Lance Armstrong

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by FastFreddy, Sep 8, 2008.

  1. FastFreddy

    FastFreddy Semi-Pro

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    I just heard Lance is coming back to cycling in 2009 and will race 5 races in 2009 including the Tour De France. He will ride for Johan Bruynel with Team Astana. Sweet I can't wait for Lance to win his eighth Tour.
     
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  2. MLoutch

    MLoutch Rookie

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    the report came from Velonews - no one on Lance's side has confirmed -

    Jeez why?? he is already the greatest Tour rider and has nothing to prove - unless he wants to prove to all he was and has been clean (at least as clean as possible in that sport) -

    And the level of competition is kinda low - no great riders who dominate - if this happens i need to go buy a bunch of TREK stock asap.
     
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  3. Deuce

    Deuce Banned

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    I wonder if he's returning because he misses the element of competition... or because he misses the fame and the glory.

    Usually in these cases, it's unfortunately very much the latter.
     
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  4. Duzza

    Duzza Legend

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    He always looked so humble I doubt he'd be back for some more money and fame. That's my question actually, whats the average prizemoney for a top cyclist? inc. sponsors?
     
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  5. hollywood9826

    hollywood9826 Semi-Pro

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    lance always came off on me like kinda a conceited A-hole. But i doubt hes doin it for money. But he always seemed like he thought poeple should worship him, and now they are not hes gettin po'd about it. To him Fame and glory does not equal money, he just misses havin evrybody kiss his but all the time. Plus he raced that race up in colorado and got trounced by that guy, now he needs to prove himself to the world again. Only this time he can't get cancer and a two year waiver allowing him to use all the drugs in the world.
     
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  6. OrangeOne

    OrangeOne Legend

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    So I'm guessing you mean earnings? (ie. Prizemoney + Sponsorship + Salary?). I'd think many of the top 100-200 road cyclists would be pulling in low-6 figures, and going up from there. Rumours were that Cadel Evans is on a couple of million a year all up from memory.

    Lance would fall into the Federer category, ie. a category that is so detached from the rest of the sport that it wouldn't even be comparable to the rest. (It'd be interesting to know, but I'd think right now Nadal is probably sitting in a void somewhere between the "normal" deals and the "Federer" deals).

    He's worth squillions, he is an all-time-great (on a Federer / Woods scale), he's put in huge hours and effort for charity and in cycling terms he's a god. I'd assume he's A-list wherever and whenever he chooses. Add in the fact that if he ever felt under-worshiped - all he'd have to do - for the rest of his life - is simply show his face at any cycling race anywhere on the planet and he'd get all the worship anyone could ever want.

    Are you somehow jealous of his success...

    ....as well as seriously bitter and twisted?
     
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  7. hollywood9826

    hollywood9826 Semi-Pro

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    You mention Woods and Federer, both of who do not come off to me as arrogant jerks.

    Armstrong is in fact an arrogant jerk. Right in the Mold of Cal Ripken Jr and Don Mattingly. Those guys are so conceited they expect stuff done for them just because of who they are.


    I am not the first person who has accusded Lance of using Illegal PEDs. Atually a guy wrote a whole book about, and numerous newspaper articles and testimony from poeple who claimed to witness him use them. All Lamce did was sue them for slander, attack them as phonies and call them liars. And instead of actually takin them to court to settle the issues and prove them wrong, he would later drop the cases when nobody would pay attention to it.
     
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  8. FloridaAG

    FloridaAG Professional

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    Interesting indeed - the team he is joining was banned from competing in this year's tour because of previous doping incidents. Also interesting is that Contador - the winner of the 07 tour and Leipheimer another contender are already on the team - I am sure they are super excited about Armstrong joining the team (not)
     
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  9. tacoben

    tacoben Semi-Pro

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    I always looked forward to the part in the Tour de France where they were in the mountains, where Lance would take apart the whole field. The one downside he had was that he only targeted "the Tour", which kind of made him one dimensional. He never really went after the one day classics like Parix Roubaix, or the other tours like the Tour of Italy, Spain. Eddy Merckx did all of them and then some. To me, Eddy is still at the top in Cycling history.
     
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  10. CanadianChic

    CanadianChic Hall of Fame

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    There is nothing more sad than watching a former world number one come out of retirement (how many months has it been now) and fail to achieve greatness. I hope he stays retired for his reputation and peace of mind.
     
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  11. Ignorant Genius

    Ignorant Genius Banned

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    I recall reading a few years ago that Woods was unapproachable to most other golfers on the tour. He had a small circle of friends and pretty much froze everyone else out. Some of it might have been jealousy on the part of other golfers who felt Woods gets special treatment from tournament organizers and the PGA, but who knows for sure.

    I've never heard anything about Federer being a jerk.

    Armstrong is definitely a control freak and is very demanding of his teammates. Some of the "expects stuff to be done for him attitude" comes from the way pro cycling teams are structured. There is a definite team leader on each team and the rest of the team is there to support him and help him win races....it's their job to do things for him.


    There have been countless accusations and absolutely zero proof. He's been possibly the most medically scrutinized cyclist ever and there has been zero proof that he has done anything wrong.

    Innocent until proven guilty and there are plenty of cyclists (and other athletes) that have been caught and found guilty over the years.
     
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  12. Ignorant Genius

    Ignorant Genius Banned

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    Armstrong raced in lots of other races and was very successful. Take a look at his career achievements and there is no doubt he is the greatest cyclist of all time.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Armstrong
     
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  13. OrangeOne

    OrangeOne Legend

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    There is nothing more sad than regretting missed opportunity!

    We're not talking about Pat Cash trying to come back for the 53rd time here, after he'd dropped and dropped through the rankings anyways. We're talking about a genetically gifted athlete in a genetically-dependant sport here, and someone who left at the top approx 2 years ago.

    If he assembles the right team (he will) and things go well, he'll be the favourite for the tour.

    Reputation - how does having another crack change things? It doesn't. He could come last 10 times and it doesn't change the fact he won it 7 times in a row.

    Peace of mind - I'd bet he's more at peace when he's competing, and if he has another go or 2 he'll love every second of it.

    Side-note: Thanks to Ignorant Genius for replying above, saved me the time, nice reply.
     
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  14. FastFreddy

    FastFreddy Semi-Pro

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    Drugs

    Confirmed,

    The reason Lance is coming back is his ego and he is bored with dating hollywood stars and running marathons. Yeah I know hes doing it for cancer wink wink. Also Landis is coming back maybe Lance and Landis got some new drugs that will not show up postive on a drug test Landis got busted two years ago he should use what Lance is using. As you all know Lance as never tested postive that what he claims.
    He is dirty for sure my friend raced pro over in Europe and said you must take drugs to just keep up with the pack never mind winning the race all past winners have been dirty Lemond said he never did drugs I think he even took a little something. Maybe he doesn't count re using his own blood in blood doping.
     
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  15. Swissv2

    Swissv2 Hall of Fame

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    Seems fake.

    Link to a resource, please.
     
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  16. Tallahassee_Technifibre

    Tallahassee_Technifibre Rookie

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    Hes coming back, I just don't no why i just don't like him though. I respect what he does but it not "iron man sport" imo. It just seems like people over exaggerate when they say best athlete ever.
    I mean sure i respect that he came back after cancer and all but just because it's a feel good story doesn't make it more impressive than tiger woods or some one of that magnitude.
     
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  17. J-man

    J-man Hall of Fame

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    I support Lance Armstrong and I am a fan. But enough is enough. I hate it when an athlete leaves a sport and then when everyone has moved on they comeback.
     
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  18. Ignorant Genius

    Ignorant Genius Banned

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    The Tour de France is widely recognized as the most physically demanding sporting event in the world. To have won it as many times as Armstrong did is amazing. People who don't understand cycling just don't have an appreciation for how impressive Armstrong's accomplishments are.
     
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  19. hollywood9826

    hollywood9826 Semi-Pro

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    But bike riding is a one dimensional ability. You either have greater EPO, blood doped endurance than the other guy.

    And yes Lance was the best EPO blood doped endurance bicycle racer in the world. But I have to put him way down on the list claiming him as the greatest athelete in the world.

    The are numerous other futbol, football, baseball, basketball, ice hockey, filed hockey, tennis, and whatever other sport I can think of that you need and have to be a better athelete tan to race bikes.

    And yes without the cancer part he would never become as popular and god like to the american media.
     
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  20. OrangeOne

    OrangeOne Legend

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    Unfounded. One of the most tested athletes in the world. Never positive for drugs. (Amazing what you can say sitting behind a keyboard to criticise a man who has done so much...).

    Seems your level of comprehension of massive & repeated achievement is low. Time to go watch some more TV?
     
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  21. Ignorant Genius

    Ignorant Genius Banned

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    What part of never a positive test don't you understand?

    And yes Lance was the best EPO blood doped endurance bicycle racer in the world. But I have to put him way down on the list claiming him as the greatest athelete in the world.

    And yes without the cancer part he would never become as popular and god like to the american media.[/QUOTE]

    Wow.......nice. The guy has raised millions of dollars for cancer research and you want to trash him for it.
     
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  22. hollywood9826

    hollywood9826 Semi-Pro

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    You dont need speed agility, and hand eye coordination to ride a bike. You dont need feel and touch to ride a bike. You need to do one thing really good.

    Barry Bonds was blasted and accused of being a cheating drug user and he never tested positive. Lance never positive just like barry never tested ositive.

    But in Lances case numerous people have come forth and admitted witnessing him saying he used a plethora of drugs. Yet the public let him off the hook because he was a good guy and survived cancer.

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5508863

    They couldnt test EPO in 99 but they have taested samples with matching number signed by lance later and 6 of them tested for EPO

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0824/p04s01-woeu.html

    I would say my claims are more tha founded.

    In all these cases Lance pulled the Roger Clemens and sued the reporters and anyone else saying these things. Only to drop these cases later down the road when he rep was still salvaged.

    I will stay Lance Armstrong is not the gretest athelete in the world and never was. Michael Jordan was great, David Robinson was great. Gretzky, Lemiux, Federer, Nadal, Sampras, A-Rod, Pujols, Rickey Henderson, Ronaldo, and Ronaldinho are all greater atheletes than Lance Armstrong.
     
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  23. hollywood9826

    hollywood9826 Semi-Pro

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    Thats the problem, people are letting this cancer thing cloud thier judgement.

    Barry Bonds has never tested positive, Nor has Clemens.

    There is more acusations and evidence about lance than exits on barry.
     
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  24. FloridaAG

    FloridaAG Professional

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    For what they are worth (not much) these are my 2 cents:

    1. I think these cyclists are unbelieveable athletes - what they do is incredible to me - whether drug assisted or not -

    2. I think there is a high chance that Lance doped -

    3. Personally - I think he is a deuche-bag - the cancer research is great but in his personal life - very scummy guy -
     
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  25. tacoben

    tacoben Semi-Pro

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    I beg to differ...I think Lance would look up to Eddy any day. But you know what, they are actually very good friends. Eddy respects Lance because he rode like him..with the "take no prisoners" attitude. I got to meet Eddy once in a Bike shop in Berkeley California, where I live. My cousin drew a picture (copied from an old Black and white photo) of him when he was with the Festina team. When I presented it to him to sign, he smiled and asked his manager to look and admire the picture as well. He then asked for my name and signed the picture addressed to me. He also gave me an autograph picture of a bottle and bike hat and shook my hands in thanks. To me, Eddy is like the Babe Ruth of cycling.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_Merckx
     
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  26. hollywood9826

    hollywood9826 Semi-Pro

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    I agree with you here on all three. To be at the top of any sport you have to be an unbelivable athlete. But I dont think cyclists require the same amount of athletism than that required by other sports.
     
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  27. njohnson

    njohnson New User

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    Oh come on, he won the hardest bike race in the world 7 times in a row ahead of some of the other greatest cyclists of all time. You obviously have no clue about cycling at all and you obviously didn't see him recover after being dehydrated or after his fall. Like the guy or not personally he is a machine.

    It is next to impossible to compare all sports directly because if they were comparable they wouldn't be different. How can you compare a hockey player, cyclist, tennis player, etc when they are all totally different.

    Maybe the only way would be to have Lance Armstrong, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretsky, Michael Phelps, etc all get together and play their respective sports and see who does the best in each but that ain't happening so the debate goes on.
     
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  28. OrangeOne

    OrangeOne Legend

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    So you've never ridden a bike, certainly never raced a bike (given racing at the elite levels is the issue here, not cruising around your local trailer-park), perhaps never even watched televised bike racing?

    Any post that starts with the above gets written off by me as complete rubbish. You don't need speed agility to race a bike? Rubbish. Have you ever tried descending at 60+ mph? Have you ever tried doing that with someone a few metres in front of you and the same again for dozens of people behind you? Whilst wearing only lycra? You don't have a clue.

    Hand-eye coordination isn't required? What about when sprinting for a finish, with 20 or 30 people within millimetres of each other at 40+ mph? What about when cruising in a 200 person bunch with everyone almost leaning on each other, tyres an inch apart at 40mph? No hand eye coord required then? Rubbish.

    Feel and touch aren't issues? Ever tried to do a trackstand on 20mm tyres? While your feet are clipped in? Stopping for a minute at a set of lights, let alone stopping on a steep-banked surface and waiting to race? How about accelerating on the absolute edge in a time-trial, cornering so hard that a 1% mistake could (and often does) equal crashing and permanent injury? The penalties for missing a cornering line are much, much higher physically than missing a line on a passing shot....
     
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  29. Ignorant Genius

    Ignorant Genius Banned

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    Hollywood doesn't understand cycling at all. That much is obvious. Good points above, but most people who don't understand cycling wouldn't "get it".

    And someone tell Hollywood that the "positive" test samples on Lance were all done by French agencies who had labled him a "cheater" before they ever conducted a single test. And then there's the fact that none of the tests were official, at least some of them were done secretly, in private and basic test protocols to insure accuracy were blatantly ignored. Other than that, sure, the tests prove he's guilty. :rolleyes:
     
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  30. Julieta

    Julieta Guest

    The Tour was kind of a bore fest without Lance. I don't care if he juices or not, he is exciting to watch. If i were him though I'd spend some major cash on personal security and not do any training in France. I'm not even sure I'd go to Spain. I think I'd train in Colombia or somewhere off the beaten path.
     
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  31. FloridaAG

    FloridaAG Professional

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    I think the Tour is actually more interesting without him (and has been the last few years) -

    I find cycling very interesting and impressive -

    Whether he doped or not - certainly it has not proven although it certainly seems more likely than not to me
     
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  32. snowslider

    snowslider New User

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    Besides tennis, biking is my other great passion in life. I've followed Lance's career from way back in the day. While I'm a big fan of his, I do not think he's the greatest cyclist of all time. That honor would certainly go to Eddy Merckx.

    My understanding of Lance's comeback is that he will donate his winnings to charity. I don't think he was upset at finishing second to Dave Weins at the Leadville 100 race. Finishing second to Weins at Leadville is quite an accomplishment. That is a 100 mile mountain bike race that is mostly at 10,000 feet elevation. I would not be surprised if Lances goes with Astana due to his long relationship with Johann Bruyneel and TREK. Lance is very loyal to those who stick by him.

    Oh and to the person who said the TdF is the toughest sporting event in the world, I'd argue that the Giro de Italia is a tougher cycling event but doesn't have the coverage in the states that the TdF does.
     
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  33. FastFreddy

    FastFreddy Semi-Pro

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    Dirty

    I think all cycling and all sports should make drugs legal since 90% of them are on it anyway. It would be fun the team car would pull up to the rider and give him a shot in the arm. Next would take off up the hill like he had two hearts and whoever went the fastest without dropping dead would win(like bodybuilding).

    I would like to see Lance's heart pop right out of his chest and fall over and die. This guy never won crap before he got cancer.

    You don't start as a loser and get cancer then win 7 Tours. He didn't even finish the tour the year before he got sick. Plus he was busted calling Dr Ferrari (Drug Doctor) Lance called Eddy Merckx and asked Eddy if the Doctor would work with him. Then all of a sudden Lance starting winning, why would Lance need his help anyway he has a team Doctor and a personal coach Chris I guess the team doctor and Chris are not drug experts.

    I was a big fan of Eddy Merckx not anymore since, I am sure he took drugs like the rest of them. I wonder how far back in time we have to go to find someone in any sport that won without drugs. Maybe I watch bowling since they just drink beer and eat and get fatter.
     
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  34. Ignorant Genius

    Ignorant Genius Banned

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    You can argue all you want but that doesn't change the fact that experts and cyclists all view the Tour de France as the most difficult sporting event.
     
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  35. snowslider

    snowslider New User

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    WOW are you misinformed. Perhaps you shouldn't comment without checking your "facts". Lance won the U.S. amateur championship in 1991. In '93 he was ranked #1 in the world - winning 10 one day races. He also won the World Road Race Championship and a stage of the TdF that year. He also collected the Thrift Drug "Triple Crown of Cycling", which included three separate races: the Thrift Drug Classic in Pittsburgh, the K-Mart West Virginia Classic, and the CoreStates USPRO National Championship in Philadelphia. Thrift Drug said it would award $1 million to any rider winning all 3 races, a feat which had never previously been done. In 1994 he again won the Thrift Drug Classic, and came in second in the Tour Dupont, Clásica San Sebastián and Liège - Bastogne - Liège. In 1995 he won the Clásica San Sebastián and the Tour Du Pont. He also took a handful of stage victories in Europe and the U.S.

    But you're right, he didn't win anything before cancer :rolleyes:
     
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  36. FastFreddy

    FastFreddy Semi-Pro

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    I knew you would bring up those one day US crappy races. Eddy Merckx won Europes best one day races. Those races Lance won are not even close to the same level in Europe. Big fish in a little pond. Hey Lance is on gentic dopping is the way to go.
     
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  37. Colpo

    Colpo Professional

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    You sound very informed about pro cycling and Lance's career. Why do you think that for all his obvious ambition Lance refrained from consistently riding in the traditional European "Classics" as well as the other great tours in Italy and Spain? Guys like Fignon, Indurain, Hinault, and Merckx routinely did that, like it was part of the job. My understanding, and this could be an anti-Lance bias, is that Lance is borderline top-20 cyclists of all time because of his limited resume, esentially beeatch-making the Tour for himself at the expense of every other race of significance (Merckx is #1). Americans are always surprised to hear this, that Lance's 7 Tour wins aren't all that important to the Euro cycling intelligentsia because Lance was a one-race specialist. Just curious.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2008
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  38. Ignorant Genius

    Ignorant Genius Banned

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    A couple of points -

    The other great tours are (obviously) all in Europe. Armstrong didn't want to spend the entire cycling season living in Europe. I believe he's stated that more than once in interviews.

    The "Euro cycling intelligentsia"? :rolleyes:

    Cyclists from the US are hated by many Europeans and Lance is the most hated of all....because he dominated the single most important event in cycling and broke the records of favorite sons while doing so.

    Borderline top 20? That's hilarious. He's top 3 without a doubt and arguably the greatest ever.
     
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  39. snowslider

    snowslider New User

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    Ummmmm, actually in '93 Lance was ranked #1 in the WORLD. Not the US, the WORLD. Stop a moment and let that sink in. Oh, by the way, both Clásica San Sebastián and Liège - Bastogne - Liège are EUROPEAN races. In fact, highly rated ones at that. Stop a moment and let that sink in.


    Look, I'm not some Lance fluffer. In my mind he's at #3 all time on the scale of greatest cyclists. I'm just tired of hearing all the Lance haters go on and on recycling the same half-truths and untruths.

    What, exactly, is gentEtic dopping? Are you just making stuff up now?
     
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  40. FastFreddy

    FastFreddy Semi-Pro

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    Riding Dirty

    1993 started cheating back then you stop wake up one day and start cheating once a cheat all ways a cheat. Lance couldn't climb nor time trial he gets cancer then becomes super human sounds like a fair tale more like alot of drugs. Fast foward to 1999 all of a sudden he became super fit thanks to Dr Ferrari and now he's the best climber in the world and best time trial rider. The cost of genetic doping is not costly. A article from USCD said you could split the cost between 12 riders to bring the cost down. I am sure Lance can afford it on his own there is almost no way to detect it.

    You would have to exam under a mircoscope muscle bio to the exact injection site to bust him It's not going to happen any time soon. The cost of blood test are high enough most races cheap out and go urine only. I hope they save Lance blood and urine samples and as soon as the testing catches up then they will strip his TDF wins one by one like Landis. Lance should go back to dating Hollywood chicks he's good at that.
     
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  41. hollywood9826

    hollywood9826 Semi-Pro

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    Freddy I like the title of your above post, but shouldnt it read

    "Ridin' Dirty" ?

    I dont and never will understand how lance got a pass on the US Media not approaching/questioning all the reports, dispuutes, evidence, and first person eyewitness accounts to Lance and his PED usage.

    The guy was always an A-hole. His wife satys by his side through all the cancer. As soon as he hits it big he ditches her butt for sheryl crow, and as soon as crow gets cancer he ditches her butt for some other broad. The guy is the epitome of A-Hole. But I guess hes an A-Hole who wont use undetecable (at that time) substances. And yes they tested his samples (and others) 5 years after the fact in attemping to find a reliable test for EPO. 6 of lances samlpes came back positive.

    Again Lance was the most dominate man in a sport where all were doin that. my issue is not meant to discredit his accomplishments against his competition, as much as it is with everybody idolizing the man cuz he had cancer. Claiming him as the greatest athelete in the world, when he participates in a sport that america really does not care about all that much. All the while ignoring all the claims of his chemically enhanced state.
     
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  42. njohnson

    njohnson New User

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    He didn't win in his first years because there were already some dominant established cyclists such as Miguel Indurain who won 3 of his tours in Lance's first years. Of course Lance didn't win right from the start, you rarely do, look at how Indurain went from nowhere to a 5 time winner.

    Here are Miguel Indurain's records in the tour as a comparison:
    1985: Withdrew, 4th stage
    1986: Withdrew, 8th stage
    1987: 97th
    1988: 47th
    1989: 17th
    1990: 10th
    1991: 1st
    1992: 1st
    1993: 1st
    1994: 1st
    1995: 1st
    1996: 11th


    I just realized that all the cyclists who finished second or third in the tour during Lance's years have been in a drug scandal, Zulle, Ullrich, Kloden, Basso, Pantani, Beloki, Rumšas, Zabel, and Vinokourov.
     
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  43. FastFreddy

    FastFreddy Semi-Pro

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    Generation Raced Dirty

    Lance said the following in cyclingnews.com I'm not going to cheat in 2001; I'm not going to cheat in 2009. What happened to all the other races pre 2001 what never happened? I guess when you have cancer you get a pass to take all the drugs you want. Miguel is the grandfather of epo as you listed his TDR race results. Epo came out in the early 90's I am sure he was one of the first cyclist to take it. Looking at his results you can se he would have never won the tour without epo. Funny isn't that all the guys Lance beat were busted for drugs Lance is just smarter for hiring Dr Ferrari. I like when they explain Lance is winning because he pedals at a higher rpm than other riders. Last time I checked everyone rides between 90 and 110 rpm what a bunch of bs.
     
    #43
  44. OrangeOne

    OrangeOne Legend

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    While most of the above is almost incomprehensible, the last sentences show you don't really understand cycling. Lance's climbing cadence was/is higher than many of his contemporaries, esp. Ullrich. It means, if nothing else, that he is better placed to respond to attacks when climbing.
     
    #44
  45. FastFreddy

    FastFreddy Semi-Pro

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    Dope

    Ullrich is not a good example of a pure climber. He's a low rpm big gear grinder. He goes up hills around 80 rpm. I rode and raced road bikes for 23 years so don't give me that line of crap. The pirate was a pure climber.
     
    #45
  46. Ignorant Genius

    Ignorant Genius Banned

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    A bottomless pit
    Armstrong's most unusual attribute may be his low lactate levels. During intense training, the levels of most racers range from 12 μL/kg to as much as 20 μL/kg; Armstrong is below 6 μL/kg. This ability of lactate removal is most likely attributable to many years of hard training. Therefore, lactic acid buildup (or acidosis) does not occur as easily in his body. Acidosis, and lactate in general, does not cause fatigue but is a good, testable, marker for the cause of muscular fatigue — muscle cell depolarization. Some have theorized that his high pedaling cadence is designed to take advantage of this low lactate level. In contrast, other cyclists rely on their power to push a larger gear at a lower rate.
     
    #46
  47. FastFreddy

    FastFreddy Semi-Pro

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    Genetic doping

    Check this out, the fatigue blocking drug thread under general pro player discussion board talked about lowering your lactate levels super low almost zero amount with this new genetic doping drug. Well new to us not to Lance since he has super low lactate levels I bet he has been on this gear and I am sure alot of tennis players would like to almost never get tired during a match. I am sure he will have new gear that will not ever come up postive on any test. Always staying ahead of the testers. It has a link for more info on the drug and how it works.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2008
    #47

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