Laver's Height

Would the Rocket's height be a detriment to his success in the modern game?


  • Total voters
    36

Chopin

Hall of Fame
2009 US Quarter-finalists
Juan Martin Del Potro 6 ft. 6 in.
Marin Cilic 6 ft. 6 in.
Robin Soderling 6 ft. 4 in.
Novak Djokovic 6 ft. 2 in.
Fernando Verdasco 6 ft. 2 in.
Roger Federer 6 ft. 1 in.
Rafael Nadal 6 ft. 1 in
Fernando Gonzalez 6 ft. 0 in.


Rodney George "Rod" Laver 5 ft. 8 in.
 
Comparing Laver's height to that of current players seems vaguely pointless. Let's compare it to, say, the legendary giant of that era, the serve-monster Richard "Pancho" Gonzalez. The looming Gonzalez was........5'10"
 

Chopin

Hall of Fame
^^Well I'm asking the very legitimate question of whether Laver's height would have limited his success in the modern game--or, on the other hand, if Laver's powers are godly.
 

nfor304

Banned
beatdeadhorse2.jpg
 
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Carsomyr

Legend
Comparing Laver's height to that of current players seems vaguely pointless. Let's compare it to, say, the legendary giant of that era, the serve-monster Richard "Pancho" Gonzalez. The looming Gonzalez was........5'10"

I thought Pancho was like 6'1" to 6'3". At least according to his autobiography he was.
 

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
Another quality thread

What a load of crap. This is totally unfounded and without any basis.

The earliest top 100 on the ATP website is date 23AUG73. That week, the top ten consisted of:
  1. Ilie Nastase------------------> 6'
  2. Manuel Orantes--------------> 5'10"
  3. Stan Smith------------------> 6'4"
  4. Arthur Ashe-----------------> 6'1"
  5. Rod Laver-------------------> 5'8"
  6. Ken Rosewall----------------> 5'9"
  7. John Newcombe-------------> 6'
  8. Adriano Panatta-------------> 6' (source Wikipedia)
  9. Tom Okker------------------> 5'10"
  10. Jimmy Connors--------------> 5'11"
I built a spreadsheet of the top 100 from then and now. I compiled every reported height. In 1973, they didn't record player's heights quite as stringently as they do now, so for those who didn't have a height recorded, I ignored them in the averages.
  • The average height of the top ten in 1973 (including Laver) was 71.2 inches or just under 6 feet
  • The average height of the top ten (excluding Laver) was 71.775 inches or 6 feet
  • The average height of the top ten today is 73.6 inches or 6'2
  • The difference then between the top ten in 1973 and the top ten in 2009 is exactly two inches.
  • The average height of the top 25 in 1973 was 71.17 inches
  • The average height of the top 25 in 2009 is 73.52 inches
  • The difference is 2.34 inches
  • The average height of the top 50 in 1973 was 71.55 inches
  • The average height of the top 50 in 2009 is 73.4
  • The difference is 1.85 inches
  • The average height of the top 100 in 1973 was 71.57 inches
  • The average height of the top 100 in 2009 is 72.99 inches
  • The difference is 1.41 inches
  • The tallest player recorded in 1973 was Bengston at 77 inches, Bengston was ranked 54th
  • The tallest player recorded in 2009 was Karlovic at 82 inches, Karlovic is ranked 28th
  • The difference is 5 inches
  • The shortest player listed in 1973 was Solomon at 66 inches
  • The shortest player listed today is Rochus at 66 inches (it is generally agree that Rochus is shorter than this BTW)
  • The difference is 0 inches
FUN FACT: Rochus holds a 2 - 1 H2H lifetime against Karlovic which pretty much makes this thread pointless.

FUN FACT: One of Rochus' wins over Karlovic was on grass!

So, what can we conclude?
  • Laver was a top ten player in 1973 surrounded by taller players
  • Players today are taller by approximately 2 inches than in 1973
  • Height is not an overwhelming advantage in tennis if it were, Rochus would not have a career head to head advantage over Karlovic.
  • 2 inches is not an overwhelming change in the size of players
  • This thread continues a tradition of trolling
 
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Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
Just for edification, the top ten today is:

  1. Roger Federer ------------------> 6' 1"
  2. Andy Murray--------------------> 6' 3"
  3. Rafael Nadal--------------------> 6' 1"
  4. Novak Djokivic------------------> 6' 2"
  5. Andy Roddick-------------------> 6' 2"
  6. Juan Del Potro------------------> 6' 6"
  7. Joe Tsonga---------------------> 6' 2"
  8. Nikolay Davydenko--------------> 5' 10"
  9. Giles Simon---------------------> 5' 11"
  10. Fernando Verdasco-------------> 6' 2"
 

Bud

Bionic Poster
Just for edification, the top ten today is:
  1. Roger Federer ------------------> 6' 1"
  2. Andy Murray--------------------> 6' 3"
  3. Rafael Nadal--------------------> 6' 1"
  4. Novak Djokivic------------------> 6' 2"
  5. Andy Roddick-------------------> 6' 2"
  6. Juan Del Potro------------------> 6' 6"
  7. Joe Tsonga---------------------> 6' 2"
  8. Nikolay Davydenko--------------> 5' 10"
  9. Giles Simon---------------------> 5' 11"
  10. Fernando Verdasco-------------> 6' 2"

Rafa is 2 and Murray 3 :oops:
 

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
Rafa is 2 and Murray 3 :oops:

I knew someone would pick fly doo doo out of pepper.

Officially, Nadal is not #2 until the new rankings come out next Monday.

Next time you decide to crap on somone's post, you might want to check your facts first.
 

Chopin

Hall of Fame
What a load of crap. This is totally unfounded and without any basis.

The earliest top 100 on the ATP website is date 23AUG73. That week, the top ten consisted of:
  1. Ilie Nastase------------------> 6'
  2. Manuel Orantes--------------> 5'10"
  3. Stan Smith------------------> 6'4"
  4. Arthur Ashe-----------------> 6'1"
  5. Rod Laver-------------------> 5'8"
  6. Ken Rosewall----------------> 5'9"
  7. John Newcombe-------------> 6'
  8. Adriano Panatta-------------> 6' (source Wikipedia)
  9. Tom Okker------------------> 5'10"
  10. Jimmy Connors--------------> 5'11"
I built a spreadsheet of the top 100 from then and now. I compiled every reported height. In 1973, they didn't record player's heights quite as stringently as they do now, so for those who didn't have a height recorded, I ignored them in the averages.
  • The average height of the top ten in 1973 (including Laver) was 71.2 inches or just under 6 feet
  • The average height of the top ten (excluding Laver) was 71.775 inches or 6 feet
  • The average height of the top ten today is 73.6 inches or 6'2
  • The difference then between the top ten in 1973 and the top ten in 2009 is exactly two inches.
  • The average height of the top 25 in 1973 was 71.17 inches
  • The average height of the top 25 in 2009 is 73.52 inches
  • The difference is 2.34 inches
  • The average height of the top 50 in 1973 was 71.55 inches
  • The average height of the top 50 in 2009 is 73.4
  • The difference is 1.85 inches
  • The average height of the top 100 in 1973 was 71.57 inches
  • The average height of the top 100 in 2009 is 72.99 inches
  • The difference is 1.41 inches
  • The tallest player recorded in 1973 was Bengston at 77 inches, Bengston was ranked 54th
  • The tallest player recorded in 2009 was Karlovic at 82 inches, Karlovic is ranked 28th
  • The difference is 5 inches
  • The shortest player listed in 1973 was Solomon at 66 inches
  • The shortest player listed today is Rochus at 66 inches (it is generally agree that Rochus is shorter than this BTW)
  • The difference is 0 inches
FUN FACT: Rochus holds a 2 - 1 H2H lifetime against Karlovic which pretty much makes this thread pointless.

FUN FACT: One of Rochus' wins over Karlovic was on grass!

So, what can we conclude?
  • Laver was a top ten player in 1973 surrounded by taller players
  • Players today are taller by approximately 2 inches than in 1973
  • Height is not an overwhelming advantage in tennis if it were, Rochus would not have a career head to head advantage over Karlovic.
  • 2 inches is not an overwhelming change in the size of players
  • This thread continues a tradition of trolling

We're talking about the modern game with graphite racquets and heavy spin though--maybe his height wouldn't have been a disadvantage if they were playing with wood, but it sure would be today.

Tell me, where are the top 5 ft. 8 in. who are dominating the game?

Laver would be journeyman in the modern game with his continental forehand.
 

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
We're talking about the modern game with graphite racquets and heavy spin though--maybe his height wouldn't have been a disadvantage if they were playing with wood, but it sure would be today.

OK, so you've taken the OP from "his height would have made him an average player" to "they use graphite racquets now and he couldn't play with graphite".

Pete Sampras had his ProStaffs weighted and balanced to match his original stick the wooden Jack Kramer ProStaff. How do you reconcile that? Roger Federer plays with basically the same frame. They have been described by more than one expert as close in power level, weight, and balance, to a wooden frame. How do you reconcile that?

Graphite frames, had you ever played with any early ones, were weighted and balanced like wood frames. Then, they became lighter and much more powerful. Today's frames are lighter, but have had much of the power taken out of them. They are in effect, counterparts of the old wooden frames without the weight and a more headlight balance. Ergo, there is no inherent advantage in graphite over wood save for the ability of mass manufacture and much cheaper cost to manufacture.

Let me be clear on the point I just made. Today's racquets do enable the players to play a different game. The angle of attack can be much greater, the head speed faster. But to say that this is better is purely subjective. Today's racquets are not inherently better or worse than their wooden counterparts, they are different.

Chopin said:
Tell me, where are the top 5 ft. 8 in. who are dominating the game?

As below.


Chopin said:
Laver would be journeyman in the modern game with his continental forehand.

Prove it. You can't, and to continue otherwise is simply an exercise in trolling.



Your original question did not specify equipment or spin. Your question centered around Laver's height. Your question has been answered with empirical data from 1973 versus 2009.

You have now opted to narrow the parameters of your premise to support an unsupportable argument. Not only that, the wording you use in your OP is clearly sarcastic and judgemental.


The fact is that the difference in height of player is not an issue. Laver faced players who were considerably over 6 feet in height and still he won.

If you now want to talk equipment and tactics, then let me answer your question with a question(s):
  • How can Rochus have a winning H2H over Karlovic if height is so important?
  • Considering the tactics used during Laver's day, the bounce was lower due to slices being the predominant shot, it's no wonder that taller players didn't fare as well. So we could conversely say that given the environment of yesteryear, today's players would be journeymen. This is due to the fact that their extreme grips and swings, would not translate well to a low, extremely fast bounce. The only conclusion then is that it isn't the player as much as it is the environment in which they play.
  • As above in bullet #2, Laver's grip was the proper one for the tactic and surfaces being used. Your argument that it would be a hinderance is based on your inability to hit with the grip apparently. Laver had no problem dealing with anyone's game from Borg's extreme topspin to the other players of his day. But....if Laver were to play today, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he played with more extreme grips.
  • Your question about where the 5'8" players are today is stupid. As the data has shown, there is no significant difference between the average height of players in 1973 and now. The ability, or lack of ability, then has nothing, zero, nada, nil to do with a player's height. The fact then, that there are no "dominant" players of Laver's height is more conicidence than anything else. Chris Evert opined that the women's game would never see a Grand Slam champion under 6 feet tall again. Justine Henin came along and broke the mould. The same is entirely possible in the mens' game as the mens' game has there are currently 31 players in the top 100 less than 6 feet tall.
In 1973, Laver was the shortest member of the top ten. It is clear that he was an exception and not the rule. Were he in his physical prime in 2009, it is clear to me that he would be the exception and not the rule now as well. To make a frozen evaluation of his game without consideration of his environment then or now is clearly a troll.

We can take a modern day example. Andre Agassi was 5'11 inches tall. His ability to compete was not hampered by his height. His longevity was not due to his height or lack thereof. Agassi was an exception to the rule, just like Laver.
 
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ttbrowne

Hall of Fame
But one of the commentators laffed when they described Laver as 5'8" saying, "That's pushin' it a bit. If Laver was 5'8"...then I'm the Jolly Green Giant".
Drysdale, I believe.
 

SoCal10s

Hall of Fame
man you guys believe everything you read? get out and do some research.. first hand look at pictures and compare... laver and Rosewall were not even close to 5'8'" they were/are a lot shorter.. same with Chang,Conners and most of the shorter pros.. they listed themselves taller like most of the NBA shorter players... and Pancho Gonzalez was not 5'11" ,he was teller than 6'1".... go look at the Wilmbledon champions pictures taken with Sampras,Federer,Borg and compare how really short Laver is...
 

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
man you guys believe everything you read? get out and do some research.. first hand look at pictures and compare... laver and Rosewall were not even close to 5'8'" they were/are a lot shorter.. same with Chang,Conners and most of the shorter pros.. they listed themselves taller like most of the NBA shorter players... and Pancho Gonzalez was not 5'11" ,he was teller than 6'1".... go look at the Wilmbledon champions pictures taken with Sampras,Federer,Borg and compare how really short Laver is...

Your point is a very good one. McEnroe said as much when he said Rochus was more like 5'4" than 5'7". Player have always over-reported their height unless it was already in the 6'4 or better zone.

But, to be fair, Laver is probably an inch or two shorter now than then.
 

Dennis Chan

Hall of Fame
off topic

We're talking about the modern game with graphite racquets and heavy spin though--maybe his height wouldn't have been a disadvantage if they were playing with wood, but it sure would be today.

Tell me, where are the top 5 ft. 8 in. who are dominating the game?

Laver would be journeyman in the modern game with his continental forehand.

Chopin, did you get my emails?
 

pmerk34

Legend
OK, so you've taken the OP from "his height would have made him an average player" to "they use graphite racquets now and he couldn't play with graphite".

Pete Sampras had his ProStaffs weighted and balanced to match his original stick the wooden Jack Kramer ProStaff. How do you reconcile that? Roger Federer plays with basically the same frame. They have been described by more than one expert as close in power level, weight, and balance, to a wooden frame. How do you reconcile that?

Graphite frames, had you ever played with any early ones, were weighted and balanced like wood frames. Then, they became lighter and much more powerful. Today's frames are lighter, but have had much of the power taken out of them. They are in effect, counterparts of the old wooden frames without the weight and a more headlight balance. Ergo, there is no inherent advantage in graphite over wood save for the ability of mass manufacture and much cheaper cost to manufacture.

Let me be clear on the point I just made. Today's racquets do enable the players to play a different game. The angle of attack can be much greater, the head speed faster. But to say that this is better is purely subjective. Today's racquets are not inherently better or worse than their wooden counterparts, they are different.



As below.




Prove it. You can't, and to continue otherwise is simply an exercise in trolling.



Your original question did not specify equipment or spin. Your question centered around Laver's height. Your question has been answered with empirical data from 1973 versus 2009.

You have now opted to narrow the parameters of your premise to support an unsupportable argument. Not only that, the wording you use in your OP is clearly sarcastic and judgemental.


The fact is that the difference in height of player is not an issue. Laver faced players who were considerably over 6 feet in height and still he won.

If you now want to talk equipment and tactics, then let me answer your question with a question(s):
  • How can Rochus have a winning H2H over Karlovic if height is so important?
  • Considering the tactics used during Laver's day, the bounce was lower due to slices being the predominant shot, it's no wonder that taller players didn't fare as well. So we could conversely say that given the environment of yesteryear, today's players would be journeymen. This is due to the fact that their extreme grips and swings, would not translate well to a low, extremely fast bounce. The only conclusion then is that it isn't the player as much as it is the environment in which they play.
  • As above in bullet #2, Laver's grip was the proper one for the tactic and surfaces being used. Your argument that it would be a hinderance is based on your inability to hit with the grip apparently. Laver had no problem dealing with anyone's game from Borg's extreme topspin to the other players of his day. But....if Laver were to play today, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he played with more extreme grips.
  • Your question about where the 5'8" players are today is stupid. As the data has shown, there is no significant difference between the average height of players in 1973 and now. The ability, or lack of ability, then has nothing, zero, nada, nil to do with a player's height. The fact then, that there are no "dominant" players of Laver's height is more conicidence than anything else. Chris Evert opined that the women's game would never see a Grand Slam champion under 6 feet tall again. Justine Henin came along and broke the mould. The same is entirely possible in the mens' game as the mens' game has there are currently 31 players in the top 100 less than 6 feet tall.
In 1973, Laver was the shortest member of the top ten. It is clear that he was an exception and not the rule. Were he in his physical prime in 2009, it is clear to me that he would be the exception and not the rule now as well. To make a frozen evaluation of his game without consideration of his environment then or now is clearly a troll.

We can take a modern day example. Andre Agassi was 5'11 inches tall. His ability to compete was not hampered by his height. His longevity was not due to his height or lack thereof. Agassi was an exception to the rule, just like Laver.

This post is nonsense and you know it. Players height today with serving and the extreme grips and uniform bounces has a lot do with the modern game.

And your comments about wooden vs today racquets border on ludicrous.
 

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
This post is nonsense and you know it. Players height today with serving and the extreme grips and uniform bounces has a lot do with the modern game.

And you apparently can't read as that is exactly what I referred to. The bounces and equipment in Laver's day justified both his technique and tactic. I went on to say that if he were in today's game, it wouldn't surprise me if he were to use extreme grips etc.

pmerk34 said:
And your comments about wooden vs today racquets border on ludicrous.

As someone who routinely plays with, and enjoys playing with wooden frames, I find your comment severly lacking in perspective or experience.
 

CallOfBooty

Rookie
It's quite obvious that natural tennis selection evolved the shorter, serve and volley players into the taller, serve and baseline players.
 

FiveO

Hall of Fame
Just for edification, the top ten today is:

  1. Roger Federer ------------------> 6' 1"
  2. Andy Murray--------------------> 6' 3"
  3. Rafael Nadal--------------------> 6' 1"
  4. Novak Djokivic------------------> 6' 2"
  5. Andy Roddick-------------------> 6' 2"
  6. Juan Del Potro------------------> 6' 6"
  7. Joe Tsonga---------------------> 6' 2"
  8. Nikolay Davydenko--------------> 5' 10"
  9. Giles Simon---------------------> 5' 11"
  10. Fernando Verdasco-------------> 6' 2"

1969 Year End Rankings

1. Laver 5'8"
2. Roche 5'10"
3. Newcombe 6'
4. Rosewall 5'9"
5. Okker 5'10"
6. Pancho Gonzalez 6'2"
7. Stan Smith 6'4"
8. Ashe 6'1"
9. Cliff Drysdale 6'2"
10. Andres Gimeno 6'1"


This Laver height thing seems to be implying that Laver was Tennis "Giant" playing a field of Keebler Elves. That's simply not the case.

5
 
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Beethoven was not deaf his entire life.

Beethoven's lack of hearing did not prevent him from completing his ninth symphony, his greatest legacy.
Laver's lack of height did not prevent him from achieving the the legacy of the greatest player of the wooden racquet era.

Now who is better?
A deaf Beethoven or Chopin?
Or are they both music immortals?
 

nfor304

Banned
Chopin is the very definition of a troll. Congratulations to him for achieving his dream.

"A `troll' is an individual who enjoys creating conflict on the internet. He or she creates and fuels arguments which upset other members of the online community.

Trolls thrive in the anonymous space that is the internet. Trolls crave attention from others, and they don't care whether the attention is positive or negative. For trolls, other users are not quite real people; they are abstract characters on the other side of a computer screen. Trolls don't feel bad about hurting the feelings of other people in the digital space.

Trolls view chat rooms and newsgroups as a challenge where the winner is the user who creates the biggest argument, the user who upsets the most people in the most dramatic way. A troll wants to be the user getting the most attention.

Troll behavior discourages many users and makes for a less vibrant online community. New users may not post because they fear ridicule. Established posters may leave an online community because the noise has overwhelmed the real discussion. Trolls can make an entire community paranoid, leading users to become negative or to accuse a user engaged in normal criticism as a troll."
 

Chopin

Hall of Fame
Beethoven's lack of hearing did not prevent him from completing his ninth symphony, his greatest legacy.
Laver's lack of height did not prevent him from achieving the the legacy of the greatest player of the wooden racquet era.

Now who is better?
A deaf Beethoven or Chopin?
Or are they both music immortals?

It's tough to compare music to tennis.

I don't question that Laver was the greatest player of the wooden racquet era--rather I question whether or not his strokes would hold up in the modern game.

I do question the strength of the wooden racquet era.
 

Chopin

Hall of Fame
Isn't Gonzo 5'11.5?

Davydenko is 5'9.5.

Jesse Levine is 5'9.

Dudi Sela is 5'8.5

So you're implying Rodney would have less success than Sela?

I don't think Laver would be a top 50 player given his antique strokes and height (if he a prime version of him were transported into the modern game).

A guy like Davydenko would roll right through him. His continental forehand would breakdown and his serves would be crushed.
 

Chopin

Hall of Fame
Deaf Beethoven (and it ain't even close).

I agree that Beethoven did more to expand the tonal constructs of Western music--no doubt. 19th century audiences were often quite disturbed by much of what they heard from the master.

However, Chopin is at least an equal in terms of producing lasting piano repertoire of value, and superior in terms of expanding certain genres (the etude, the prelude & the scherzo in particular).
 

Chopin

Hall of Fame
1969 Year End Rankings

1. Laver 5'8"
2. Roche 5'10"
3. Newcombe 6'
4. Rosewall 5'9"
5. Okker 5'10"
6. Pancho Gonzalez 6'2"
7. Stan Smith 6'4"
8. Ashe 6'1"
9. Cliff Drysdale 6'2"
10. Andres Gimeno 6'1"


This Laver height thing seems to be implying that Laver was Tennis "Giant" playing a field of Keebler Elves. That's simply not the case.

5

But where are the shorter multiple grand slam champions of today? Where are the Rosewalls and the Lavers? Tell me where they are...
 

Chopin

Hall of Fame
And you apparently can't read as that is exactly what I referred to. The bounces and equipment in Laver's day justified both his technique and tactic. I went on to say that if he were in today's game, it wouldn't surprise me if he were to use extreme grips etc.



As someone who routinely plays with, and enjoys playing with wooden frames, I find your comment severly lacking in perspective or experience.

Where are the 5'8" #1s today? Where are the 5'8" guys who are dominating the game?
 
I agree that Beethoven did more to expand the tonal constructs of Western music--no doubt. 19th century audiences were often quite disturbed by much of what they heard from the master.

However, Chopin is at least an equal in terms of producing lasting piano repertoire of value, and superior in terms of expanding certain genres (the etude, the prelude & the scherzo in particular).

Very nearly agree.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
I agree that Beethoven did more to expand the tonal constructs of Western music--no doubt. 19th century audiences were often quite disturbed by much of what they heard from the master.

However, Chopin is at least an equal in terms of producing lasting piano repertoire of value, and superior in terms of expanding certain genres (the etude, the prelude & the scherzo in particular).

Very nearly agree.

I may disagree slightly.
 

nfor304

Banned
You keep saying you respect Laver very much but if you really did I don't see how you could be constantly deriding his abilities and making threads about players like Venus Williams or even yourself beating him.

There are a lot of big Laver fans on this board and I am one of them. The reason you attract insult and ridicule is because you treat the man who is possibly the greatest player to ever live without much respect, and either belittle his abilities or talk about them with obvious sarcasm.

If I started to make threads comparing Chopin's musical abilities to Michael Jackson, or threads stating that I could compose better music than he if he had his hands chopped off then I'm sure you would be equally annoyed.

Once again I see its a frivolous exercise trying to convince you to change your ways or to try and make sense of your actions so I'm going to go back to ignoring your threads for the sake of my sanity.
 

Chopin

Hall of Fame
You keep saying you respect Laver very much but if you really did I don't see how you could be constantly deriding his abilities and making threads about players like Venus Williams or even yourself beating him.

There are a lot of big Laver fans on this board and I am one of them. The reason you attract insult and ridicule is because you treat the man who is possibly the greatest player to ever live without much respect, and either belittle his abilities or talk about them with obvious sarcasm.

If I started to make threads comparing Chopin's musical abilities to Michael Jackson, or threads stating that I could compose better music than he if he had his hands chopped off then I'm sure you would be equally annoyed.

Once again I see its a frivolous exercise trying to convince you to change your ways or to try and make sense of your actions so I'm going to go back to ignoring your threads for the sake of my sanity.

But the Venus Williams thread was designed as a no-win scenario for Laver, and people saw that and that's why he got trounced in the polls. The poll wasn't about Laver--it was about not being a blind fanboy, and using common sense and reason.

That's what my threads are about--reason. They're sensible.
 
But the Venus Williams thread was designed as a no-win scenario for Laver, and people saw that and that's why he got trounced in the polls. The poll wasn't about Laver--it was about not being a blind fanboy, and using common sense and reason.

That's what my threads are about--reason. They're sensible.

This assumes reasonable people would bother to vote in your polls, which is not the case.
 

Chopin

Hall of Fame
This assumes reasonable people would bother to vote in your polls, which is not the case.

Sorry, I can't agree with this. It is, perhaps, the weakest argument of all mounted against the hurricane that is my collected threads.

"I don't agree with the results of the poll! The good posters must not be voting!"
 

bonga77

New User
It is a great honour to have someone interested in music in one of my threads. Feel free to post in any of my threads.

Kind regards,
Chopin
Your posts are a clear case of auto fellatioo. You usually start phony threads and end up congratulating yourself in your posts.
 

FiveO

Hall of Fame
Where are the 5'8" #1s today? Where are the 5'8" guys who are dominating the game?

They were there pre-Rosewall, Hoad and Laver too. What's the point of the question.

Tilden, Budge, Kramer and Gonzalez.

Even within their careers there were multiple Slam winners 6' to 6'4".

In '69 Laver was #1
In '70 to '71 Newcombe at 6' finished #1
In '72 Stan Smith was #1 at 6'4"
In '73 Nastase another 6 footer

then in '74 Connors at 5'10" and sub 6 foot Borg and McEnroe through 1984.

then Lendl at 6'2" '85-'87 through Sampras in '98.

Agassi in '99 whose "listed" at 5'11".

and Hewitt who like AA lists himself at 5'11".

So there were taller athletes at #1 both before and after Laver. The same guys he beat during his period of dominance. When the relative giants took over 1970 to 1973 they were displaced by the 5'10" Connors

What's your point?

5
 

adidasman

Professional
It's tough to compare music to tennis.

I don't question that Laver was the greatest player of the wooden racquet era--rather I question whether or not his strokes would hold up in the modern game.

I do question the strength of the wooden racquet era.
Do you really think Laver would be using a Continental grip (which he didn't actually use on his forehand, by the by) if he came up today? No, just as Nadal wouldn't have been using an extreme Western grip or a two-handed backhand if he'd grown up in the Fifties. The better question is, would his athletic ability have allowed him to be as great in this era as he was in his? But, of course, you're not interested in the better question -- you're interested in getting people angry. You're quite good at that, it appears.
 

pmerk34

Legend
Do you really think Laver would be using a Continental grip (which he didn't actually use on his forehand, by the by) if he came up today? No, just as Nadal wouldn't have been using an extreme Western grip or a two-handed backhand if he'd grown up in the Fifties. The better question is, would his athletic ability have allowed him to be as great in this era as he was in his? But, of course, you're not interested in the better question -- you're interested in getting people angry. You're quite good at that, it appears.

I'll answer you. At 5'8" in the game right now with the best players getting taller, where the uniform bounces of the surfaces are good for the taller guys where the serves are outrageously powerful and full of outrageous kick? No no one 5'8 155 lbs is going to dominate mens tennis.
 

Chopin

Hall of Fame
I'll answer you. At 5'8" in the game right now with the best players getting taller, where the uniform bounces of the surfaces are good for the taller guys where the serves are outrageously powerful and full of outrageous kick? No no one 5'8 155 lbs is going to dominate mens tennis.

Thank you--someone sensible.
 

ubermeyer

Hall of Fame
FUN FACT: Rochus holds a 2 - 1 H2H lifetime against Karlovic which pretty much makes this thread pointless.

FUN FACT: One of Rochus' wins over Karlovic was on grass!

Karlovic, as much as it pains me to say it, isn't that good. Plus, Leander Paes has a 1-0 singles H2H against Sampras, which doesn't prove anything either.
 
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