Laver #2

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Chopin, Mar 23, 2012.

  1. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Correct on the technicality.
    But that avoids the issue.
    Budge skipped this event for no good reason, perhaps because he wanted to avoid a loss to Vines in a big event, just prior to Vines' retirement.
     
  2. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Remember the Handsome Eight, the first WCT group? well, rumours had it that everybody was calling them The Seven Handsome+Tony Roche.
     
  3. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I agree with you, looks loike it was one your Newcombe and the successive year Roche...I think both retired around 1978.Roche lost the AO semis to Vilas that year, if I recall properly and beat a young Mc Enroe at Queen´s.Newcombe won the WCT Sant Louis event and made it to the Wimbledon fourth round but that´s it.
     
  4. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    I'm sorry but I can't see how this affects our original topic, which was the correct H2H tally of the first Budge-Vines tour. You obviously think poorly of Budge's decision to withdraw from the US Pro, a topic which I'm not interested in (not now anyway). How does his decision help us understand the correct tally from a tour that took place months before?

    If you have a specific argument linking the two events, please state it directly.
     
  5. Dan Lobb

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    Again, you are mixing two different issues.
    I guess you do not want to talk about the Budge withdrawal. It makes Budge appear unsporting.
    As we discussed earlier, the injury to Vines (just try to serve with pulled side muscles) coincided (some coincidence!) with Budge's winning streak of five or six matches. This was the difference in the series.
    Is this clear enough?
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2012
  6. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Dan, I sincerely have little to no interest in whether Budge appeared unsporting or not. If he was unsporting, so what? It doesn't matter to me, and how does it impact the H2H count of a tour that took place months before? That's the question I asked and you have not given me a connection between the US Pro and the spring tour.

    Let me go with this for the sake of argument. How does Budge's unsporting withdrawal from the US Pro impact our understanding of the spring tour?

    And you're giving the wrong numbers above: Vines lost at most 4 matches to this injury -- possibly fewer, because we don't exactly when he was injured. So it's misleading to say that that injury coincided with the full 6-match losing streak: it implies that Vines was injured for as many as 6 matches, and that Budge won as many as 6 matches due to an injury by Vines.
     
  7. Dan Lobb

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    Budge won the spring tour. And the European tour.
    Did he want his record diminished and his commerciability reduced by losing the final of the only major tournament of the year to Vines, who would then retire, leaving Budge unable to restore himself against Vines?
    The answer is obvious, but today no player would skip a major from simple weariness. He would skip a warmup tournament, sleep hard, and come ready to play in the major.
    Olmedo claimed that his losses to Fraser in the 1959 Davis Cup and Forest Hills final were caused by playing too much to satisfy the US team officials. But he showed up anyway, and took his lumps.
    Hoad was overtennised in the European tour of 1959. Gonzales rested and skipped this portion of the season. Hoad took his lumps in Europe, and finished the season strongly in Australia.
    Budge looks silly by comparison.
    We cannot interview Vines today, but he talked to Kramer, who suggests that the injury caused the difference. Pulled muscles take some time to heal, and the recovery is not straightline.
     
  8. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    So you've brought up Budge's withdrawal, not as way to help understand the spring tour, but simply because you want to compared unfavorably to other greats. Fine, go right ahead: Budge's reasons for withdrawing have no bearing on what the actual H2H was against Vines.

    What you're doing is the reverse: you think that because Budge won the spring tour, he didn't want to tarnish his record with a loss. Yes, entirely possible. Does not help us understand what the H2H was in the spring tour.

    Pulled muscles do take time to heal. But Vines broke his losing streak by beating Budge 3 times in a row. He wasn't struggling slowly to get back in the thing; he was right back in it. Only 6 days after Vines broke his losing streak, I have a report saying that his serve won him a match in Miami Beach; a couple of days after that, his “cannonball service” was one of “the chief characteristics” of a match in Palm Beach.
     
  9. Dan Lobb

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    Let's consider another POSSIBILITY (not fact).
    Athletes with muscle pain can show up to play, look great, and then collapse in pain that same night.
    How is this possible? With a helpful physician or medical person and a needle and some pain killer.
    I am not saying that this actually happened, merely that it has sometimes happened. I know for sure that it happened in professional ice hockey.
    Perhaps Vines just took a few aspirin. I don't know. But it is no surprise when a recovering athlete suddenly looks good for a few hours. With a pulled muscle, it could happen.
     
  10. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Vines did more than show up looking good for a few hours. He showed up consistently serving aces -- as many as 30 in one match -- for the remainder of the tour.
     
  11. Dan Lobb

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    In the 1964 Stanley Cup finals, Red Kelly played all 14 of the postseason games for the Leafs with knee injections before each game.
    One player describes how upsetting it was to watch him after each game, with a needle sticking out of his knee joint, in great pain. The fans were completely unaware of the truth.
    Athletes can make great sacrifices to win.
     
  12. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    So, who is the Lew Hoad of the NHL? My choice is Bobby Orr.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2012
  13. Dan Lobb

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    Good choice, one which I have often thought of.
    Both players had about ten years of play, both had serious injuries, and both reached the highest level of brilliance in their respective sport.
    Another example might be Gale Sayers, who probably had the best moves in the NFL. Again, an injury-shortened career.
    Hoad's injury, unlike the others, was self-inflicted, caused by a poor training exercise.
     
  14. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Now, coming back to topic...who was better, Newco or Roche?

    prime Newc beat prime Roche at Wimbledon 1969 and AO 1975 while prime Tony beat Newco at FH 69 and W 68...I don´t think that dispute has ever been settled down...

    Finally, IMO, the word is to Laver...whom did he fear mostly? He beat Roche at USO 69 And Newcombe at W 69...both were fighting to be Laver´s heritiers, so which one was the Laver´s heritier?
     
  15. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Newcombe was better, in my opinion, but Laver feared Roche more because he was another left-hander.
     
  16. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    while both and Ashe ( and maybe Nastase) were the true rivals for Laver hegemony,at the end of his reign, it is very hard to decide which one was better, both at their peaks...in fact, Newcombe took a set off Rocket at W and Roche did so at FH....I´d really like to hear what Laver said about them and then, maybe, decide...

    BTW, a clue...Laver talks much more about Roche that he talks about Newcombe...but, then agai, Laver felt closer to farmer Roche than Urban Newk, so...
     
  17. Pete M.

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    I prefer Roche personally but the fact Laver put Newcombe on 10 place of his all time greats (past champions) can be an indicator of what he thinks.
     
  18. kiki

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    my op, and this is just pure feeling, absolutely personal, is that Newcombe was a bit more predictable than Roche, but he was also tougher in his mind...and the fact that Laver´s top foe, Rosewall, was close to Newcombe, may have given Rocket more thought on Newcombe than on Roche...
     
  19. BobbyOne

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    Newcombe only became a world's Co. No1 in 1970 when Roche's arm troubles began.

    Newcombe never troubled Laver as much as Roche did in 1969.

    Laver and Rosewall have a better hth against Newcombe than against Roche...
     
  20. BobbyOne

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    Maybe Laver referred to Newcombe's greater achievements than Roche had and not to who was as stronger opponent against him. But in Hoad's case Rocket yet referred to Lew's peak instead of his career achievements.
     
  21. kiki

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  22. BobbyOne

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    Roche was much closer to Rosewall than Newcombe was. Rosewall trails 7:9 against Roche but leads 14:10 against Newcombe.
     
  23. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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  24. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    ...I compared them to the King, Laver not to Rosewall...
     
  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Anyhow, very few posters have the knowledge about Newco and Roche, who was better at their peak...it really is interesting since both, plus Nastase and Ashe were dominating the transition era between Laver/Rosewall and Borg/Connors.

    Smith,Okker,richey and Kodes were very good players but not as talented as those 4...and, IMo, after the Laver/Hoad/Gonzo/Rosewall foursome, and before Lendl/Borg/Mac/connors, the quator of Newcombe/Ashe/Nasty/Roche is fantastic...don´t you think so?
     
  26. Dan Lobb

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    Hoad's career achievements are frequently misunderstood and underrated. Laver was better aware of them than most tennis experts.
     
  27. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Incidentally Bobby Orr, in the 1970-71 NHL season had a plus-minus rating of 124, the highest in NHL history.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1fMcTq8Esk
     
  28. Dan Lobb

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    Orr is generally regarded as the most naturally gifted hockey player ever, and Hoad is generally regarded as the most naturally gifted tennis player ever. Both had their record-breaking years shortened by injury.
    Orr's peak lasted from about 1968 to 1972, while Hoad's was about 1956 to 1960. Almost the same duration of peak form, and terminated by injury in the final year of the periods.
     
  29. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    If memory serves, I believe Orr had a higher combined plus minus rating in his short career than Gretzky had in his much longer career. That is astounding considering the caliber of player Gretzky was. I could be wrong.

    Ediit. I was right. See below.

    http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/g/gretzwa01.html

    http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/o/orrbo01.html
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2012

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