Discussion in 'Racquets' started by TripleB, Jan 2, 2005.

1. ### TripleBHall of Fame

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I have very seldom used lead tape in the past. Basically the first time I really used it was a couple weeks ago when I added some to one of my POG mid racquets so that I would have one (my oldest one) at a stock 361g, a newer one (the one I added lead tape to) at 358g, and a newer one at 355g. I put the lead tape on the one that came out to be 358g at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock.

I'm looking to add some weight to the two RDX-500 demos I have and am looking for a little help.

Let's say I wanted to add a total of eight grams (for ease of numbers) of lead tape to a racquet.

What would be the difference in how the racquet played in the following situations?

A) Put 4g at 3 o'clock and 4g at 9 o'clock

B) Put a total of 2g at 8 o'clock, 2g at 10 o'clock, 2g at 2 o'clock, and 2g at 4 o'clock

Also, I know that putting 2g at 10 o'clock and 2g at 2 o'clock would raise the sweetspot but would it make the racquet any more stable?

Thanks for your help.

TripleB

2. ### HeavyBallRookie

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I'm going to keep telling you this until you try it.

Put it in the handle.

3. ### rich sHall of Fame

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you optimize torsional stability by putting the mass at the widest part of the frame --- the 3 and 9 o/c positions -- putting mass at 2 and 10 would increase torsional stability but not to the extent that the same mass would at 3 and 9.

scenario A and B would shift the b/p an equal amount.

scenario A would increase the s/w ~13.7 kg cm^2
scenario B would increase the s/w ~14.0 kg cm^2 and would replicate what head is trying to do with their LM line.

4. ### TripleBHall of Fame

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In looking at the wear pattern on the RDX-500 Midplus (that I'm going to add lead tape to), it seems as though I mainly hit the ball slightly above the center of the racquet face.

Would this wear pattern indicate that I should move the lead tape position slightly up from the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock position so that the racquet is more stable where I typically hit the ball?

TripleB

5. ### andirezRookie

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My racquets have the same wear pattern and I also did quite a bit of research on how to apply lead tape. From what I understand and which has been my own experience, is that if you apply lead above 3 and 9, you will slightly raise the sweet-spot. I don't know where the sweet-spot of the RDX is located, but I assume it is either in the centre or slightly below. So if you apply lead to 2 and 10, it will be more towards where your hitting area is and your racquet will feel more stable.

Now what would be best, either apply lead at 2 and 10, or at 3, 9 and 12. This might be an interesting thread about that which I started a while ago:

6. ### Dedans PenthouseHall of Fame

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Sit down Triple B.

Benjamin, it's time for some tough love, honey.

Right now, you've been demoted from "Triple B" to "Double B" ..... that is, "busted" down to Pvt. "B.ird B.rain"

Fear not, you will be re-instated as "Triple B" at the conclusion of this project---i.e. "Operation: We gotta find you a girl!"

Here's the reason: You crow "Eureka! The Yonex RDX 500...blah, blah, blah!" But just when I get hoodwinked (again) into thinking maybe....just maybe....you've really found your Holy Grail of a racquet (I'm such a gullible sucker), you slip-slide back into "tweak" mode with your new found saviour......this will inevitably lead you back into the murky waters of indicision. No problem, but, as your new advisor for 2005, put down the crystal ball, put the ouiji board away and let's talk:

In a post a while back, you went into "micro-minutia" to the extent that you were describing grips not in 8th of an inch increments (like all us other idiots), oh no!!....YOU had the ability to descern an 11/16th size grip from a 4 3/4 sized grip. Benjamin, we love you.......but you are a nut.

Now, you've tried this and that and a zillion racquets and STILL you've yet to arrive at racquet nirvana. Not a problem; simply recognize that THAT plan isn't working and trying a TOTALLY NEW APPROACH can only be better than the exercise in futility that you've undertaken thus far. NOW, here's what you're gonna do---AND BY THE WAY, THIS IS NOT, REPEAT BENJAMIN, NOT OPEN TO DISCUSSION---JUST DO THE FOLLOWING, NO QUESTIONS ASKED:

Since you've squandered half your \$ fortune on racquets--racquets you'll never even own (demo = no "equity"), YOU SHALL:

1. Get yourself a new Volkl C10 Pro (grip 4 1/2 -- we'll be putting an overgrip
on it, so don't fuss with the grip size--more on that later. AND DON'T
FUSS WITH THE CASH LAYOUT--MORE ON THAT LATER AS WELL)
2. String it with an upper-end, playable synthetic (e.g. NXT, Babolat X-Cell)
at around 60 lbs. (if you stencil it you "style freak" do it in black)
3. Get Babolat lead tape (use Babolat--it's thicker than Gamma and most
other brands) and (since you hit slightly higher on the stringbed), start
by putting 3 grams at just above 9:00 (9:30-ish) and another 3 grams
at just above 3:00 (2:30-ish).
4. Put some (not too tautly stretched) WHITE Yonex Super Grap overgrip
on your racquets grip.

NOW: This racquet is now going to be your point of reference. Sit down! I'm not done with you! Benjamin, you are going to learn to hit, to carress the ball with this racquet--this is a "players" racquet that when strung and "leaded" up will have some heft (13 oz. neighborhood) yes, but it will not some forbodding, unrealistic 17 oz. "St. Vincent" club that only Pete Sampras can use. You said you're a 4.5? This stick wil then be a piece of cake for you, Mr. 4.5. If you prepare early, stay smoooooth, you'll find hitting with this thing is a breeze. Control with power, but power that doesn't come from "out of a bottle" in the form of some imagined "techno" gimmick phraseology.

INITIATE "OPERATION: We've got to find you a girl!"
Put your Yonex demo on "hold" (for now). Take YOUR newly "leaded" C10 Pro and get used to the feel of a heavy, head light, flexible racquet. Get used to the feel of a "solid" frame plowing through the ball. Get used to the feeling of having to maybe adjust your timing to a racquet with a different weight (and swingweight). Get used to the idea that your technique will benefit (no flicks, no hitches) from a substantial frame. I know you've probably demo-ed this frame as well.....all well and good--but this is a new day, I don't give a hoot about your past--these "demo" tests (for years!) have yielded NOTHING!!.....use the above configuration (lead, strings, tension, grip size, overgrip) and GET THIS RACQUET'S "FEEL" INGRAINED INTO YOUR HEAD/HANDS AS A POINT OF REFERENCE.

Preliminary Summary: After (and only after), you've acclimated yourself to the "leaded" soft multi stringed C10, then go "re-demo" the Yonex RDX 500. I bet you a dollar to a stale doughnut that the RDX will seem like an "OK" racquet at best, but with a flimsey feel compared to the Volkl "bumblebee." I'm not saying that the C10 is going to be the BE ALL AND END ALL of racquets; I'm simply presenting a platform that I think could really serve you well in the "apples to apples" comparison sense. You may ask: "Whaaaa, what about the cash outlay you spoke about earlier, whaaaa??!!!" Fear not and read below:

THE BETTER BUSINESS BUREAU SANCTIONED, "DEDANS PENTHOUSE GUARANTEE":
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THE C10 PRO ..... you are a chump ...... er, NO, er... I meant to say, IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THE C10 AFTER 30 DAYS, I'LL BUY IT FROM YOU AT THE "BRAND NEW" PRICE. (I assume you don't throw your racquets--of course you don't!...after all, you don't own any of them--they're ALL TW demos, lol!). LISTEN YOU NUT---I'M SERIOUS. I'M OFFERING (with the "iron-clad" Dedans Penthouse 30-day guarantee) A NO-RISK OPTION FOR YOU. TALK ABOUT "PUT UP OR SHUT UP" .... this is your chance to finally initiate constructive change for 2005. Don't be a 'fraidy-cat, DO IT--I'M COVERING YOUR BACK \$\$PRICE-WISE

Now, the ball is truly in your court......imagine...a stranger willing to put his wallet on the line to end this odyseeeeeee.......

7. ### rich sHall of Fame

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Too damn funny

ROF LOL

8. ### HyperstateRookie

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Yes, place 2 grams each at the sides of the wear pattern. In my experience, this changes the feel of the racquet the least. Stability increases too. Lastly, stick 4 grams to your butt... I mean, butt cap.

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lol dedans....and to make this the perfect switch, singleB would also be using a discontinued classic like the POG. I think your attorney needs to get involved in your offer..there are many loopholes in it for doubleB, and he could just become a closet demo'er and really not be on the way to being cured of his malady and on the way to racquet wellness. besides, even if he does temporarily decide upon a frame, there is a myriad of strings he can demo and post about asking questions about which strings work best in the C10....poly's, multi's, solid cores, price points, tensions, colours, guages, etc, etc, ad infinitum, and then when you throw in hybridding, the permutations become endless.......so please redraft your proposal to include string parameters as well

10. ### TripleBHall of Fame

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Dedans,

TOO freakin' funny man. I LOVED IT!!! Of course I have three questions though:

1) I really hate the Yonex Super Grap (yes, even the white version)...could I replace it with Wilson Cushion Aire Super Tack Overgrip (it comes in grey, black, or yellow)?

2) You say, "IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THE C10 AFTER 30 DAYS, I'LL BUY IT FROM YOU AT THE "BRAND NEW" PRICE." Does that include the price for shipping, handling, lead tape, and overgrip?

3) If I used the "DEDANS PENTHOUSE GUARANTEE" because the C10 isn't as great as you indicate, will you also front me some money on my RDX-500 purchase? :mrgreen:

Seriously, I thoroughly enjoyed your post!!!!!!!

andirez..Thanks for the information and the link to your post. In looking at my wear pattern again it looks as though I need to put the lead tape one full string above the center of the racquet face.

NBM...I've almost got my string decided upon - looking at a Tecnifibre main with either a Tecnifibre (e-matrix) or Prince Syn Gut cross OR maybe a Wilson main with either a Gosen or Ektelon cross OR maybe a Babolat main with either a Babolat or Yonex cross OR

Thanks for the help and the laughs!!!

TripleB

11. ### RabbitG.O.A.T.

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Let me second what Dedans has said. I recenty strayed from the fold only to discover that the Holy Grail of frames is indeed three characters-------C-----1----0. There is nothing sweeter. I have returned, the prodigal son, from laying in the trough that was Wilson.

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aye rabbit...the c10 is the keeper. want to trade me one of my tricked up t10mp's for one of your c10's? both are being discontinued. mine are quite a bit more headlight than stock. ed

13. ### Dedans PenthouseHall of Fame

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NoBadMojo,rich s and DOUBLE nee Triple B: Wait a minute you guys!! I was being serious! Waaahhhh......Rabbit, nobody takes me seriously anymore (if ever-wink!). Benjamin, the "dedans penthouse" guarantee is IN FACT a good-faith offer; for you to ask if you can "extend" the parameters (i.e. subsidize your Yonex RDX500 can hardly be considered "cricket" my good man--bad form sir!). I love the C10, you wanna dump it, the "after 30-day dedans penthouse" is your safety net.

Rabbit, everyone's not taking me serious. I feel like a Marky Wahlberg in "Boogie Nights" walking (with confidence) up to Julianne Moore for his "debut performance" only to have her, Burt Reynolds and the rest of the cast and crew laughing their tails off.

B.B.: Seriously--enough of this "A to Z," "Z to A" and every points in between odyseeeee of yours---I'm offering you a "stick" to latch onto if only to get you out of the procurement quicksand you're mired in.

14. ### Brent PedersonSemi-Pro

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Another vote for the c10 here. I am using the extended version myself, though I am sometimes tempted to chop off the extra 1/2" to give myself the ultimate classic feel...

15. ### ferrari_827Professional

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What gets me is that TripleB has been using the POG, which is a mediocre racket in some respects, far from the holy grail. Almost all of the player rackets are better than the POG, and the RDX is 100x better than the POG, so I don't think TripleB should be that picky.

16. ### andirezRookie

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It is all personal taste and also very subjective to playing styles.

Now TripleB, as I understand you have been playing with the POG for several years and are happy with it. While searching for a new racquet is fun, it really does hurt your game. With every new stick, you have to go through the cumbersome process of finding out how every stroke feels and most of all getting comfortable with it and knowing that you can count on it when it matters most, during competition. Will there be frames that feel as if they are better in one aspect than your POG: of course. While this is due to honeymooning or because they really are a tad better, you have to weigh if it is really worth it giving up all the experience you have built up over the years with this frame. While you are on top of your game, this may not matter that much, but when you are struggling and need to rely on your strokes, it is a world of difference if you know your frame thoroughly or not. To me, this is what makes you wins those though close matches. Those few shots that you were able to hit because you really and instinctively know what your frame is going to do when you hit that difficult ball or when you are not doing well but experience pulls you through.

So what I am saying, if you don't see an apparent reason for not liking your POGs, stick with them and work on your game instead. Of course you can test with lead and see its effect, but changing everything all the time (frame, strings and leading) can and will seriously hurt or stagnate your game. From my experience, leading a frame (hoop and handle) to a weight that you still can handle, will only make the frame feel sweeter. Everything is still familiar, you can still rely on the experience you have built up, but it all feels fresh again.

Anyway, I am sure many have tried, but seems like all have failed so I don't put much hope in my effort here to make you see the light and that you probably already had your holy grail for the last couple of years.

17. ### b.Rookie

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Few grams around 10 and 2. Maybe even lots of layers of some thick protective tape from 9 to 3.

And - I never played with Voelkl, but RDX is much better. It's obvious.

18. ### TripleBHall of Fame

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b. Thanks. It looks as though my typical hitting spot for the RDX-500 MP is about a string higher than center so I'm going to start out by putting the lead tape there.

andirez Point taken.

Since comparing the RDX-500 racquets to my POG mid I find that the RDX-500 racquets just feel more solid. My POG mid even has a pinging sound to it that I never noticed until I compared it side by side the RDX-500. Both of the RDX-500 racquets offer me two things that the POG never has - a volley and a sharp angle cross court forehand. Occasionally I've hit some good volleys with the POG mid but never to the extent that I've been hitting them with the RDX-500 (especially the MP). I've never been able to hit a sharp cross court forehand in my 32 years of tennis. With both of the RDX racquets this shot seems natural. I tried to go back to my POG mid and hit the same shot and it's impossible. If I can add two weapons to my game by switching from the POG mid I'm going to switch.

TripleB

19. ### andirezRookie

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So, apart from the cross court forehand, every other stroke works just as well with RDX as with your POG mid? I find that very hard to believe, but if that is really the case, please don't hesitate and do switch!

In my own personal experience, switching to another racquet (in the same category) has never been a win-win situation.

Could you pin down the reason why you can hit cross-court forehands with the RDX? Probably because it is easier to swing? A suggestion, add weight to your butt cap. Yes this will increase theoretical swing weight, but your racquet will feel a lot easier to swing.

20. ### RabbitG.O.A.T.

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And therein ends the reading of this chapter in the never-ending saga of The Search for the Perfect Frame

21. ### andirezRookie

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Hohohoho not so fast, I am not giving up yet, this chapter is not finished yet Rabbit!

22. ### TripleBHall of Fame

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Compared to the POG Mid:

- my groundstrokes are more lethal

- I have an equal amount of topspin with the Midplus but slightly less with the Mid

- my volleys are 90% better

- more kick on my serves with the Midplus but slightly less with the Mid

- bigger (and more consistent) first serves

- more control with both of the RDX-500s

- a lot more comfortable ride

- better maneuverability

- the one area the POG Mid has an edge is with depth control...I get more balls falling within 2 feet of the baseline with the POG but I think I'll start getting that with the RDX-500 the more I play with it.

TripleB

23. ### andirezRookie

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You really want me to quit, don't you?

Now my last try, do these racquets have the same string and tension (POG vs RDX)?

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andirez you are right in all that you say..the funny thing is that after 5 years of demo's, the dude never actually changes, except when he writes a tw playtest review stating that a racquet other than the POG is what he plays with..lol. the beat goes on....and on........and on......and on......tripleB is way better than I..it took me about 3-4 months for me to dial in all the shots i used to have with what i switched from when i switched....he's got two new weapons with his new frame even before making a switch...not that he's gonna switch..he's only advertising the possibility of change as per the norm....and i've got way toooo much time on my hands..

25. ### El DiabloHall of Fame

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Attention, POG-bashers:
You impertinent punks!! Take a look around you and discover what has been available essentially unchanged for a quarter-century. Basically, it's Oreos, Fig Newtons, and the POG. Why? Because the public never tires of a product that is perfect in its inception, execution, and utility.

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well the POG hasnt changed i guess, but the game of tennis sure has....often better to use something more suitable to the 'modern' game me thinks.

27. ### TripleBHall of Fame

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andirez,

Nope. POG mid - Luxilon Big Banger ALU Power 16L mains and Prince Synthetic Gut 16g with Duraflex (both at 57 pounds). RDX-500s - Wilson NXT 16g string at I assume 60 pounds (probably dropped some since stringing).

When I started my TW playtest (I think the first two) I had switched back to the Wilson Hyper ProStaff 6.1 95. I usually do this when I find my serve has gone stall with my POG mid. For some reason I just serve well with the ProStaff and it helps me get my confidence back up (on my serve but down on other parts of my game). I then return to the POG mid. As far as my new cross-court forehand angle...I think it comes from the fact that when I first started hitting with the RDX-500 racquets I used the same swing I had with my Prince. Because the Yonex racquets are lighter I was able to get around on the ball faster giving me the cross-court result. Now I think it's a matter of a confidence thing in the ability to hit that shot with the two Yonex racquet. I am going to make the switch to either the RDX-500 Mid or RDX-500 Midplus. I'm pretty happy with the way they play stock but I've added a little lead tape (4g to the Mid and 5g to the Midplus) to each hoping to: A) add a more solid return with the Midplus and B) a little more depth on my groundstrokes and a bit more power on my serves from the Mid. I'm sure once I purchase the racquet I can adjust some of that with string choice and tension but I figured while I had the demos why not add some lead tape to see the results.

El Diablo,

Unfortunately the POG Mid has changed. The late '80s version I have weighs in at 361g and the two newer (2000s) versions I have weigh in at 355.5g and 355g. The older one plays heavier and more stable than the other two.

TripleB

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29. ### RabbitG.O.A.T.

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mojo and andre......your advice falls on deaf ears. 3B would rather demo and pontificate than concentrate on what really ails his game. Had he spent 1/2 the demo money on lessons, he'd be a 5.5 now or maybe even on tour getting rackets built custom for him. Oh my, can y'all imagine trying to be a racket tech for 3B building him the perfect racket?

In my best Rod Serling:

Submitted for your approval...this is a conversation between a tennis pro, affectionatly referred to as TripleB. In his search for the perfect racket TripleB has entered a realm few other players or technicians ever get to.....the Racket Zone......

Hey, the racket is close, but could you take .00000001 grams out of the head and move it to the throat?

Two days later.....

Wow, I think we're really close, but there's one bevel that feels a little edgier than the other ones...could you round the 3rd bevel from the top on the Western grip side down by I don't know a smidgen or two?

One day later....

Oh, this is almost perfect.....but...I think you strung the racket on a machine that is calibrated in kilos rather than pounds...could you restring it and make sure that it is done in pounds this time?

Two days later......

This thing is perfect.....the only problem I have is that the grommets should be just a tad bigger to let the mains move thereby allowing more play on the strings....

One week later.....

Guys, we have to go back to the drawing board. What I want you to do is take the POG Mid, take a couple of ounces off it and make it just a tad more lively. What we've got here is ok, but it's just not what I want. Now, if we do it right this time....

30. ### ollingerLegend

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Amen!!!! Mojo has it right. You're an experienced player, a student of all things "racquet", and a teacher -- do you really need to ask people where lead tape goes, or are you so enamored with the sight of your own spouting? Time to be an adult.
________
Jomtien condos

Last edited: Sep 3, 2011
31. ### b.Rookie

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BBB,

"...It looks as though my typical hitting spot for the RDX-500 MP is about a string higher than center so I'm going to start out by putting the lead tape there..."

If you add, let's say 4 gams, it becomes part of racquet mass as a whole. Your goal is to move centre of gravity, centre of inertia and all those @\$#\$@ centres upwards, and sweetspot will move in the same direction.

Problem is that sweetspot does not follow added weight vigorously.

True - that will increase sw less than at 10 & 2, but sweetspot will not be moved too much. You will add stability more than you will move sweetspot.

Well - this is redundant: you will find out yourself what suits you!

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aye rabbit...we've been down this path before..deja vu all over again. i think it's MUCH better he be thoroughly over the top obsessed about this sort of thing than which gun is more accurate, the smith and wesson or a browning (did i get those names right?) .. rabbit if you are following this, you were looking for me earlier and i also proposed a trade with you..care to respond? ed

33. ### matchpointsProfessional

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this is too funny....are you STILL demoing sticks? i thought this was over at the old boards....

34. ### bounce-hitRookie

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Benjamin! You should take Penthouse's offer. It's a no lose situation for you. Either that, or choose ONE of the RDX's and stick with it for a full 6 months, without demoing (or even thinking about demoing) any other racquet during that time. What do you think?

35. ### RabbitG.O.A.T.

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This you mean? Naw, better stick with the C10 for now. Drop me a line at rweems@bellsouth.net. I have some info you might be interested in though.