Let's disspel the myth that Federer thrived against a "weak field"

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Jamin2112, May 31, 2012.

  1. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Anyone named TMF ....the massive ******* is by definition biased.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
  2. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Good thing you don't have that problem.
     
  3. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Because you simply try and explain everything away . You are able to argue that the sky is not really blue and go in forever.

    But when Federer himself and every other Goat cannot convince you then it's time to admit that you simply refuse to see that which is true.

    You plug up your ears like a child and stamp your feet . You dig in your heels and even at gunpoint you wouldn't admit it.
     
  4. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    If Federer wins its an argument against him, if Djok and Nadal loose its an argument for them. This is circular arguing at its simplest. Which is why, after 1653 posts, the OP still stands. I rest my case. Honourable mention for Night and Order for stamina. They are the beasts of TW.
     
  5. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Is Federer and very other goat biased as well?
     
  6. BigServer1

    BigServer1 Legend

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    I haven't explained anything away. I don't know if you've noticed, but I haven't been the one making excuses for Fed's losses. I'm not trying to "explain things away".

    Your premise is that the top 3 are all that matters in tennis. I disagree. It's really as simple as that.

    Additionally, the talking heads and past and present players are all representing tennis. Each one of them is attempting to gain support and interest in tennis, especially the people in the United States, where tennis sorely lacks popularity and viewership. Additionally, the media deals in hyperbole, so forgive me for not blindly buying in to everything said on TV and in interviews.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
  7. Emet74

    Emet74 Professional

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    Circular reasoning. Djoko and Nadal are better because they lost more??

    Regarding Fed, you left out Nalby who did beat him more than once in majors before he got going. Before Fed took off at the end of 2003 he had losses in tournament play to Agassi, Ferrero, Safin, Hewitt and Roddick and Nalby was his nemesis.

    In fact after Fed won 2003 Wimby he lost later that year to Nalby twice, Ferrero, Roddick and Hewitt.

    He came into 2003 TMC on the back of all those losses, not to mention that he'd never beaten Agassi in his career. He turned everything around at that event.

    Nadal and Djokovic took much much longer to establish dominance (outside of Nadal on clay) while once Fed broke through he was off to the races.

    That's why they have more pre-peak GS losses against other good players than him.

    That doesn't make them better.
     
  8. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

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    Nope. Sorry, doesn't make sense at all, much like the rest of your hateful posts. Just 2 matches on clay don't prove anything. Try harder.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
  9. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    We've been over the difference between domination, rivalry and golden era many a time. But you don' care for explanations so be it.
     
  10. Emet74

    Emet74 Professional

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    The Dark Knight,

    Best of five will always favor the superior player as it's a larger sample size of play. Fed's best of three clay record against Nadal is 2-5, pretty bad but better than 0-7 in best of five.

    Just as Andy Roddick has 3 best-of-three wins against Fed but none in best of five.

    By the way, outside of the TMC event where Fed has dominated, his best of three record against Nadal off clay is 1-3.
     
  11. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Why is it hateful to say that Fed beats Nadal in best of three but doesn't do as well against him in best of 5? It's actually a fact

    In best of three I am told the record is 7-8 and two of those wins were on clay....as opposed to best of 5 the record is 3-10 with zero wins on clay and actually only one non grass win.

    These are facts not hateful statements.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
  12. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

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    The fact that it's a lie.
     
  13. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    But it's not .

    10-3 best of five

    8-7 best of three
     
  14. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

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    Just 5-2 on clay so your point doesn't stand, sorry.
     
  15. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Sure it does . Feds only wins on clay against Nadal came in best of three .

    Nadal is undefeated in best of five on clay.

    It stands ....a bit to well and it's why your so angry.

    The better question is why does it make you so angry? Big deal I have a point ...so what?
     
  16. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

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    Doesn't. Two wins is not a big enough sample-size. The surface advantage for Nadal stands as it is.
     
  17. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    You can dispel a myth but you can't dispel a fact, the fact is fed benefitted greatly from the weak pigeons he played to win most of his majors against.
     
  18. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    What is the exact sample size then ?
     
  19. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

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    A more even record in best-of-three on clay which does not exist.............. Thus surface advantage and match-up advantage remains.
     
  20. Jamin2112

    Jamin2112 Banned

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    Which "weak pigeons" are we talking about? The level of playing in professional tennis over time, as in any sport, is a monotonically increasing function. It's not like it took a sudden downturn for a few years. People keep forgetting that Roddick and Safin used to be good players.

    One other thing: Federer was not cut out for the modern baseline game on slow hard courts. He is by nature an aggressive player who plays best like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlTbDY9p8r4 or this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz77Oy6mjnM. Nadal is a clay court expert who could easily transition his player to the slow hard courts. Djokovic entered when the courts when the courts were slow, so he was ready from the beginning. The fact that Federer has been able to play so well against grinders is amazing. Oh, and there's still the fact that he:

    (1) Is able to keep up with a 1-handed backhand
    (2) Never has forfeited a match because of injury; always plays through, even when he's sick
    (3) Is 31
     
  21. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Roddick was good for a couple of years now safin was a real talent but unfortunately was an idiot that would be out smoking and drinking the night before matches.


    The powerhouse players that were on top when fed took over were the likes of hewitt, juan carlos ferrer, burnt out agassi and other weaklings. Just check the list of his opponents in the majority of his major victory's.
     
  22. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    And where are they now?

    Ferrero is ranked I believe 17....the former #1 disappeared when Nadal came on the scene

    Roddick former #1 not in the top 10

    Agassi limped out years ago

    Safin retired ....he was never a constant

    Blake....well where is he?

    Hewitt....what's his rank?

    Coria....destroyed by Nadal...he quit

    Gaudio....gone

    Gonzo....gone

    Bagdatis .....who?

    Philopusis .....was great on a reality show of milfs

    Verekman....or whatever his name is....nothing


    I mean not one of them made it anywhere. 28 out the last 29 won by the fearsome three.

    3 goats > 1 goat.
     
  23. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    By the way, tennis players (and all competitors i guess) are biased. You would be hard pressed to find one who said: "Oh I lost a step or two in the last years...". And of course if they did they would be accused of making excuses.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2012
  24. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Roddick was top ten for ten years, not bad. Asking where players are who have stopped playing, or are in the twilight of their career is really uhm unintelligent. And that Federer is part of your fearsome three in the end of his career is only a an argument in his favour (for the umpteenth time..).
     
  25. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Dont let facts get in the way of Nighty Knight.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2012
  26. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    If he was so much better than all his competition why couldn't he beat a teenager? Seriously, the competition around now is far tougher than 04-07. Fed even lost to teenage Andy Murray in 2006. Berdych was also a teen I believe when he first beat Fed and so was Gasquet.

    That's 4 teenage players Fed lost to from 04-07. Djokovic also beat him when he was barely 20 (turned 20, 2 months before notching up his first win against Fed) in 07. So in his dominant years, most of the losses he was suffering from, were against players aged 20 or under that currently make up the top 10. So Fed was THAT much better than the rest from 04-07 but lost against guys from the current crop who were in their teens at the time? Hmmmmm does NOT make sense at all.

    It's because the new generation is actually tougher than the old. Tell me when did Hewitt, Ferrero, Roddick, Gonzalez, Baghdatis, old Agassi & Davydenko ever beat Fed during this period? Only Safin (1W) and Nalbandian (3W) were able to beat him during this period. Sure you could talk about Canas and guys like Volandri, Hrbaty and Costa who also beat him during that period, but they were never slam threats, much like Gasquet. Out of the slam threats there was only Safin and Nalby during that period that actually beat him, but they were never consistent enough to make slam or even masters semi's and finals to challenge him often enough even though they were in their peaks.

    The fact that Rafa and Novak have lost to players in the current generation in majors show that they have the game to challenge them. Those guys have also beaten Fed in slams apart from Murray. but Murray does have a winning h2h against him...

    So, I'm afraid it is you who doesn't have a case. And this is based on FACTS not some rubbish that you came up with that Fed was THAT much better than the rest, even though the "rest" we are talking about were stronger than the current generation. If Fed >>>> his generation, and his gen >>>> current gen, then Fed MUST be >>>>>>>> current gen, but that CANNOT be the case because he lost to them while they were teenagers and he was in his peak, not prime but in his PEAK.
     
  27. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Very good post that tells the facts.
     
  28. Emet74

    Emet74 Professional

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    The Order,

    Your distortions abound.

    I don't even know whether Roddick, Nalby etc were better than Berdych, Tsonga, Murray but certainly nothing you have said proves it.

    As I posted earlier, Fed lost to Agassi, Roddick, Safin, Ferrero, Hewitt and Nalby before he became world number 1. In fact in the summer after his first wimbledon title he went on to lose to Nalby twice, and also Roddick Ferrero and Hewitt.

    He turned things around at the 2003 TMC and began to dominate the tour.

    How is that different from Nadal and Djoko becoming more consistant recently and regularly beating players like Tsonga and Berdy. If Nadal were still regularly losing to players to Tsonga, Gonzalez and Blake in slams as he used to, he wouldn't be the player he is now.

    As for the wins you mention of teenaged Murray, Berdy and Gasquet against Fed, gimme a break.

    Re Berdy and Gasquet:
    Yes Fed can sometimes struggle against an unknown and these guys played well in their first matches against him and surprised him. After those initial surprise losses, he notched 8 straight win against each, not falling again to Berdych until 2010 and Gasquet til 2011.

    Murray: I'll agree Murray has a tricky game for Fed, but it would be wrong to say Murray was "beating him at his peak" given they only played two matches before 2008, with only 1 loss for Fed. That was Cincy 2nd round, and while Murray I'm sure did some good things, the context is not super-different to Fed's loss to Hrbaty in Cincy round 1 in 2004. Fed was just unable to effectively transition from Canada to Cincy before the institution of the bye in 2007. I didn't see the Murray match but I saw his first round which was an evening match and he looked awful in it and given that he had to play Murray the very next morning I wasn't at all surprised to see him go down. I mean I'm not trying to diss Murray; Fed may well have survived against a lesser opponant, but there's only so much you can read into one match that took place in specific circumstances.
     
  29. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Who cares if Nadal gave Roger problems because it's been mentioned for the upteempth time that Nadal is the worst match up for Roger in the history of tennis. Nadal was never better than Roger because the true test is against the field, which he wasn't as consistent as Roger. Nadal can beat Federer(because of the match up), but then losing to a lesser players means nothing. At the end of the day, it was Roger who won 3 slams/year & WTF, and Nadal only won 1 slam. Old Davydenko have beaten Nadal, but Nadal is better than him against the field, thus more accomplish. Losing to Davydenko is not going to make Nadal lose any sleep at night because it doesn't take away all of his slam titles.

    I don't buy into this crap about teenage Nadal. He's a early bloomer and was a great player already in 2005. In fact, it was the only year that he won 11 titles(including 1 slam, 4 MS). If you guys knock old Fed for losing to players like Berdych, Murray, Nole, etc., then Nadal is even worse after he won his 1st slam.

    Here are his losses after 2005 FO:

    1 Waske
    2 Muller
    3 Berdych
    4 Blake
    5 Clement
    6 Moya
    7 Hewitt
    8 Ferrero
    9 Youznhy
    10 Johansson
    11 Malisse
    12 Guccione
    13 Gonzalez
    14 Nole
    15 Mahut
    16 Monaco
    17 Ferrer
    18 Nalbandian
    19 Tsonga
    20 Seppi
    21 Roddick
    22 Davydenko
    23 Ferrero
    24 Murray
    25 Simon
    26 Monfils
    27 Del Potro
    28 Solerling
    29 Cilic
    30 Ljubicic
    31 Lopez
    32 Bagdatis
    33 Garcia-Lopez
    34 Melzer
    35 Dodig
    36 Fish
    37 Mayer
    38 Verdasco
    39 Kohlschreiber
    More to come in the future !!

    Keep in mind many of these players are old now, Fed owns them while Nadal losing to them which further proof that Nadal enjoy the immense match up advantage over Federer. Also, when Fed loses, it was either in the final or late rounds, or to the eventual champion. But Nadal have countless of bad losses in the early rounds, low rank players which many end up getting destroyed by Fed in the final.

    Federer is a greater/better player than Nadal, hands down.
     
  30. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Read emets post.
    And you pick and choose, some losses count and some does not at your convenience. If Fed wins its because it is weak competition, and if he looses its because he is weak, we have heard it ok. He met the gamut and came up plus 90% three years in a row. Live with it.
    And when did I say Feds gen >>>> current gen? Stop misrepresenting.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2012
  31. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    If I said Feds gen >>>> current gen, you would have a case, because I would be as dumb as you. But even in that case, you would not have a case, because we would just be equally dumb. Such is your "case"....
     
  32. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Yah with the exception of Roddick all gone . They haven't retired ....they just suck.

    Ferrero the former #1 of the weak era is playing Joker in the first round of Wimbledon.

    He never left he just got blown away by the new generation . So is Blake , baghdatis and gonzo just retired ....but he was busy getting blown away as was
    Hewitt.

    And yes obviously Feds still around because he is a goat and always was....

    My argument has always been 3 goats > 1 goat....

    For those mentally challenged that means

    Fed, joker & Nadal > just Federer alone with no one to compete with .
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2012
  33. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Andy Murray would have won in another era - Andre Agassi

    British number one Andy Murray would have won multiple Grand Slam titles if he had played in another era, Andre Agassi has told BBC Radio 5 live.

    World number four Murray has seen 28 of the last 29 majors won by Rafael Nadal, Novak Djokovic and Roger Federer.

    Agassi, who won eight Grand Slams, said: "In any other generation he would have multiple Slams and if he was in my generation I would have a lot less.
     
  34. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Pat Cash feels Djokovic has been showing better performance than 16-time Grand Slam champion Roger Federer, because Serbian has dominated greater opponents in the men’s singles like Rafael Nadal, Andy Murray and Mardy Fish. Cash said Murray and Nadal also very tough players, where the players is having the ability to return back strongly any time in the match. He added Jo-Wilfried Tsonga of France is another tough player, who is having the most of the chances to make his appearance in the ATP World Tour Finals.
     
  35. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    you are seriously the most annoying poster ever on these boards. There's a difference between having your opinion and literally shoving it down everyone's throats. Give it a rest. I honestly am hoping they ban you so I dont have to see your crap posts everyday.
     
  36. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    It wasn't my opinion it was Agassi's and pat cash opinion

    All I did was print their words.

    I'm sorry it hurts.
     
  37. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    Puerto y Galgo....
    1. Double space lines
    2. Resorting to former pro's words in circular arguments
    3. Repeating ad-nauseaum.
    you are the master of disguise KING OF ACES...
     
  38. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Keep up ....I'm now "the order".

    Wait a minute.....you have double spaced lines ....are you the king of aces? ;-)
     
  39. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    hummmm no! besides stubborn and dumb are you also blind?
     
  40. billnepill

    billnepill Hall of Fame

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    Wow Mardy Fish even
     
  41. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Well that's a good counter to my points.

    You really don't have any do you?
     
  42. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Well if you don't think Fed's gen >>>> current gen, then you're admitting that current get is >>>> Fed's gen.

    And no they are not equal, no generation is.

    Also, never said Fed was weak if he lost, just saying more of the current crop could beat him while he was in his peak and they were teens whilst his gen couldn't beat him apart from 2 guys that had talent but never had the consistency to be a threat to him at majors. Just proves there are more players from the current crop that had game to beat peak Fed than previous gen, which in turn proves that the current gen players are tougher.
     
  43. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Fed/Nadal/Nole are playing in the SAME generation.
     
  44. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Let's check out the respective records and understand that Nadal was born on March 6, 1986 and Federer was born on August 8, 1981.

    http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Rafael-Nadal.aspx?t=mr

    http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Roger-Federer.aspx?t=mr

    Federer's won 74 tournaments to Nadal's 50 tournaments. Fairly close considering Nadal's almost five years younger. About even. It's about five tournament a year for Nadal to catch up and I think he's up to that.

    Nadal wins at an 82.8% to Federer's 81.5. Very close with an edge to Nadal. In case anyone's curious I don't believe Federer's winning percentage was higher five years ago.

    Federer has won 16 majors in 53 attempts for 30.2%. Nadal's won 11 majors in 32 attempts for 34.4%. By percentage Nadal's ahead but Federer has still won five extra majors. Close considering that Nadal have a monopoly on the French Open every year and is a threat to win all the other majors.

    Objectively in my opinion (and of course anyone can take it or leave it) while a person can argue that Federer is a greater player than Nadal, there is no reasonable argument that Federer is a MUCH GREATER player than Nadal. Now of course Federer can still add to his total.

    Now to keep up with the thread topic. No one can necessarily assume a weak or strong field. We can make subjective arguments but it is just opinions. Federer won those tournaments and majors against a world class field and no one can take that away from him.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2012
  45. 10is

    10is Professional

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    BLATANTLY wrong.
     
  46. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Check it out.

    Currently as of 6/24/2012 Federer is 846-192 for 81.5%.
    Now if we have go to the end of the 2007 season.

    He's 39-6 this year, in 2011 Federer was 64-12, 2010 he was 65-13, 2009-61-12, 2008-66-15. So since the end of 2007 he has been 295-58, a super record and a winning percentage of 83.6%. If we subtract that from his present record we have 551-134 for a winning percentage of 80.44%.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2012
  47. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Boy thats a whole lot of explanation .....

    To me it's much more simple .....Nadal is basically undefeated against fed in real tennis -a.k.a. Best of five.

    Their record is 10-3. Feds only wins came once when Nadal was 17 years old (and fed barely won) and the other two came on grass when Nadal was labeled as a clay court specialist and still relatively in diapers .

    Since that time Federer has NEVER beaten Nadal in a best of five . It's been 5 years since Fed won in a best of . And again that was Nadal at 20 on grass...barely 20....closer to 19.

    Seems to me that if you beat your opponent that badly it makes you better.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2012
  48. 10is

    10is Professional

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    I don't need to. Your entire comparitive framework is flawed, because your comparing two indviduals 5 years apart with completely disparate career growth trajectories. "Career" match winning percentages are therefore completely useless in this regard as a standard for comparision.

    Federer has played 1038 matches since 1999 ... avg. app. 74 matches per year (2012 inclusive).

    Nadal has played 703 matches since 2001 ... avg. app. 59 matches per year (2012 inclusive).
     
  49. Emet74

    Emet74 Professional

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    I guess you didn't read my post :( Shame.

    Here's some food for thought at well. Roger's sucky generation even past their prime has given some stuff for the current crop to think about: Davy, Nalby, Roddick have all had their wins against these guys since 2008, not to mention a way-past-it Safin who blew Djoko off the court in Wimby 2008 (Fed handled him easily in the semi). What does that say about the current guys?

    (won't even mention that such lower-tier Fed gen players like Blake, Youzhny and Gonzo could beat Rafa on hardcourt GS's when Rafa was already world #2)

    Btw, you lump Nalby w/ Safin as someone who could have stood up to Fed at majors but lacked consistancy. I'll grant you Safin since he got the 2005 AO win and pretty much dissapeared from serious contention after that.

    Such was not the case w/ Nalby - he and Roger played 9 times during Roger's peak from the 2003 TMC - 2006 and the record was 8-1 Federer, with the one loss coming when Roger had just gotten off crutches and was not yet fit enough for a five set match.

    Prior to 2003 TMC Nalby was Roger's nemesis and had just booted him out of Cincy and USO. They played again in the QF of the 2004 AO at Nalby's absolute peak, coming off his near win against Roddick at the USO semi in the previous GS. Many pundits believed the winner of the Nalby/Fed QF would go on the take the title and so it proved. Turning around his record against Nalby was one of the requisite keys for Roger to dominate the game. (Yes, Fed did have to overcome challenges in his career, what a shocker.)

    Which is why for me when he lost twice to Nalby at the end of 2007 that was one of the cracks I saw in the level he'd sustained the previous years. Obviously the loss to Gonzo the next week confirmed that impression.
     
  50. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Federer Nadal Joker > Roddick Ferero Federer



    .
     

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