Laver #2

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Chopin, Mar 23, 2012.

  1. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Popularity wise, yes. Quality food, no. But Fed is popular and has quality. Anyway, the players are not rated by popularity, and if it was instead of quality, Laver might be ahead of Federer. Since it's about grand slam performance, results and other achievements, Fed is ahead. There's no reason for a fuss...Laver is #2, not that he was placed at #10. That's a great honor.
     
  2. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    TMF,

    Can I ask you a question? Do you ever find any flaws in Federer? I find flaws in every player.

    I just would find it refreshing for once if you wrote something that doesn't praise Federer.

    I'll write a negative comment about Laver. He could net his forehand volley more than he should.
     
  3. Carsomyr

    Carsomyr Hall of Fame

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    Not sure if the first two are really blemishes; Laver had pretty significant wins over Rosewall and was far and away the best player in the 60s; can't expect a guy to dominate multiple decades, can you?

    However, your last point is interesting. Don't know how much weight it lends toward an argument against Laver's candidacy of GOAT, but it does make Gonzales' assessment of his peak over Laver's all the more plausible.

    While not a blemish, per se, it is also interesting to note that during Laver's Grand Slam campaign, Australians made up a whopping 42% of seeded players. Conversely, 40 years later, when Federer was just two sets from the Grand Slam, the most represented country in the top 16 seeds was Spain, who accounted for half 1969's mark with 21%.
     
  4. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    All these Australians are in the top 100 of Tennis Channel or top 50 men. I would assume, they would be seeded today. Don't know how many current Spaniards are on this list, despite the favoring of recent players.
     
  5. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Fair enough. I just thought I should mention that Rosewall did beat Laver in a lot of big finals even though Laver pretty much dominated their head-to-head from 1964 onwards.

    I mean Laver's performances in the majors post-1969. I'm talking about the early 1970s mainly. Laver's loss to Roger Taylor at 1970 Wimbledon is one of the biggest upsets ever seen at Wimbledon. Laver's best result in a major after 1969 was one quarter final, at 1971 Wimbledon, despite Laver winning over 20 tournaments in 1970-1971. That's a "blemish", however big or small one wishes to make it.
     
  6. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I´ll help you out - just for nothing-

    Second flaw: was ugly
     
  7. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    So What?

    Seeded players are the best players, and it makes no difference where they come or not¡¡¡¡
     
  8. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    TMF´s family name is...Vavrinec.He can´t find any flaw at Roger.
     
  9. Carsomyr

    Carsomyr Hall of Fame

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    When you have more and more tennis players emerging from more and more countries, it suggests that the game has more depth as a much wider group of people have access to tennis facilities and resources.
     
  10. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Exactly! "Popularity wise" Federer is the greatest tennis player of all time. "[Tennis] quality wise" he may not be. See how easy that was, PMS?
     
  11. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    His left forearm was a bit freakish looking!
     
  12. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I can think of a few. His volley technique sucks, he chops the ball, and his net game is weak compared to other all time great net players. His topspin backhand is a bit irratic and he chops his underspin so much that he has little margin for error. How's that?
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2012
  13. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Keeo your horses¡ Laver being beaten at Wimbledon is, of course an upset.But little praise has been poure dover a man that was both a W and FH semifinalist, Roger Taylor.

    So, it is more of a surprise for Laver being beaten before the finals ( he never lost a Wimbledon final, not like Borg or Federer and much alike Sampras), but not because it was a solid top 15 player like Taylor who beat him...
     
  14. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    But, depth doesn't necessarily make the quality at the top better. For example, for decades, baseball writers and fans have complained that league expansion has diluted the quality of the game and bloated batting statistics allowing for more starting pitchers that, otherwise, aren't good enough to play in the major leagues.
     
  15. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Thta´s a false argument in itself, as I posted before.If you talk me about top 100, top 500, top 1000 players in the world, I´d say you may be right.But, top 20-30 players, it is a matter of quality.a guy like, say, Stolle or Pilic, to name a second setringer, has won majors or at least reached major finals...now, take Tipsarevic or Fish...the comparative is just so ridiculous that any seasoned tennis fan would laugh his/her ass off...
     
  16. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I wonder if Laver had gone into boxing instead of tennis...he might have been one of the all time middleweight greats, like Hagler,Leonard and Hearns¡¡¡
     
  17. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Of course every player has flaws. My post never implied that certain player is perfect, but it's about accomplishment.:|
     
  18. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Learn how to read old man.
     
  19. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    And you too...pay attention. TTC is not rating on popularity, but total Grand Slam titles, performances, ranking, records, etc.

    You can argue Borg and Laver is more popular than Fed in their respective era, but that's another topic.
     
  20. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Losing in the early round is far worse than losing in the final.
     
  21. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    You are not going to convince the old-timers because they can't accept the truth. However you are absolutely correct.
     
  22. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Funny - or sad- thing about Rosewall is that he was a natural left hander, but his dad made him play with the right hand, because, back then, left handers were not " right".He used to say that he still had more power with his left hand and he would have gotten a better first serve.Conclusion is that a left handed serving Rosewall would have had a harder serve and that is, according to him, what he lacked to be Wimbledon champion.So, Rosewall can blame his dad he is not a Wimbly champio...would he still have had the same precision if being a lefty?

    maybe, a left handed Rosewall would now be the undisputed GOAT...
     
  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    LAVER WAS NEVER OWNED.NOT LIKE MR VAVRINEC.
     
  24. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    As I said, and none of you newtards has come with a response, imagine US splits into 51 countries.Would Californian Sampras beat US Sampras? would New Yorks Mc Enroe be a better player than US Mc Enroe?

    C´mon guys, I am waiting...
     
  25. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    It's all about competing against the entire field. And since Laver had a smaller field, for him losing in the early round is even more worse.
     
  26. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    NONSENSE.

    1969 Australian Open

    There are over half of the players from Aussie representing this slam event. Did Aussie was split into 50 different countries ??

    Not to mention it's a smaller draw with Laver only have to win 5 matches instead of 7 today.

    I rest my case.
     
  27. Nadal_Power

    Nadal_Power Semi-Pro

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    I think we had ''entire field'' in stupid Indian Wells and Miami tournaments.. how many good matches you saw there?

    We had 8 from 10 best players in the world in Dubai.. again, nothing good
     
  28. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Here are the records of Federer, Borg and Laver:

    Roger Federer
    1999 French Open: Round of 128 Loser
    1999 Wimbledon: Round of 128 Loser
    2000 Australian Open: Round of 32 Loser
    2000 French Open: Round of 16 Loser
    2000 Wimbledon: Round of 128 Loser
    2000 US Open: Round of 32 Loser
    2001 Australian Open: Round of 32 Loser
    2001 French Open: Quarter Final Loser
    2001 Wimbledon: Quarter Final Loser
    2001 US Open: Round of 16 Loser
    2002 Australian Open: Round of 16 Loser
    2002 French Open: Round of 128 Loser
    2002 Wimbledon: Round of 128 Loser
    2002 US Open: Round of 16 Loser
    2003 Australian Open: Round of 16 Loser
    2003 French Open: Round of 128 Loser
    2003 Wimbledon: CHAMPION
    2003 US Open: Round of 16 Loser
    2004 Australian Open: CHAMPION
    2004 French Open: Round of 32 Loser
    2004 Wimbledon: CHAMPION
    2004 US Open: CHAMPION
    2005 Australian Open: Semi Final Loser
    2005 French Open: Semi Final Loser
    2005 Wimbledon: CHAMPION
    2005 US Open: CHAMPION
    2006 Australian Open: CHAMPION
    2006 French Open: Runner-up
    2006 Wimbledon: CHAMPION
    2006 US Open: CHAMPION
    2007 Australian Open: CHAMPION
    2007 French Open: Runner-up
    2007 Wimbledon: CHAMPION
    2007 US Open: CHAMPION
    2008 Australian Open: Semi Final Loser
    2008 French Open: Runner-up
    2008 Wimbledon: Runner-up
    2008 US Open: CHAMPION
    2009 Australian Open: Runner-up
    2009 French Open: CHAMPION
    2009 Wimbledon: CHAMPION
    2009 US Open: Runner-up
    2010 Australian Open: CHAMPION
    2010 French Open: Quarter Final Loser
    2010 Wimbledon: Quarter Final Loser
    2010 US Open: Semi Final Loser
    2011 Australian Open: Semi Final Loser
    2011 French Open: Runner-up
    2011 Wimbledon: Quarter Final Loser
    2011 US Open: Semi Final Loser
    2012 Australian Open: Semi Final Loser


    Bjorn Borg
    1973 French Open: Round of 16 Loser

    1973 Wimbledon: Quarter Final Loser
    1973 US Open: Round of 16 Loser
    1974 Australian Open: Round of 16 Loser
    1974 French Open: CHAMPION
    1974 Wimbledon: Round of 32 Loser
    1974 US Open: Round of 64 Loser
    1975 French Open: CHAMPION
    1975 Wimbledon: Quarter Final Loser
    1975 US Open: Semi Final Loser
    1976 French Open: Quarter Final Loser
    1976 Wimbledon: CHAMPION
    1976 US Open: Runner-up
    1977 Wimbledon: CHAMPION
    1977 US Open: Round of 16 Loser
    1978 French Open: CHAMPION
    1978 Wimbledon: CHAMPION
    1978 US Open: Runner-up
    1979 French Open: CHAMPION
    1979 Wimbledon: CHAMPION
    1979 US Open: Quarter Final Loser
    1980 French Open: CHAMPION
    1980 Wimbledon: CHAMPION
    1980 US Open: Runner-up
    1981 French Open: CHAMPION
    1981 Wimbledon: Runner-up
    1981 US Open: Runner-up


    Rod Laver
    1956 Australian Championships: Round of 32 Loser
    1956 French Championships: Round of 128 Loser
    1956 Wimbledon: Round of 128 Loser
    1956 US Championships: Round of 128 Loser
    1957 Australian Championships: Round of 32 Loser
    1958 Australian Championships: Round of 16 Loser
    1958 French Championships: Round of 64 Loser
    1958 Wimbledon: Round of 32 Loser
    1958 US Championships: Round of 16 Loser
    1959 Australian Championships: Round of 16 Loser
    1959 French Championships: Round of 32 Loser
    1959 Wimbledon: Runner-up
    1959 US Championships: Quarter Final Loser
    1960 Australian Championships: CHAMPION
    1960 French Championships: Round of 32 Loser
    1960 Wimbledon: Runner-up
    1960 US Championships: Runner-up
    1961 Australian Championships: Runner-up
    1961 French Championships: Semi Final Loser
    1961 Wimbledon: CHAMPION
    1961 US Championships: Runner-up
    1962 Australian Championships: CHAMPION
    1962 French Championships: CHAMPION
    1962 Wimbledon: CHAMPION
    1962 US Championships: CHAMPION
    1963 French Pro: Runner-up
    1963 Wembley Pro: Quarter Final Loser
    1963 US Pro: Runner-up
    1964 French Pro: Runner-up
    1964 Wembley Pro: CHAMPION
    1964 US Pro: CHAMPION
    1965 French Pro: Runner-up
    1965 Wembley Pro: CHAMPION
    1965 US Pro: Runner-up
    1966 French Pro: Runner-up
    1966 Wembley Pro: CHAMPION
    1966 US Pro: CHAMPION
    1967 French Pro: CHAMPION
    1967 Wembley Pro: CHAMPION
    1967 US Pro: CHAMPION
    1967 Wimbledon Pro: CHAMPION
    1968 French Open: Runner-up
    1968 Wimbledon: CHAMPION
    1968 US Open: Round of 16 Loser
    1969 Australian Open: CHAMPION
    1969 French Open: CHAMPION
    1969 Wimbledon: CHAMPION
    1969 US Open: CHAMPION
    1970 Wimbledon: Round of 16 Loser
    1970 US Open: Round of 16 Loser
    1971 Australian Open: Round of 16 Loser
    1971 Wimbledon: Quarter Final Loser
    1972 US Open: Round of 16 Loser
    1973 US Open: Round of 32 Loser
    1975 US Open: Round of 16 Loser
    1977 Wimbledon: Round of 64 Loser
     
  29. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Welterweight!
     
  30. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I think Borg winning 11 out of 27 total majors he played in is about as impressive a record as any in the history of men's tennis. Certainly as impressive as Fed's 16 out of 51 attempts!
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2012
  31. Nadal_Power

    Nadal_Power Semi-Pro

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    27 tournaments, 16 finals, 11 titles.. not bad
     
  32. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    That´s fine.I thought Welters would be Emerson´s.
     
  33. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    It is.a great ratio. and he almost never got beaten before the semis or finals.Still short of Laver´s 2 GS ( specially his last one, at 31)
     
  34. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Emerson is 6' tall! I don't see him getting down to 145lbs.
     
  35. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Chang in the fly and Rosewall in the feather ?

    Edmondson looked worse than Tyson, too.
     
  36. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    You are comparing apples with oranges.It was you who brought up that tennis was better now because more countries in.

    Ask if they feel the same to tennis fans ( seasoned ones) in Mexico,UK,India,South Africa,Australia,New Zealand,Germany,Brazil,Holland,Czech republik, Hungary,Italy...and the United States.

    As for UK, just in case you got tempted to bring Murray in, they had 4 top 50 players like Taylor,Mottram,Cox and LLoyd and even got to a DC final ( 1978 )...not to mention Wade,Jones and Barker in the women´s field...
     
  37. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    16/51 =31%
    11/27 =40%
     
  38. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    ...not to mention that Borg had to play guys like Newcombe,Ashe,Nastase,Smith,Kodes,Orantes,Panatta,Vilas, Lendl,Connors,Mac,Tanner and Gerulaitis compared to Bagdhatis,Davidenlho,Sodelring,Berdich,Tsonga,del Potro,Nalbandian, Old Agassi...let´s save Nadal,Djokovic,Safin and Hewitt.
     
  39. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Here's Pancho Gonzales and Ken Rosewall's as well:

    Pancho Gonzales
    1947 US Championships: Round of 64 Loser
    1948 US Championships: CHAMPION
    1949 French Championships: Semi Final Loser
    1949 Wimbledon: Round of 16 Loser
    1949 US Championships: CHAMPION
    1950 Wembley Pro: CHAMPION
    1951 Wembley Pro: CHAMPION
    1951 US Pro: Runner-up (2nd in Round Robin)
    1952 Wembley Pro: CHAMPION
    1952 US Pro: Runner-up
    1953 Wembley Pro: Runner-up
    1953 US Pro: CHAMPION
    1954 US Pro: CHAMPION
    1955 US Pro: CHAMPION
    1956 French Pro: Runner-up
    1956 Wembley Pro: CHAMPION
    1956 US Pro: CHAMPION
    1956 Forest Hills Pro: CHAMPION
    1957 Wembley Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1957 US Pro: CHAMPION
    1957 Forest Hills Pro: CHAMPION
    1958 French Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1958 Wembley Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1958 US Pro: CHAMPION
    1958 Forest Hills Pro: CHAMPION
    1959 US Pro: CHAMPION
    1959 Forest Hills Pro: Runner-up
    1961 French Pro: Runner-up
    1961 Wembley Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1961 US Pro: CHAMPION
    1963 US Pro: Quarter Final Loser
    1964 French Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1964 Wembley Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1964 US Pro: Runner-up
    1965 US Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1967 Wimbledon Pro: Quarter Final Loser
    1968 French Open: Semi Final Loser
    1968 Wimbledon: Round of 32 Loser
    1968 US Open: Quarter Final Loser
    1969 Australian Open: Round of 16 Loser
    1969 Wimbledon: Round of 16 Loser
    1969 US Open: Round of 16 Loser
    1970 US Open: Round of 32 Loser
    1971 Wimbledon: Round of 64 Loser
    1971 US Open: Round of 32 Loser
    1972 Wimbledon: Round of 64 Loser
    1972 US Open: Round of 128 Loser
    1973 US Open: Round of 128 Loser


    Ken Rosewall
    1951 Australian Championships: Round of 32 Loser
    1952 Australian Championships: Quarter Final Loser
    1952 French Championships: Round of 64 Loser
    1952 Wimbledon: Round of 64 Loser
    1952 US Championships: Quarter Final Loser
    1953 Australian Championships: CHAMPION
    1953 French Championships: CHAMPION
    1953 Wimbledon: Quarter Final Loser
    1953 US Championships: Semi Final Loser
    1954 Australian Championships: Semi Final Loser
    1954 French Championships: Round of 16 Loser
    1954 Wimbledon: Runner-up
    1954 US Championships: Semi Final Loser
    1955 Australian Championships: CHAMPION
    1955 Wimbledon: Semi Final Loser
    1955 US Championships: Runner-up
    1956 Australian Championships: Runner-up
    1956 Wimbledon: Runner-up
    1956 US Championships: CHAMPION
    1957 Wembley Pro: CHAMPION
    1957 US Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1957 Forest Hills Pro: Round Robin exit
    1958 French Pro: CHAMPION
    1958 Wembley Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1958 Forest Hills Pro: Runner-up
    1959 French Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1959 Wembley Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1959 Forest Hills Pro: Round Robin exit
    1960 French Pro: CHAMPION
    1960 Wembley Pro: CHAMPION
    1961 French Pro: CHAMPION
    1961 Wembley Pro: CHAMPION
    1962 French Pro: CHAMPION
    1962 Wembley Pro: CHAMPION
    1963 French Pro: CHAMPION
    1963 Wembley Pro: CHAMPION
    1963 US Pro: CHAMPION
    1964 French Pro: CHAMPION
    1964 Wembley Pro: Runner-up
    1964 US Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1965 French Pro: CHAMPION
    1965 Wembley Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1965 US Pro: CHAMPION
    1966 French Pro: CHAMPION
    1966 Wembley Pro: Runner-up
    1966 US Pro: Runner-up
    1967 French Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1967 Wembley Pro: Runner-up
    1967 US Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1967 Wimbledon Pro: Runner-up
    1968 French Open: CHAMPION
    1968 Wimbledon: Round of 16 Loser
    1968 US Open: Semi Final Loser
    1969 Australian Open: Round of 16 Loser
    1969 French Open: Runner-up
    1969 Wimbledon: Round of 32 Loser
    1969 US Open: Quarter Final Loser
    1970 Wimbledon: Runner-up
    1970 US Open: CHAMPION
    1971 Australian Open: CHAMPION
    1971 Wimbledon: Semi Final Loser
    1972 Australian Open: CHAMPION
    1972 US Open: Round of 64 Loser
    1973 Australian Open: Round of 32 Loser
    1973 US Open: Semi Final Loser
    1974 Wimbledon: Runner-up
    1974 US Open: Runner-up
    1975 Wimbledon: Round of 16 Loser
    1976 Australian Open: Semi Final Loser
    1977 Australian Open (January): Semi Final Loser
    1977 US Open: Round of 32 Loser
    1977 Australian Open (December): Quarter Final Loser
    1978 Australian Open: Round of 16 Loser
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2012
  40. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    What about Hoad? He turned pro in 1958 I guess.Did he play open era tennis majors?
     
  41. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Laver's 19/56 = 34%

    Rosewall's 23/70 = 33%
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2012
  42. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Lew Hoad
    1951 Australian Championships: Round of 16 Loser
    1952 Australian Championships: Round of 16 Loser
    1952 Wimbledon: Round of 16 Loser
    1952 US Championships: Quarter Final Loser
    1953 Australian Championships: Round of 16 Loser
    1953 French Championships: Quarter Final Loser
    1953 Wimbledon: Quarter Final Loser
    1953 US Championships: Semi Final Loser
    1954 French Championships: Round of 16 Loser
    1954 Wimbledon: Quarter Final Loser
    1954 US Championships: Quarter Final Loser
    1955 Australian Championships: Runner-up
    1955 Wimbledon: Quarter Final Loser
    1955 US Championships: Semi Final Loser
    1956 Australian Championships: CHAMPION
    1956 French Championships: CHAMPION
    1956 Wimbledon: CHAMPION
    1956 US Championships: Runner-up
    1957 Australian Championships: Semi Final Loser
    1957 French Championships: Round of 32 Loser
    1957 Wimbledon: CHAMPION
    1958 French Pro: Runner-up
    1958 Wembley Pro: Round of 16 Loser
    1958 US Pro: Runner-up
    1958 Forest Hills Pro: Round Robin exit
    1959 French Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1959 Wembley Pro: Quarter Final Loser
    1959 US Pro: Runner-up
    1959 Forest Hills Pro: CHAMPION
    1960 French Pro: Runner-up
    1960 Wembley Pro: Quarter Final Loser
    1961 French Pro: Round of 16 Loser
    1961 Wembley Pro: Runner-up
    1962 French Pro: Round of 16 Loser
    1962 Wembley Pro: Runner-up
    1963 French Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1963 Wembley Pro: Runner-up
    1963 US Pro: Quarter Final Loser
    1964 French Pro: Quarter Final Loser
    1964 Wembley Pro: Quarter Final Loser
    1964 US Pro: Quarter Final Loser
    1966 Wembley Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1966 US Pro: Quarter Final Loser
    1967 French Pro: Quarter Final Loser
    1967 Wembley Pro: Round of 16 Loser
    1967 Wimbledon Pro: Semi Final Loser
    1968 French Open: Round of 128 Loser
    1968 Wimbledon: Round of 32 Loser
    1970 French Open: Round of 16 Loser
    1970 Wimbledon: Round of 64 Loser
    1972 French Open: Round of 64 Loser
    1972 Wimbledon: Round of 128 Loser


    Rosewall, in particular, was a real nemesis for Hoad.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2012
  43. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    I've counted the Wimbledon Pro held in 1967, so it's actually 20/56 (35.71%) for Laver.
     
  44. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Gonzales got his 14 in his first 26 attempts.
     
  45. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Unfortunately, Mustard, you have included the fake US Pro held at Cleveland from 1952 to 1961. Even the promoter, Jack March, gave up calling it the US Pro in 1962, and adopted the even weirder "World Professional Championship" title, which derived (like the US Pro title) from his own imagination.
    The top pro tournaments in the late 1950's and early 1960's were held at Forest Hills (which the media and the players regarded as the top tournament), Kooyong Stadium, and Roland Garros. These venues were abandoned after the early sixties because they relied on the presence of Gonzales and Hoad to sell sufficient tickets. But then, what else would you expect of the two greatest players ever?
     
  46. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Actually, Rosewall became a nemesis for Hoad only after Hoad was declining as a player (and Rosewall was a nemesis for any player not at his best).
    Before Hoad's layoff in 1960, he actually held an edge in play against Rosewall.
    In 1957, he defeated Rosewall in two five-set marathon finals on clay at The Hague (the most important clay event of 1957) and Cairo, and Kramer stated that Hoad defeated Rosewall on their 1957 European tour two-thirds of the time.
    In their two biggest matches of the 1959 season, at Forest Hills and the Kooyong final (January 1960), Hoad won both matches in four sets. Hoad also defeated Rosewall at Roland Garros that year.
    Hoad could raise his game against Rosewall on occasion even after his play declined (such as a televised tournament final in 1962). After he lost a big toe in an operation in early 1965, his restricted mobility prevented him from beating Rosewall again.
     
  47. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Even before 1960, Rosewall stopped Hoad completing the CYGS in 1956, and beat Hoad in a couple of French Pro finals.
     
  48. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    In the 1956 Forest Hills final, Hoad was playing after spending the whole night consuming beer, and by all accounts, he played below form in the final. Further, he had already told Kramer that he didn't want to turn pro, as he and his wife enjoyed the shamateur lifestyle and touring arrangements. A win at Forest Hills would have forced him to turn pro. He had no great desire to win that tournament.
    In the 1958 French Pro final, Hoad was playing well against Rosewall until he wrenched his back reaching for a ball, which ended his season for 1958. The following year, Hoad defeated Rosewall at Roland Garros, not easy to do.
    In the 1960 final, Hoad was coming off a long layoff and was carrying extra pounds. For 1960 as a whole, the two met in eight finals, each winning four.
     
  49. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Re: the '56 Forest Hills final, this was in the Australian paper, The Age, the day after.

    **********************​

    A cold wind swirled around Forest Hills stadium this afternoon and swept away Lew Hoad’s hopes of a tennis grand slam, as Ken Rosewall took the U.S. national singles title in four sets....

    The vital difference between the pair was that Rosewall learned to use the wind to his advantage, while Hoad tried to combat it.

    Hoad, however, was not disgraced. His tennis in the first set was some of his best ever.

    Had he met a less versatile opponent he, no doubt, would have added the championship to his Australian, French and Wimbledon titles and so equalled Budge’s 1938 record.

    Those who watched all four major titles said that Hoad played at least as well as he did in winning the other events, but that Rosewall was infinitely better than when he lost to Hoad in the Australian and Wimbledon championship finals.

    ... Rosewall explained the match this way:

    "I realized I couldn’t win by trying to beat the wind, so I decided to make it work for me. I concentrated on getting my first serve in and did not worry about its strength, because I knew the wind would swing it around and make it hard to return. Then I ran in to the net and cut short the returns."

    Hoad’s view was: “I couldn’t get going after the first set. The wind was so strong that it blew the ball about as I threw it up to serve. I tried not to toss it so high, but it didn’t help. My serves couldn’t find the court and when my big serve fails I naturally find it tough to play my natural game.”​
     
  50. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Try saying it like this, TMF:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXoNE14U_zM

    Someone's gotta get Jack Nicholson in here. Tell him there are a whole mess of people here who can't handle the truth!
     

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