laver gets too much credit

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by ormynameisntbill, Jun 2, 2009.

  1. ormynameisntbill

    ormynameisntbill Rookie

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    back when he played they only had 2 kinds of courts: hard and grass

    if we still had that today you can multiply feds gs wins by at least 2. and he's only 27.
     
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  2. ormynameisntbill

    ormynameisntbill Rookie

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    im not a fed fan either...ppl just go too crazy about mr. laver.

    due respect however the man dominated his era and i respect what he has done for tennis.
     
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  3. 1-handed-backhand

    1-handed-backhand Banned

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    true

    plus he lost so often

    16 times in 1969, so much for TOTAL DOMINATION

    he wasn't tall enough to be a GOAT

    he's a second tier player that got lucky with his era and technology

    to put it bluntly, Sampras would beat Laver on clay even though Laver won RG

    you have to remember, in Laver's day people S&V'd on CLAY!!!!!!!!!

    Pete would have loved that

    Pete is so unlucky, if he played in the 60s he would have 40+ slams
     
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  4. adidas_wilson

    adidas_wilson Banned

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    dumb... What surface do you think the French was played on?
     
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  5. adidas_wilson

    adidas_wilson Banned

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    Again..... dumb..

    What has someones height got to do anything?

    Are you like 12?
     
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  6. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    Curiously, there are more surfaces for GS tournaments today, yet only one dominant style of play. Laver played S&V on the grass but also played an attacking baseline style on the clay. Today, pretty much everyone is a baseliner, with some venturing to net more often than others. I'm more impressed by Laver's versatility than the monotonous style of play one sees today.
     
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  7. 1-handed-backhand

    1-handed-backhand Banned

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    you dont know much about tennis

    do you think its a coincedence that Fed,Nadal, Sampras etc

    were all above 6ft

    Laver was 5ft 8

    Michael chang was 5ft 9 1/2

    it was said of chang that had he been 6 ft 1 he could have dominated like sampras

    simple genetics, Laver's build was not good enough for today's era, he wouldn't make the top 25

    he is vastly oevrrated by rose tinted spectacle wearing fans
     
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  8. T1000

    T1000 Hall of Fame

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    grass and clay

    at least get the surfaces right
     
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  9. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    1) Yes 3 of the grand slams were played on grass, but they were all very different speeds. Today there is actually less disparity between the surfaces.

    2)Laver actually won the equivelant of about 20 grandslams, he played most of his career on the pro circuit.

    3)Laver was shot for shot better than Federer. He was like Hewitt with Federer's strokes and a much better backhand.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpdPX9avs1M&fmt=18



    /thread
     
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  10. adidas_wilson

    adidas_wilson Banned

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    To start dopey.

    Laver isn't playing in today's era.

    It is fact that the Human race gets bigger with every generation. This is because of the advances of food and fitness. (In saying that, most all of the Australians were as fit as anyone playing today because it was Hopman that started the whole fitness thing with his players)

    Even with Laver being so small, it just shows how good he really was. He beat a very tall John Newcombe in the 69 Wimbledon final. Newcombe himself was known as a big hitter and server, and was tall.

    I know an awful lot about tennis, which wouldn't be hard compared to someone like yourself it seems..

    I don't begrudge Roger. In fact I wish I could call him the greatest. But I simply can't when I match the careers..

    In saying that. Roger was mainly dominant and got most of his titles within a 4 year period. Laver won 2 calender slams 7 years apart, and won everything in between, or what he was allowed to play in..And then played well into his 30's and still matched it with Borg and co..
     
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  11. adidas_wilson

    adidas_wilson Banned

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    Agreed..

    Wimbledon was a plush grass court. Australia was a dryer harder surface.

    How do I know this. Because I grew up playing on it, as my father built us a grass court when I was growing up.. My brother and I had to look after it...

    Don't know much about the US Grass..
     
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  12. T1000

    T1000 Hall of Fame

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    hewitt is 5'10 and owned sampras at the USO. Great champions adjust and laver would adjust to compete with the era today
     
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  13. pricey_aus

    pricey_aus Semi-Pro

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    Thats a great vid. How good were the hands at the net! And I do not think that Laver is overrated at all. The times have changed however, but He was the greatest then, and Fed is the greatest now. In 50 years time we will be looking back and thinking "Was Roger Federer Overrated?"
     
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  14. 1-handed-backhand

    1-handed-backhand Banned

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    thats kind of the point, what worked for the 60s wouldn't work for today

    someone under 6ft deson't have a chance at being GOAT i feel, n matter how strong they are. i would expect even tsonga to beat laver consistently

    no it doesn't, its getting wider but you wont notice any kind of height difference in such a short time span, laver was just short, and it was fine for the 60s but would be deadly today

    using wooden racquets



    mhm :roll:

    lovely

    i'd hardly call it matching it with borg and co, his lonevity was good, but it was still the wood era, rosewall did just the same, another overrated dinosaur
     
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  15. adidas_wilson

    adidas_wilson Banned

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    omg, you don't work do you?
     
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  16. Mungo73

    Mungo73 Banned

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    haha new green Fed trolls bashing Laver

    Laver is GOAT!!!
     
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  17. T1000

    T1000 Hall of Fame

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    wow, just wow. your worse than NF. at least i can have a serious thoughtful conversation with him
     
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  18. pricey_aus

    pricey_aus Semi-Pro

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    [​IMG]
     
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  19. T1000

    T1000 Hall of Fame

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    ^ hahahaha
     
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  20. adidas_wilson

    adidas_wilson Banned

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    Great stuff mate!
     
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  21. canuckfan

    canuckfan Semi-Pro

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    Laver deserves credit as a player who dominated in his era. However sports performance improves over time, training techniques improve, and technology also pushes the level of performance. All you have to do is look at the olympic records for proof -- why does the 100m time continue to decrease? Atlethes gradually get bigger, faster, stronger with each generation. If Laver were snatched from the 60's with his wooden racquet he would be eaten alive on today's tour. This is not his fault. It is simply the nature of things.
     
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  22. JeMar

    JeMar Legend

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    Laver was the OG.
     
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  23. prattle128

    prattle128 Semi-Pro

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    the most interesting thing about this video (that i find) is kinda where the grass is starting to fade to dirt. look at the wimbledon final in 2008, and then that video. just clearly shows the difference in play styles by where players were running/playing a lot of the points. just something that i personally thought was kinda interesting lol.
     
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  24. adidas_wilson

    adidas_wilson Banned

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    Its funny.. Because I can still remember watching Steffi Graf playing at Wimbledon a few years back and saying to myself. gee the service box center line has taken a beating (it was obviously the second week)

    Now it is only the baseline that takes a beating..
     
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  25. lawrence

    lawrence Hall of Fame

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    you just made yourself look stupid
    he was unfortunate not to be taller, yet he STILL managed to achieve what he did

    doesnt that just make him better?
    rofl.
     
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  26. nfor304

    nfor304 Banned

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    I dont think Laver is at all over rated, he is one of the greatest to play the game ever. Yes if you took laver with his wooden racket and had him play now he wouldnt dominate the way he did but if you took any modern player and gave them a wooden racket they would do far worse.
    To say that he is a second tier player who played in a weak era is beyond ridiculous, and shows that you know very little about tennis.
     
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  27. !Tym

    !Tym Hall of Fame

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    Lol...one word for you...STEROIDS.

    I get what you're saying, but seriously look around for a second. Ain't no one was ripped in those days, now everyone has veins popping out of their every nook and cranny.

    Heck, even just legal OTC supplements are HUGE improvements over what used to be available. An athlete's diet back then culminated with a steak dinner and a pepsi, just ask Jimmy Connors.

    It's truly unfair to compare past generations. People are so quick to say founding fathers would get wiped away today, but don't give enough credit to the fact that with the forerunners there is no now. Every bit of human knowledge and advancement was built on knowing what are forerunners knew. We didn't go to the moon in a day. If those who sent us to the moon were born in a generation with no knowledge of the past, of even just the basic concept of math and 1 + 1 = 2 like the cavemen, what do you think? We would have gone to the moon? Of course not. I think being in the "now" always gives one a false sense of superiority when the reality is that you can only judge the elite TALENTS of EACH generation on their OWN terms.

    Per Petr Korda who hit with an older than dirt Laver in I believe it was the late 80s, he said afterward, he was the most talented tennis player he had ever played against. Taking account into age and obvious respect for your elders, it is still quite a bold statement to make that claim, this especially coming from someone who was every bit as talented as any player of his generation.
     
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  28. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah, I guess this explains why Christopher Rochus at 5'2" is 2 - 1 against 6'10" Ivo Karlovic...with 1 of those wins on grass...but wait...this shouldn't be.

    Who said that of Chang? Give me a name, I never heard that. Chang was a retriever plain and simple. He made his living with his legs, running evertything down.

    Genetics, you've got to be kidding.... What an idiotic thing to say. Laver would be top 5 any generation. Laver was taller than Ken Rosewall and Ken Rosewall played on tour for 25 years and won until he finally retired in his mid-40s.

    Yeah, two Grand Slams ten years apart will tend to color anyone's spectacles. 11 majors with a ten year absence, winning matches until his late 30s. More court sense than all but a handful of players who ever stepped on court...EVER. All that and more will tend to color your view. It's painfully obvious that you never saw Laver play.


    If height is the main consideration for greatness, why aren't Isner, Karlovic, Ancic, and all the other NBA-sized players domnating the rankings? Because it ain't so. The average height of the top ten has actually come back down some to around 6' - 6'2'. Connors, Borg, McEnroe, and Lendl were all 5'11" - 6'2".


    Especially coming from a guy like Korda who has/had more feel than 99% of the players who ever picked up a racquet.
     
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  29. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    How exactly can you get "too" much credit if you've won 2(!) calendar Grand Slams? Don't really understand what OP means.

    And yes,Nalbo who is 5 10(around that atleast) went on a tear in 2007 and beat Fed and Nadal in back-to-back tourneys(which no one has ever done).So height argument is a bit silly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2009
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  30. sheq

    sheq Professional

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    yea ı agree.. laver is not definetely the goat..but ı have to admit he has a natureal and unique talent..However his records is not as impressive as roger's or sampras'..he is always mentioned about completing grand slams in a year twice..still,,we all know that competition wasnt as strong as today and surface transitition and diverstiy was low..

    there are some people on this forum tend to assert pancho gonzalez rod laver don budge or newcombe are the greatest of all time..sorry people they are not..

    of course they are so important for tennis evolution and they deserve all the credits..

    IMO GOAT argument should based on two basic evoluation firstly pure talent and skill, second one the records.. ı would rate records as %60 or 70 and talent as %40-30
     
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  31. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Well sure the game of tennis changed over the years no question but are the main neccesary components for a great tennis champion that much changed? I kinda think that the truly great tennis players would be that in any era.

    Also if guys are that bigger,stronger etc. than before why doesn't Fed look like a beefed up Del Potro or Safin etc. why isn't that kind of player dominating the game? Something doesn't add up there.
     
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  32. Dilettante

    Dilettante Hall of Fame

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    Original Gangster?

    Thought it was Ice-T.
     
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  33. mental midget

    mental midget Professional

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    height helps a lot, but it's not everything.

    if rios, at about 5'9 or whatever, had been born with hewitt's or nadal's brain, there's no question in my mind he would have won several majors.
     
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  34. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Laver won on all surfaces

    I suggest that you look at the following web site. Look at the tournament section of what tournaments Laver won and against them it says the surface if it is known. As you can see Laver won around 30 hard court tournaments & around 35 clay court tournaments. And many many more grass, indoor and carpet tournaments.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Laver

    This is a complete myth that he could only play on 2 surfaces.

    Some depreciate his Grand Slams because they were only on Grass and Clay whereas today we have three surfaces for the Majors - Hard (Australian Open, US Open), Clay (Roland Garros) & Grass (Wimbledon). However, laver won the top hard court tournaments of the time such as the Pacific Southwest and the South African open, so you can be sure that he would have had no problems winning majors on a hard court.
     
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  35. harryz

    harryz Semi-Pro

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    Never argue with someone who knows less than you do

    It's a losing proposition. I wonder how long he's been playing, watching and studying the sport. No matter, this isn't worth dignifying with a response.

    Mac idolized Laver, and he played with and against many of the best "modern" players including Agassi, Becker, Sampras and others. He would know whereof he speaks.

    No clue, no logic, and no sense. Interestingly, Laver doesn't believe in a GOAT but in the "greatest of each generation." Wise man.
     
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  36. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    Laver has admitted that being 5'9" wouldn't exactly help him in the modern men's pro game LOL
     
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  37. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

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    There's so many things wrong with that argument it's hard to know where to start. Suffice to say, if you're older than 12, it's embarrassing.

    1. Take Rod Laver (or a Hoad, Rosewall, Gonzalez, Kramer, Budge, etc), with his championship mentality, and give him the same benefits as today's players and Laver would still be a champion. Unlike Federer he was never dominated by another player. That not only points to him having a better all-around game it points to him having a significantly stronger mindset.

    2. You can't say 'oh, but he'd be too small to compete against today's athletes' BECAUSE, were Rod Laver to exist today he would be subject to the same things as everyone else. In other words, Rod Laver born in this era would not be a 5`8, he'd be about 6ft mark.

    3. You can't say I'll take player X from his era, force him to use the same equipment as back then but compete against people user more efficient gear. That's just stupid. All it does is prove that today's racquets and string are more effective and efficient than the gear used previously and today's technique has changed to accommodate them. Even someone with a two digit IQ knows that to be true. However, it makes absolutely no comment on the ability of the player because you'd get exactly the same result if you took a player from today and forced them to use the same equipment.


    Simply put:

    1. What separates a great player from a good player is their championship MENTALITY.

    2. What separates a person who understands professional sport from one who doesn't is the recognition of the first point.
     
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  38. Borgforever

    Borgforever Hall of Fame

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    Laver overrated? I think a lot of people here would be considered extremely sober by the most critical of observers when they agree with this answer/understatement of the year:

    No...
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2009
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  39. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    I get what you are saying but Laver himself realizes that with his stature he would not dominate in the modern era.
     
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  40. marc45

    marc45 Hall of Fame

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    he owned him in the final, the year before sampras straight-setted him in the semis...hewitt did have the edge over pete overall, of course there was a significant age difference
     
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  41. Chopin

    Chopin Hall of Fame

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    Laver gets WAY to much credit. The guy played in a country club era of tennis. Any top ATP pro would crush a player of Laver's athleticism and skill level. Heck, a top 50 ATP pro would probably destroy him (even if they all were using wood racquets).
     
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  42. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    Irrelevant anyway. Hewitt never dominated and was never a GOAT contender.
     
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  43. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    Obviously you having never heard that means little. While watching Chang play, Mcenroe was asked what a bit of extra height would have meant to Chang, Mcenroe answered very quickly "if Chang were two inches taller he'd be Jimmy Connors." To which the other commentator expressed suprise and Mcenroe reaffirmed. Tim Gullickson, Pancho Segura, Nick Bollettieri and Mary Carillo (among others) have also mentioned how just a bit more height could have changed everything for Chang.
     
    #43
  44. Arafel

    Arafel Professional

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    Yeah, Laver has no athleticism and couldn't hang with people who hit hard:

    Just ask Connors:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SptdffCeVmM

    or Borg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-VeBIal8TU&feature=related


    Yeah, of course Laver couldn't keep up with someone who hits with lots of topspin . . . not

    If this post was meant seriously, epic fail
     
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  45. Chopin

    Chopin Hall of Fame

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    Agreed. Look at the Top 10 players today. Tell me what they all have in common....

    Give up?

    Nadal 6'1"
    Federer 6'1"
    Murray 6'3"
    Djokovic 6'2"
    Del Potro 6'6"
    Roddick 6'2"
    Simon 5'11"
    Verdasco 6'2"
    Tsonga 6'2"
    Monfils 6'4"

    Laver 5'8"

    Now look at how athletic these guys are (if you've seen them in person you understand this latter point). Now look at a picture of Laver. Any of those guys would beat Laver soundly (wood or no wood).

    Enough said.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2009
    #45
  46. Chopin

    Chopin Hall of Fame

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    Uh, showing me a video of a challenge exhibition match of crappy quality that looks like the old school video type that is sped up isn't going to convince me of anything.

    Maybe you'd like to note that Laver never won a set against Connors in official ATP matches and lost his last match to Connors 6-0, 6-1.

    And trust me, there's no "hard hitting" going on in the Borg match. It's slow motion tennis. They can volley well, but their strokes are antique. Laver would be lucky to win more than a couple of games against Sampras or Federer.

    Nice try.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2009
    #46
  47. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Chopin, what you're referring to as "old school video type" is film, and old film plays fast but no one has "sped" it up (talk about conspiracy thinking). Anyone of a certain age would have no excuse for not knowing these two things -- or maybe you're just too young. But then, that match with Connors was taken very seriously back then because it was different from exhibitions today, and Laver trained very hard for it; and you don't seem aware of any of that, either. Just how old are you?
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2009
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  48. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    Troll thread. Don't bother.
     
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  49. anointedone

    anointedone Banned

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    It is kind of funny, I figured Chopin was the one to start this thread when I first saw it. Alas not.
     
    #49
  50. anointedone

    anointedone Banned

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    Maybe you would like to note how old Laver was when those matches took place.
     
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