Laver #2

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Chopin, Mar 23, 2012.

  1. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Other than semantics plays, can you throw in any valuable opinion on tennis?

    Just to prove for a minute that you ever saw a tennis match...
     
  2. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Which is the name of the college Carsomyr:) attends? I´ll make sure NOT to bring my kids there, since their Semantics teacher is a very lousy one...and I also have serious doubts about his amths teacher, too...
     
  3. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    calendar Grand Slam??? there is only one GRANDS SLAM, and, yes, it is what you call CALNEDAR GRAND SLAM (this is a term invented by *******s, who in thie way want to disguisse their hero´s failure at winning the only GS )
     
  4. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    He was a top 5-6 pro even in the 60´s.That puts him in the top 10 if you mix up pros and ams.
     
  5. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    They are great players, I am not denying that.But they shouldn´t be at their best if some middle class journeyman like Haas surpasses them and moves to nº 2...

    On grass, Pecci reached a Queen´s Club final, beating great A Ashe and pulling off a set from John Mc Enroe.Davidenkho wouldn´t even in his wet dreams...and he, of course, wouldn´t even dream of beating Gerulaitis in any court if Vitas just played 60% of his best tennis.

    He would be a joke against all of those guys, well, I´ll give to you that he would beat Mc namara,Clerc and Gottfried on hard, they were never good hard courters, but never on grass.

    and 1980 Lendl, at age 20 reached the Masters finals and won the Davis Cup, beating argentinian´s Clerc and Vilas at their soil...he had scored a big win over Borg at Basle ( and a second one at Toronto , but I don´t count it after Borg retiresd in the second set)...WOULD DAVIDENKHO, EVEN AT HIS PEAK EVER DREAM OF BEATING BORG?

    Again, I have dismantled one by one all your aguments.Keep trying tough, it´s fun.
     
  6. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Carsomyr, the perfect tennis clueless, is posting on this forum to improve his semantics as well as his maths.Given his pathetic level at those subjects and the obvious unability of his rookie college teacher to do the job, he has given him some homework to do, which he is fulfilling over here.
     
  7. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    ha ha ha, what a JOKE .....

    I said except Lendl , can't you even read ?????? I also mentioned Lendl on grass specifically. He was already good on other surfaces in 1980, but had to improve quite a bit on grass .....

    If davydenko at his peak can beat federer , his worst matchup, twice in a row , YEC 2009, doha 2010, he sure can beat borg on HC (since borg wasn't even close to federer on HC ) .... Davydenko is 6-1 vs nadal on HC as well .... But your highness, the Clueless doesn't know that ....... he's also beaten the likes of Djoker, Murray, delpo on HC .....

    again, all you are doing is showing us all time and again, how clueless you are and that you are a hypocrite .... providing a shining example of how the limits of stupidity can be stretched
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
  8. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    TMF, surely, by now, it's clear that I don't care how other people use the term. If other people use it in incorrectly, then they are "wrong." BTW, I didn't scream, you did.
     
  9. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Even a past his prime Gonzales could beat the very best. In February 1970, with Laver at the peak of his powers, a 41 year old Gonzales beat Laver 7–5, 3–6, 2–6, 6–3, 6–2 in a $10,000 winner takes all match in Madison Square Garden. It's like Agassi today beating Djokovic by the same score in a winner takes all money match. Of course, Agassi is long retired while Gonzales was still in the top 10 when he beat Laver in 1970.

    We have no way of knowing really, since Emerson constantly turned down the chance to turn professional until finally doing so in early 1968. When players like Gonzales, Rosewall and Laver turned professional, their games went up to another level. By the time Emerson turned professional, he was already slightly past his prime, his prime being around 1961-1965.

    I believe Laver won 38 and Gonzales won 21.

    Gonzales was the best player in 1952, and was utterly dominant from 1954-1959, barring a scare from Hoad on their 1958 tour, where Hoad led 18-9 at one stage before Gonzales came back to win 51-36.

    Gonzales hugely scaled back his tournament play in 1960, but dominated the World Series tours before going into semi-retirement. Gonzales played a few more tournaments in 1961 (including winning the US Pro for the 8th time in 9 years). In 1962, I don't think Gonzales played at all as he was in retirement and Rosewall became the top player. Gonzales started returning in a few tournaments in 1963 and increased his schedule a lot in 1964, but was past his prime by this stage, although still capable of rolling back the years on his day.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
  10. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    In 1964 Gonzalez was very strong, not the level of Laver and Rosewall but still excellent. He may have been the third best pro in 1964 and possibly the third best in the world. Gonzalez lost to Laver in a fantastic match in horrible weather conditions in the final of the US Pro that year. They said the shotmaking was amazing in that match.
     
  11. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    LOL. Some of this posts are hilarious. A 41 yr old Gonzalez is some type of a geek god while Agassi at 35 is old, broken down man.

    I can't imagine any player at 41 yr old competing against the top players today. It could be murder !
     
  12. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    of course, but you'd take prime Djoker on an average over Gonzales of the mid to late 60s, right ? My point ....


    which is why I said comparison becomes difficult
     
  13. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    With the amount of tennis played on hardcourts these days, you're probably right. If players were playing on grass, clay, indoor carpet or indoor wood and much less on hardcourt, like they did in Gonzales' day, players' careers would last longer.
     
  14. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    You're just different from everyone else so speak for yourself, OK?
     
  15. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    It required more athleticism, speed, stamina, fitness, reflex. I don't believe a player at 41 can keep up with players in their 20s. Maybe it's fine in the old days when the game was less demanding.
     
  16. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Less demanding? Maybe on the joints due to much less hardcourts, but tennis players weren't even permitted to sit down at the change of ends in matches until 1973-74. A 41 year old Gonzales was also involved in that legendary match with Pasarell at 1969 Wimbledon, which saw demands for tiebreaks to be introduced into tennis. Yes, prior to the early 1970s, every single set had to be played on at 5-5 until a player won by 2 clear games. Is this less demanding?
     
  17. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    if you believe that tennis in the 60´s was less demanding than just get out of this discussion quietly. you don´t know nothing of the history of our sport
     
  18. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I understand your rage.I´d also feel like you if any factual data is refused by
    stroner factual data...
     
  19. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Not just that.At 45 Gonzales was beating the likes of Connors and Borg...
     
  20. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Not to mention travel conditions ( players themshelves rented cars and crossed the US back and forth to make it in time at the many pro stops), training conditions, court conditions ( wood, roads - yes roads-, parkings) and many other things.

    If Fed or Nadal were asked to do that, they would certainly quit tenis.
     
  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I thought it was already clear to seasoned tv fans that HE DOESN´T ANYTHING ABOUT THE SPORT.
     
  22. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    I should note that Budge won his grand slam in 1938 without playing a really tough opponent. His toughest match was against an 18 year-old Jar Drobny in the Czechoslovakian final, not a slam event at all.
     
  23. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    rage ? I'm laughing time and again at your cluelessness.

    Factual data says davydenko beat federer, his worst matchup , on HC twice. Factual data says federer won 9 HC slams to Borg's zero.

    Factual data says nadal won 2 HC slams to borg's zero
    Factual data says davydenko leads him 6-1 on HC

    => davydenko has every chance of beating borg on HC

    yet clueless kiki's logic suggests davydenko can't beat borg on HC :roll:
     
  24. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Borg only played 4 majors on hardcourt, and reached the final in 3 of them, losing to Connors and McEnroe in those 3 finals, while Tanner beat Borg in the quarter finals in the other one.
     
  25. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    Mustard , I know that very well ..... I was just ridiculing kiki.

    Borg of course was the better HC player than davydenko ...

    But to suggest that davydenko would have no chance vs him on HC is well purely laughable ....especially when he leads the lefty version of borg 6-1 on HC :)
     
  26. Chopin

    Chopin Hall of Fame

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    Amazing that this thread could produce 24 pages and counting.
     
  27. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    what would be amazing about it? people endlessly debating the same old points without ever adding something new or original to the discussion?
    that´s not amazing, that´s simply human nature
     
  28. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    To defeat Borg on any court, you need a special weapon, a shot above normal standarts...did Davidhenko ever got one? he is a kind of new Solomon or new Dibbs.Very consistent, very good retriever but won on consistency and Borg was the perfect definition of consistency...
     
  29. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    yeah¡ why not debate presidential elections one by one since WWII...still Obamatards would be bringing up the same clueless opinions...Human Nature, as you said.

    What do you bring in here ?
     
  30. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    It is becoming more and more obvious Fed and Nadal, no matter how many titles win, have played in a weak era and cannot claim GOAT status because being completley owned in the majors by nadal (when Fed peaked) and Djokovic ( when Nadal peaks).We´ll see how many majors will Djoko win, and, more important than that, if he is or not owned by a guy that would deny him any possibility tom fight for GOAT status.

    Laver,Borg,Kramer,Budge,Tilden,Gonzales,Sampras were never owned in that insane way, and that is why they are LEGITIM GOAT candidates....
     
  31. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    clueless...... davydenko is more similar to agassi/kafelnikov rather than solomon/dibbs.

    You think he was winning vs Rafael Nadal, I repeat Rafael Nadal , based only on consistency ??????

    He is 6-1 vs him on HC

    Jeez, he was winning based on his RoS, taking the ball early and his defense - all 3 of which are way above normal standards btw ...

    But then its obvious you haven't watched him play like ever ...... Totally clueless as ever, Kiki ......
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2012
  32. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    Laver played in the weakest era of all ...playing all midgets ....., lucky that Hoad was injured so often ....

    Kramer's achievements aren't enough ...

    Borg retired early . cowaaaaaaard ..

    sampras couldn't play on clay

    tilden played in an era of very less depth

    budge's achievements aren't enough

    gonzales was lucky to be not facing the full fields and not to have more matches on clay , lucky that Hoad was injured so often


    see how easy it is to denigrate any player, clueless Kiki ?
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2012
  33. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    my opinion sometimes, though it´s probably not controversial enough to get much of a feedback:)
    sometimes i´m angered by a mindless remark or when people confuse their opinions with facts
    mostly though i´m amused
     
  34. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    IMO, It's problematic to state that one player would beat, or can't beat, another as a substitute to express your opinion that one player is better than another. I don't think any informed observer would say that Davydenko could never beat Borg on HC. The question is, who would have the winning record between them on HC. Again, IMO, clearly Borg is the far greater champion, Davydenko has never been a major champion, and would almost certainly have a winning record against Davydenko on any surface.
     
  35. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Well , I really tried to watch some action from him.But you are right, I never ended his matches...I would fall asleep after 30 minutes or so...:-?
     
  36. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes, your argumentation is absolutely impeccable...as always.Your knowledge of any given player fits in just one sentence, as proved in this post...kid, try another sport, tennis is a mistery to you.
     
  37. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I just laugh when Fed and Nadal are put in any of the first 2 or 3 tiers for GOAT considerations...they are the nº 1 players that have been more often owned by thsoe considered their successors.It never happened to laver,Hoad,Borg,Sampras,Kramer,Tilden,Budge or Gonzales.Those deserve being considered for the first 2-3 tiers...
     
  38. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    that's exactly what Kiki said. So we are in agreement that Kiki is clueless ???? :)

    one would think that ... its logical as Borg is of course the greater champion. But then so is Nadal .... yet he trails him 1-6 on HC .... Some things are just an issue of matchup ....
     
  39. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    Basically that's true for you in case of any modern match as you are still immersed in your Laver era worship => you are totally clueless about modern day tennis and anything you said about it deserves to be treated with absolute contempt especially considering your hopeless myopic Laver driven agenda . End of story ...
     
  40. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    I just laugh big time when Laver is put in discussion for the GOAT ..... He was being beaten up left, right by Hoad when he joined the pros. But then Hoad was affected by injuries ...... Gonzales while still being well past his best also managed to beat him several times ... Imagine what a prime Gonzales would've done to him on the fast surfaces ??? :lol:

    Basically the luckiest champion of all time , Rod Laver ....
     
  41. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I watched many matches, some even live, involving Sampras,Kuerten,Hewitt,Agassi,Safin,Nadal,Federer.Delpo and Djokovic,just less, but still, and I never was interested in the upper or middle class journeymanship, which certainly includes Ferrer,Davidenkho,Murray,Fish,Tsonga and...sorry for breaking your heart, Tommy Haas.

    yes, Haas was no great champion, you clueless.
     
  42. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    no, you haven't watched any matches from the present era and that much is obvious from your posts ......

    and yes, Haas was no great champion, clueless Kiki, I know that .....No need to repeat it ....

    But of course you find time to pump up the likes of Drysdale and Ralston ..... LOL :lol:
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2012
  43. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Haas would give half his ass to make a major final...which Ralston and Drysdale did...and they were upper class journeyman of that era.
     
  44. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    Obviously considering you never watched any of tsonga, davydenko, murray, haas etc play ( and obv have no interest in their records ) you have zero right to be commenting about them as you have zero idea of how they play and how good they are ... Any comments from you regarding them is just coming out of your Laver worship and trying to put down every other era ...
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2012
  45. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    yes, they made finals in a hopelessly weak amateur field .... Haas would be making multiple major finals in that field, not just one ....
     
  46. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I Have seen those players.Murray, think he got great potential but something is wrong with him.the others are good but fall behind.
     
  47. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Actually, Dennis Ralston was a physical specimen, a beast, who was expected to be the next Jack Kramer or Pancho Gonzales. But, he had a terrible temper which held him back from being the best he could have been. IMO, Ralston was a more natrually gifted player and athlete than Murray or Tsonga. I have some great pics of Ralston in action. Maybe I'll find time to post them.

    Cliff Drysdale was also a great player. Not a major champion, but, a threat to anyone he played, with a big serve and a great 2hb. He was particularly troublesome for Rosewall. I had the privilege of seeing him win WCT event in the 70's.
     
  48. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Ralston himself was one of the handsome eight Hunt signed in for the first ever WCT tour.

    BTW, almost all top players signed for WCTin the early 70´s...but still, there were names in that circuit whose background or merit is completely unknowm by me.Tom leonard,Roy Barth,Tom Edlefsen were regular WCT players.Were they NCAA champions or something like that? how comes they joined the Hunt´s very selective club?
     
  49. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Anybody´s FINALLY hanging up the 1972 Dallas match?
     
  50. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    What about the match?
     

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