Lesser Known Tennis Rules

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by fightfan, Sep 21, 2012.

  1. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    I hate self calls. Pretty much all you can do is laugh it off and not let it bother you.

    99% of the time people call it on themselves and/or people just stop play because everyone "knows" it was a double bounce or whatever. There's always that 1% of the time that people play on and say it isnt so.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLic-eiO5_8

    At 0:28 the point starts
    Infraction occurs at 0:35
    Drama the whole way through lol...
     
    #51
  2. Fusker

    Fusker Rookie

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    5:01 - karma
     
    #52
  3. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    On calling your own shots out:

    I wouldn't make a call on a shot that I hit that lands near the opponent's baseline - too far away for me to see.

    But I will often call my shot out when I am going down the line and have my opponent on the run. He is looking across the line while I have a perfect angle. If I see it out I will just call it when I see it even if opponent has not yet made a call.

    With 95% of people if you treat them fairly they will do the same to you.
     
    #53
  4. tennis_ocd

    tennis_ocd Hall of Fame

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    If you see your shot out you should call it out. Kind of a shame this is in the "lesser known rules" thread.
     
    #54
  5. Fusker

    Fusker Rookie

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    I agree. I put it here based on my experience, and the subsequent commentary seems to unfortunately justify its existence here. OrangePower's approach should be such common sense that it still blows me away that folks I've played don't get it.

    In matches when I've called my own ball out, I do sometimes get guys that will later on ask me how I saw something they were uncertain of because they know that I'll do my best to help and call it fairly. The call will either be "in", "out", "no view" or "too close". Three out of those four options still mean "in" and in those cases, guys appreciate my feedback and we move on. It's too bad this doesn't seem to be the norm in my experience.
     
    #55
  6. Big_Dangerous

    Big_Dangerous Legend

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    I've never been in a scenario like that, but 2 inches is actually some margin, I would think you could see that. I mean I'm talking close shots that are less than or equal to about an inch. But yeah if that was the case then I'd call it out.
     
    #56
  7. PhrygianDominant

    PhrygianDominant Hall of Fame

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    Threads like this make me realize how much I love clay courts. Those marks spare us so many arguments.
     
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  8. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Sadly, many players do not know their opponent is entitled to ask their opinion on line calls. When asked, these players do not simply state their opinion. They get all up in your grill, taking umbrage at the fact that you asked for help on a line call that is your responsibility.

    They probably also return obviously out faults. There is nothing to be done for these people.

    :sigh :
     
    #58
  9. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    Thanks MCLOVIN, you correclty pointed out that I was wrong, but your answer also is incorrect. A let is only called if it is UNCLEAR whether the correct ball was played. If the returner hits the wrong ball as a winner, but it is clear later that he played the wrong ball, then no let, he loses the point. The rule is here:

    "Case 2: A ball in play hits another ball which is lying in the correct court.
    What is the correct decision?
    Decision: Play continues. However, if it is not clear that the actual ball in
    play has been returned, a let should be called."

    For instance, if the ball being served is a wilson 3, but the ball that was returned is a Penn 1, then it is clear he returned the wrong ball, and he loses the point in that weird case.



     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
    #59
  10. McLovin

    McLovin Hall of Fame

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    Well, not exactly, because in your scenario (two different kinds of balls), assuming we are playing with two different brand/number of balls, both players would have to know which ball had been served first (the fault). In other words, it is not clear, so a let is played. The only way I see your scenario is if a ball rolls on to the court from an adjacent court in the middle of a point, and my shot hits that ball. In which case, we should have called a let to begin with.

    But that wasn't my original question:
     
    #60
  11. Darkhors

    Darkhors Rookie

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    I've never seen a time when a rally ball hits a stationary ball on the court and it's not evident immediately which ball is which. Even when hitting the balls hard, you can tell which ball was the one on the ground and which was the one actually hit. You're already following the ball, so it's not like you have to guess at this.

    However, McLovin is correct that if for some reason you can't figure it out, then you have to play a let (assuming that the player was able to hit one of the balls back over the net, which also doesn't happen hardly ever).

    DH
     
    #61
  12. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    Thank you Darkhors, that was my point.

     
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  13. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    If two players possess the ball simultaneously, it's considered a catch by the player who hit the ball, i.e. the offensive player.
     
    #63
  14. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    True, but:

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. uk_skippy

    uk_skippy Hall of Fame

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    As answered, if the returner changes rqt it will be a 1st service as I believe the act of changing the rqt is deemed hinderance to the server's continuity of the serve.

    Interesting to say if the returner doesn't want to change rqt. Can't really see why you'd that unless your opponent has been serving doubles all day long.

    As for the reverse scenario given above, surely that would be delay of game by the server and subject to warnings/point penalties? I guess if it was the 1st serve of their service game, then allowing them to get their other rqt would be the right thing to do; but other then that I feel they should be penalised for not bringing enough equipment to the court. If a pro runs out of rqts either by string breakages or broken rqts (and I quote Invaniseivc here) then they default the match. It couldn't be expected that the player sends a rqt off for stringing and asks the umpire to wait until its returned before playing on.
     
    #65
  16. kelkat

    kelkat Rookie

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    Okay, I have a situation that happened yesterday at an away
    match. My partner and I split sets in a league match, and time
    is running out (indoor courts). Since the wall clock is too far away
    to read the exact time, the op gets her phone out and puts it on the
    bench.There is 4 minutes left till the top of the hour so we start
    a tiebreaker for the 3rd set. We agree that whoever is ahead at the
    top of the hour wins the match.

    The score is tied at 2-2. In the middle of the next point,
    the club's "on the hour" buzzer goes off. I was really thrown
    off by the loud sound as our club doesn't use this signal
    (during the previous hour, we were not in play when it blew and it
    didn't register with me that this would be going off EVERY hour).
    They ended up winning the point, hence the match. I was wondering
    after the match if I could have called a let right when it
    happened....? I have a feeling its just a part of home court
    advantage, and the point would have been mute. It is incredibly
    distracting for a visitor not use to the blowhorn, especially when
    the op pulled out her phone, which suggested that the phone was the
    time-piece in use. *shrug*.
     
    #66
  17. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    An obscure rule I see broken with regularity, in fact I pointed this out to in a rec match this week, is proper positioning of vibration dampeners. The vibration dampener must be within the area of the frame and the most outside strings. You can have as many dampeners as you please (I believe) but they must be placed within the area of the frame and the outermost strings. You can have one below the bottom string, where most players place them as well as at the top and each side. I believe the reasoning behind this is so you can't use the dampener to manipulate the ball .

    Personally, I stopped using them after reading in one of Crawford Lindsay/Lindsay Crawford's tennis science books, that they do virtually nothing but change the sound of the strings. To me vibration dampeners are just one more piece of equipment to fret about and distract from why my volleys go into the net rather than slicing deep to the baseline. I remember in a rec match in Baker City, Origun, spending twenty minutes, comically looking for a dampener that a player had lost and thought it had flown through the fence. We gave up and then found it at the opposite end of the court later.

    But then I found a cool American flag dampener by Wilson that I put in my sticks now. Anyone who notices and comments on it I give them one. So far I've only given away one. They seem to notice the yin/yang one more that I use in my wet stick.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
    #67
  18. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Around here, the rules specify whether a point in progress when time lapses will count. In MD, it counts. In DC, it does not count. I don't know what would have happened if the players on court had agreed to something that conflicts with the rules.

    Anyway . . . you can't claim a hindrance for a loud noise, I'd say. Even if the noise is the facility horn.
     
    #68
  19. tenniscasey

    tenniscasey Semi-Pro

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    Well, not every match is a competitive match that'll affect your NTRP rating.

    I had this scenario come up a year ago, playing singles with a buddy who'd only brought one racket to the rec courts. Rather than borrow my crummy backup, he kept playing with the broken string. If he'd wanted to change out rackets, I have no doubt he would have offered me first serve and I would have declined.
     
    #69
  20. cll30

    cll30 Rookie

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    If it had been mute you wouldn't be complaining.
     
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  21. kelkat

    kelkat Rookie

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    ^^^^^ true.

    Correction -- moot.
     
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  22. McLovin

    McLovin Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, I've seen this on some of the girl's frames on the high school team I coach. I reposition it & inform them of the rule, and also mention that no one will really notice, or care, but why take the risk?

    And unlike in hockey, where an illegal curve of the stick can result in a goal disallowed, if they do get caught, they won't lose any points/games. They just have to reposition it & move on. That's the great single rule in tennis that most people don't know:
    All points played in good faith stand.​
     
    #72
  23. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    I think the actual wording for that is "where the strings do not cross" or something. That means essentially the same thing you said, but I believe the technical wording was something about "can only have on where the strings do not cross".

    I think thats why theres that controversy about "string savers" and "silicone sprays" or w/e.
     
    #73
  24. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    #74
  25. tenniscasey

    tenniscasey Semi-Pro

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    The rule isn't nearly as goofy-sounding as you want us to think it is.

    Here's the wording directly from 2012 Friend at Court, ITF Rules of Tennis, Rule 4, Case 3 (echoing the link tom posted directly above):

    Case 3: Can vibration damping devices be placed on the strings of a racket? If so, where can they be placed?

    Decision: Yes, but these devices may only be placed outside the pattern of the crossed strings.
     
    #75
  26. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    If you are playing singles, and you run to retrieve a drop shot, and you can't stop so you jump over the net and land in the doubles alley on the other side of the net, you do not lose the point (as long as you don't touch the net when jumping).
     
    #76
  27. Alchemy-Z

    Alchemy-Z Professional

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    Really! dang it..I've done this in fact I Landed outside of the whole court playing area doubles alley included.

    We laughed about it and I gave the point away thinking I had breached the net during play..

    oh well I won anyway :) but good to know
     
    #77
  28. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    That's a good one Woodrow! I have never even conceived of that occurring but given some of these tall guys around the courts these days (why don't they go back to playing basketball?) and watching them step over the net with ease, it seems quite a possibility.
     
    #78
  29. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    So you've done your coin toss/racket spin.

    Player A wins the toss and elects to serve.

    Player B chooses his side.

    The warmup begins.

    Now, during the warmup, it starts to rain, and you need to leave the court. You come back to the court a couple hours later.

    The result of the coin toss/racket spin (i.e. heads or tails) STANDS AS IT WAS.

    The players, however, have the right to change their mind as to their choices.

    Player A (since he won the toss) can re-choose serve, receive, side, or defer.

    Then, Player B gets to make a new decision as well.
     
    #79
  30. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Does the answer change if the break is shorter (e.g. 5 minutes)?
     
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  31. dizzlmcwizzl

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    Related question .... you play a match and you are in the middle when you have a rain delay. You end up resuming the match at a different court on another day. Who chooses the side you will begin the next day on?

    Obviously the server is determined if you are in the middle of a set, but which side he will serve from is not ... so who chooses?

    Also related ... lets say you resume the match on exact same court but the next morning ... so the sun has moved and the "bad side" has switched to the other side of the court. Are you required to start from the same sides of the court since it is the same exact court? (thinking mostly about doubles here)
     
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  32. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    To your first question, I found myself in a unique situation. In Florida, we get pop up thunderstorms basically every day. We were playing a match into the second set when a cloud burst. I looked to the west and saw it was perfectly clear so I suggested we move to a different club (mine). All parties agreed so we did. This simple solution created a dilemma. A tree blocked the sun better at my club. Also, the courts are at a slightly different angle and so the tail wind was now more of a cross wind.

    However, in an official match I believe it is supposed to be at the same site and on the same court.

    As to your last question, I believe it is irrelevant. Just like pro match rainouts or suspension of play due to darkness. You return to the same court and resume at the exact point the play was suspended.
     
    #82
  33. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    This may be true in theory but I bet this has happened even in official matches so someone has dealt with it.
     
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  34. Tar Heel Tennis

    Tar Heel Tennis Semi-Pro

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    Players resume play on the same side they were on when play was suspended. The position of the sun/clouds/wind/whatever have no bearing in this situation.
     
    #84
  35. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    The original question to which comment refers deals with the situation when the players change courts ... so the same side is no longer possible, since the court has has changed.
     
    #85
  36. jonnyjack

    jonnyjack Rookie

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    You don't necessarily have to reach over the net. If the ball spun back over the net close enough to the sideline, you can run around the net and hit the ball as long as you don't step into the opponent's court (or touch the net).

    Woodrow can confirm this, unless I'm completely wrong! :)

    Also, I believe the right shot to take when you do run around the net is to hit the ball into the net so it just dies into the court. It would be semi-equivalent to hitting a netcord winner.
     
    #86
  37. Rob_C

    Rob_C Hall of Fame

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    Isnt it illegal to start a pt with a broken string??
     
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  38. Rob_C

    Rob_C Hall of Fame

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    Where in the rules does it say that the point is lost if the incorrect ball is played??? All I saw was that if it's unclear that the correct ball was returned, the pt is replayed.

    The last part about the Wilson & Penn balls was your own example, right??
     
    #88
  39. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    Only in professional tennis.

    But the start of the point is before the first serve. So even in pro tennis, if the receiver breaks a string returning a first serve fault, he can choose to play the second serve with a broken string.

    But in amateur tennis, you can start a point with broken string.
     
    #89
  40. Mauvaise

    Mauvaise Rookie

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    But it is still possible, isn't it? I thought 99% of all tennis courts are built with the ends on North/South, so if you were playing on the North side of the court when rain halted the match, you'd still play on the North side of the court when play resumes, be it a different day, different court, different facility (or all three). Right?

    This is the way we did it when our match got called in the middle of the 2nd set at a recent club tournament. We resumed two weeks later and on a different court, albeit the same facility. We picked up right where we left off:

    Opponents serving at 3-4, 15-15 (though we did start the point over as we ran off the court after a first serve fault). They were serving from the South side of the court when we halted and resumed their service game from the South side of the court.
     
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  41. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    This is my question ... when the court changes should we find magnetic north or should we re-toss to determine side?

    I just want to know the rule ... I really do not care what the rule is.


    FWIW, my personal experience is that somewhat less than 99% of all courts are oriented north-south.
     
    #91
  42. cll30

    cll30 Rookie

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    Yeah, sometimes they're just put where they will fit.
     
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  43. NineMileSkid

    NineMileSkid Rookie

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    #93
  44. Bedrock

    Bedrock Semi-Pro

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    You actually have to make a call on yourself and lose the point if you:
    dropped a ball, cap or any other subject on the court during point.
    Just like in the case of double bounce.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2012
    #94
  45. Bedrock

    Bedrock Semi-Pro

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    Assuming that the second ball was on the court before point started, answer is: Play continues.
     
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  46. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    Nope. You can't call a let for dropping something yourself. Your opponent has to call that let immediately. You can't hinder yourself

    The first time it's a let, eac subsequent time you lose the point as an intentional hindrance.
     
    #96
  47. Bedrock

    Bedrock Semi-Pro

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    I did not say let. I said you lose point right after first drop.(however it is not that critical first or second drop)

    I do not know any rule where player calls anything on opponet's side.

    Do you know any reference to rules for this case? ( I know it is there, but I do not remember where)
     
    #97
  48. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    Ok. I will clarify.

    First of all, it is very clear that if a ball falls out of a player's pocket, the first time it is a let, then each subsequent time it is loss of point. Yes that is critical.

    A hindrance (let or loss of point) can only be called if the "hindered player" was actually hindered from making a shot he had a play on. A player is not entitled to a hindrance based on something that that player caused (i.e. hat falling off his own head, ball falling out of his own pocket). In the case of excessive grunting, only a chair/roving umpire can make the call as to whether it's a hindrance.

    Of course, a player may call a hindrance against himself, and that is very good sportsmanship, but if he calls a hindrance against himself, it is a loss of point, and he is not entitled to replay the point. But it is the player that is hindered that needs to make the call. It's in the rules and the code.
     
    #98
  49. Bedrock

    Bedrock Semi-Pro

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    You are right a let can be called by any player.

    Everyone has to know rules before the start of the game.
    What is the difference between first and second drop? (I do not see common sense)

    For some player(for a lot of players) it is a big destruction if anything is laying on the tennis court.
    And they do ask to remove it before start playing a point.
    If ball or any other object arrives from outside of the court a let can be called. But the call suppose to be made immediately. Otherwise the game continues.
    If obstacle(hindrance) has been created by a player the player losses the point.

    However there is still no reference to the rule that makes exception for creating a first hindrance.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2012
    #99
  50. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    I did not say a let can be called by either player in this case.

    It is a big difference because the first drop is considered unintentional hindrance, and a let can be played. After that, it is considered a deliberate hindrance, and it is loss of point.
     

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