Armstrong may be entitled. The original motion called USADA’s investigation a "kangaroo court" with hand-picked arbitrators and no rules to allow Armstrong’s lawyers to cross-examine witnesses.



    This is going to be fun........
     
    #26
  27. Mongolmike

    Mongolmike Professional

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    Not to side-track, but I still have a problem with the U.S. govt/congress being involved. The sporting sanctioning bodies... absolutely, but congressional hearings? Please... find something helpful to do.
    (I've got no problem with the judicial side being involved, its more the legislative side that has no business in this or baseball or pro wrestling or any other sport IMO.)
     
    #27
  28. volleygirl

    volleygirl Semi-Pro

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    The king doesnt have the pull I guess he thought he had
     
    #28
  29. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Innocent until proven guilty is simply a procedural rule despite its grandiose formulation. It simply means the prosecution has the burden of proving its case.

    This puts the defense in a better position, but the overwhelming number of defendants get convicted whatever rule is used.

    Zimmerman is rotting in jail under accusation and Armstrong has been accused by some sort of sports tribunal.

    So they're not exactly innocent nor are they guilty. A massive brief will be lodged and they will have to cast doubt on the contentions contained therein.

    Its because we now know there is a massive brief against Armstrong that makes his case an interesting one to discuss.



     
    #29
  30. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Its usually because large sums of public money subsidizes sport that government is involved.

    And the US did invent the war on drugs and it is a political war.



     
    #30
  31. Setmatch45

    Setmatch45 Rookie

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    I think most use ped's. They should make them legal and be done with it.
     
    #31
  32. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    When youre six foot three and weigh 150 pounds and ride several thousand kilometers you need all the help you can get.
     
    #32
  33. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    The whole thing is dumb. Cycling is a sport based around the use of performance enhancing drugs. I mean up until the 1960s, the sport accepted their usage. It wasn't a shock at all. And now I think something like 90% or more of the winners of the major events in the last decade have all tested positive at one point or another. It is getting to the point of lunacy.

    Leave Cycling alone. Just like Bodybuilding. We all know they dope. Nobody gives a crap. Let the best and most efficient doper win.

    But these complaints are from a bunch of dopers (who got caught) who claim that Lance Armstrong doped better than they did?

    So a bunch of caught cheaters claiming that another guy cheated and didn't get caught. Great. LOL.
     
    #33
  34. volleygirl

    volleygirl Semi-Pro

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    Always amazed when a dope just wants all the athletes to be able to cheat all they want. You want to tell the guys and women who dont want to cheat that "its tough **** that you dont have a chance to compete."
     
    #34
  35. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    everyone knows that they have to dope to compete at the highest level. in any sport.

    its basic game theory
     
    #35
  36. volleygirl

    volleygirl Semi-Pro

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    r2, I hope thats not right and i can remember when I was little, everyone ripping and rooting against the Russians and East Germans in the Olympics because they were supposedly all cheating and our athletes were doing it the right way. Now it seems a good pct. of our athletes in most sports have chosen to cheat as well.
     
    #36
  37. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    we were all cheating then too, but the russians and east germans were just better at it (mainly because they took more risks....and paid for it later)

    2006 Former East German athletes are awarded monetary compensation in December for health problems resulting from the doping experiments of the 1970s and '80s. Each of the 167 former athletes receives $12,210 and agrees to halt legal action. The money comes from the German Olympic Sports Union, the German federal government and Jenapharm, the pharmaceuticals company that produced many of the drugs.



    http://www.anabolicsmall.com/roida3a.htm

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/magazine/03/11/steroid.timeline/index.html

    now the playing field is pretty even.

    can you imagine if drugs were really removed from olympic competition. we'd see the equilalent of 45 homers instead of 75 homers a year.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2012
    #37
  38. Andreas1965

    Andreas1965 Rookie

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    I'm a former bicycle racer, performed on high semi-professional level. It is the bitter truth that only a few years ago one couldn't compete with the elite riders without taking drugs.
    Today something seems to have changed, there is some evidence shown by the declining performance of the riders in the last week of the Grand Tours (Giro, TDF, Vuelta). They seem to be more troubled than a decade ago when it gets really steep or long. Recovery after tough stages seems to be harder.

    That is just a hint, but there's hope. Still, it might be impossible to be competitive without juicing.

    One can definitely master a TDF without taking drugs. Me and some friends rode all mountain stages of the Giro d'Italia of 2009 within a week last year. It was manageable, but our pace declined from day to day and we certainly had a slower average speed than the pros.
    Each year we go to Italy in may and ride bike for 2 weeks without any rest days. We usually ride about 150-180 km per day in the hills or mountains. After that you definitely need a few days rest, but it is possible. And let me assure you, we do not ride with recreational speed!

    The question is: will the audiences accept looking at a peloton going 5 km/hour slower? Or is it a permanent chase after breaking the records year by year? Will there be the applause, if Usain Bolt would win the 100 meters in London with 10.00 seconds?

    We all need to accept that if we want a clean sport, wether cycling, or soccer, or track anf field or.... then we won't see another world record for a long, long time. Looking at a soccer team running all over the field, attacking for 90 (or 120) minutes without showing significant wear and tear and doing this for a whole tournament... well that must induce some afterthoughts ;)
     
    #38
  39. maverick66

    maverick66 Hall of Fame

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    Something we in the west dont like to admit. But none of our guys where running on just Wheaties. Its just how sports go since drugs got involved. I can remember one guy I wish I could recall his name saying to know who has the best pharmacy look at the winners they paid more or found the better team.
     
    #39
  40. cjj14u

    cjj14u New User

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    This whole thing is not looking good for Pharmstrong.......

    Couldn't happen to a nicer guy......
     
    #40

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