Let's disspel the myth that Federer thrived against a "weak field"

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Jamin2112, May 31, 2012.

  1. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Good analysis. I agree with the main point.

    I disagree in part of the rest of the field.....but that doesn't really matter anyway. When you are dealing with players like fed, nadal and joker they are really the only competition for each other and that's all that needs to be focused on. Bottom line :

    3 GOATS > 1 GOAT

    .
     
  2. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Sort of like Fed....

    Fed was cheated in a way. During the weak era like all of us we just figured his game was perfect. He didn't need to change. So when Nadal came around we were to stubborn to change.

    Nadal on the other hand ha Federer to push him to become better an better. Changing his grip hitting flatter balls and just pushing to become better.

    Joker was chasing both Nadal & Fed and his hunger to become better pushed him to a new level.

    And now Joker has pushed Nadal again....Rafa changed racquets and almost took out Joker at the AO even though joker has always dominated nadal on hard courts.

    I think Nadal has been pushed by Jiker to raise his game yet again .

    Federer never had that battle. His competition was so weak for So long he just became complacent. He is finally realizing that and hired anacone.....he is at least trying ......the question is whether it's too little too late?

    I hope that this competition will push fed to a higher level the way it has pushed nadal and Joker....

    Fed and all of us have been cheated on a way. :-(
     
  3. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    At least you admit it...
     
  4. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    I agree on all your points regarding Federer (except I dont consider him the true GOAT) so I am not sure what you are getting at.
     
  5. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    You are aware that Federer is 30, correct?
     
  6. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    I meant some woul argue Nadal is the true goat.

    At this point however it's a pointless argument because nadal, joker and Fed are battling for that right .

    The last man standing o these three will be the goat.

    As to who is in the lead is purely debatable.
     
  7. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    I believe Laver is the GOAT and I dont think anyone else is possible until they win atleast 1 true Grand Slam, and roughly 20 slams.

    At this point the order is Roger > Rafa > Novak in historical value, but indeed Roger is lucky he played Roddick and Hewitt for years and not Nadal and Djokovic, and the idea he would just breezes to 3 or 4 slams every year from 2003-2007 even with Nadal and Djokovic in their primes at the same time as this forum seems to believe is quite the laugh.
     
  8. Dutch-Guy

    Dutch-Guy Legend

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    Fed had to face pigeons in his era: Hewitt, Roddick, Safin, Gonzalez, Baghdatis (50-8 combined *shaking my head*) whereas Rafa has to face Fed, Nole, Del Potro, Murray,Tsonga, etc.
     
  9. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    Those players are only looked at as Federer's "pigeons" in hindsight because they lost to him.
     
  10. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    For me, there are other records that mean more than Federer's slam record but would be meaningless without it. For instance, the 23 slam semis streak, the 237 weeks at No. 1, etc. all come together to make him the GOAT in my eyes.
     
  11. augustobt

    augustobt Hall of Fame

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    Imagine in the future. When people seeing Federer's record against Del Potro, they'll say the same thing, that he was his pigeon...
     
  12. augustobt

    augustobt Hall of Fame

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    Thus, Nadal on always have his spanish buddies on his draw.
     
  13. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Yeah its amazing !

    Has he ever been even injured ?

    Because of Rafas physical game I think Nadals body is way more banged up.

    Fed is playing amazing . I see no evidence of him slowing down .

    He was losing to Nadal before and he is losing today the same way.

    Joker on the other hand has raised his game and is now beating Nadal as well as Federer.

    The only thing that's changed in the equation is Joker.

    Fed would be #1 today if not for those two players.

    .
     
  14. Dutch-Guy

    Dutch-Guy Legend

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    Exactly.Constantly losing to him made them pigeons. I mean 60-8 win/loss combined is an abysmal record for guys that were supposed to challege him.
     
  15. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    So now nadal won because his spanish buddies threw their matches ?
     
  16. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    And Nadal played at very good level on hard courts in 2005 and even beat Federer on the surface in 2004. That didn't stop you from saying he was pre-prime before 2008.
     
  17. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Theres a lot of ways I can counter that.....

    But the easiet way to say it is that Nadal & Joker are so much better than those guys.

    3 goats > 1 goat.
     
  18. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    That's what you're saying Federer's competition did.
     
  19. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Again it's a simple premise ....

    3 goats > 1 goat
     
  20. augustobt

    augustobt Hall of Fame

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    You don't know nothing about anything. I'm very impressed about that.
     
  21. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    They didnt throw matches. Hewitt and Roddick atleast were great fighters. They just dont have near the talent or overall games of top 30 players all time, let alone top 10.
     
  22. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    Those GOATs were all in the field in 2005. Why is it only now that they're competing?
     
  23. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    What is your point. It is not like Del Potro is likely on his way to being a great great player, or one of the stars of his or any era. Heck at this point it is unlikely he will even surpass people like Hewitt, Roddick, or Safin. When people talk about the stronger competition today, he is barely of note, ending one year ranked #5, and having won 1 title above 500 level at nearly age 24 now. Murray has had a way better career even without a slam.

    Of course Federer owns Del Potro. Nearly every good player does.
     
  24. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    I still think there's a difference among the type of fields between then and now, but not in strength. Federer's field included more landmines spread out across the draw with potential upsets and slam winners everywhere. Today, the game is more top-heavy while everything before the semis is virtually a cakewalk.
     
  25. augustobt

    augustobt Hall of Fame

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    I don't get what you're trying to argue. Todays competition is harder because we have Nadal and Novak OR because we have Nadal, Novak, Murray, Tsonga, Del Potro and many other good players?
     
  26. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Good question.

    Because they were young developing players.

    Nadal wasn't born to win on hardcourts. He worked hard at it .....changing his serve grip and increasing his serve by 20 mph....and hitting balls flatter. That didn't happen over night.

    Similarly Joker used to quit on the middle of mathes and was dubbed chokeavic. Ever since his gluten free diet or whatever inspired him he is stronger physically now and mentally.....he is just a different player who has come into his own.

    These guys were in their early 20's. It's like asking why is Federer 0-3 against rafter. He wasn't the same player back then .....that's why.
     
  27. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    I don't agree....but anyway all that matters is what's at the top.
     
  28. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    Then by the same measure Federer isn't the same player he was either. Maybe you haven't noticed (or are nearly as observant), but Federer has declined, whether you like it or not.
     
  29. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    I really have not noticed it.

    But fed has been losing to at least Nadal for quite some time now.

    Joker has been beating nadal.

    Nadal is not in decline so it's safe to assume that the only thing that has changed in the equation is that joker has improved.
     
  30. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Past prime Fed is still doing fine against DP, Tsonga and Murray. However, a young Fed was having all sorts of trouble against Nalbandian and Hewitt.
     
  31. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    If you haven't noticed a decline, then you must have only just started watching Federer play (so it appears as though he's always played that way).
     
  32. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    And still losing to Nadal....and he also lost the AO to joker but in so called "past prime" beat Joker just last year.

    He also did beat nadal this year .

    I don't see a past prime fed at all.

    You guys throw it around like water as a defense be aide no one can really pin point when a prime starts or ends.

    I see no evidence of any slow down yet .....but he got beat by both guys in his so called "prime" as well.
     
  33. augustobt

    augustobt Hall of Fame

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    Seriously, when you started to watch tennis?
     
  34. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    LAWL at the guy pointing out Gonzalez and Baghdatis as if they were constantly reaching slam finals but at the same time ignores Nadal beating Berdych, Soderling or freaking Puerta who had no bussiness reaching the 2nd round of the FO.

    Heck, he would probably include Soderling as one of Federer's pigeons but unfortunately he would also have to take away one of Nadal's slams (2010 FO to be exact).
     
  35. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, and Roddick beat a prime Nadal in 2010.
     
  36. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    -But but Nadal was still in a slump!
    -Ok, so Roddick beat Nadal in Dubai in 2008 in straight sets.
    -But Nadal wasn't the Nadal we now!

    YAAAY
     
  37. a10best

    a10best Semi-Pro

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    90s Era - Sampras, Agassi, Courier, Rafter, Ivanisevic, Krajicek were no flukes. Don't forget Henman, Alex Corretja, Carlos Moya and a few others that would give this era a run for their money. deep competition

    90s - clay court champs - Brugera, Kuerten, Muster were extremely tough on clay.
     
  38. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Definitely a far stronger era than 2003-2006 which saw the #1 players to be guys like Ferrero and Roddick.

    I agree
     
  39. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    No....

    First of all you can't compare a 5 set grandslam to a 2 set little tournament.

    Second .....Rafa can lose on a hard court . It's really not his surface . But the point is that there's this other guy by the name of Djokovic.

    You now have joker, nadal and fed .
     
  40. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    You ignorant f***.

    Can't compare players who competed in a 4-year period with all the players who were active in 20 years.

    Ferrero, Roddick, Coria, Moya, Henman, Agassi, Safin, Hewitt, Nalbandian all played well in parts of 2003-2006, also Nadal was very much there at least on clay.
     
  41. augustobt

    augustobt Hall of Fame

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    Today:

    Novak, Nadal, Murray, Federer, Del Potro, Tsonga, Berdych. And the spainards when isn't against Nadal, Nadal and Almagro. Gasquet is very talented and can upset (like he did against Murray). Isner and Raonic are two bombs in fast hard courts.
     
  42. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Fair enough. That is a reasonable way to look at it and quite true. For the record I dont think any of Federer, Nadal, or Djokovic have had the best overall competition in history, not by a long shot.
     
  43. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Federer in 2003-2006 was so lucky, he didnt' have to face himself.

    GTFO
     
  44. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    There's an excuse for everything. Only for Federer can age and illness never be used against him.
     
  45. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Wasn't that the same year Nadal skipped wimbledon?

    Why do you think the defending champ slipped it?

    And take a guess who we saw in the wimby final when nadal wasn't around .....good old Roddick yet again.
     
  46. augustobt

    augustobt Hall of Fame

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    I corrected, by your logic.
     
  47. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    I think the excuse train for fed is a bit longer than that . Don't you think?
     
  48. augustobt

    augustobt Hall of Fame

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    The same Roddick that beaten Murray, right?
     
  49. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    If 2009 is included in your tough era what was Roddick doing in a Wimbledon final, then? I thought Murray, a fair representative of that tough era was good enough to take out the washed up Roddick in the semis?

    OH MY GODDDZZZZ
     
  50. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    No, not really. You've clearly demonstrated this.
     

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