Lew Hoad-A discussion on his career

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by pc1, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Guys obviously there are a huge (ahem) difference of opinion on what to make of the Great Lew Hoad. I'm of the opinion that Lew Hoad is one of the great players and perhaps the most talented player of all time, with the key word perhaps here because others can be included in the discussion. Please discuss.

    And yes I am doing this because of the disagreement but also because I do believe Hoad should be discussed here because at the very worst he is an interesting and super fascinating figure in the history of tennis. He had been called the GOAT to vastly overrated. Many feel at his best he was unbeatable but because of his style he could also lose to anyone when he was somewhat off.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
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  2. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I believe that Hoad, Gonzalez and Laver were the strongest ever when "on".

    Hoad was the most inconsistent of the three. A good example could be that he played very well against Gonzalez in the 1959 world series but lost several matches to Cooper and Anderson while Gonzalez beat them in every match.
     
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  3. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Here we disagree. Hoad beat all three opponents on the 1959 American tour, which was not a true round-robin and was regarded as a head to head by Gonzales himself, his only loss in such a tour.
    Hoad's record in the Ampol World Championship was 34 to 13, first place.
     
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  4. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Can someone give the known numbers of Hoad for 1959, not selective results but all tournaments played plus the main hth tours? From what i have read in other threads, he did well considering the strong opposition, but wasn't dominant. It seems, that all the top contenders in 1959, Gonzalez, Hoad, Rosewall and even Sedgman were pretty close, and indeed the contemporary rankings by Kramer, Anderson and other promoters and players were anything but unanimous. If i am right, then Hoad ranked from 1 to 4, regarding the rankings, and mostly Gonzalez was ranked Nr. 1.
     
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  5. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    You forgot that Hoad lost the American tour to Gonzalez.

    We not only disagree HERE ! We disagree almost in all matters!

    An exception could be that we agree that Rosewall was stronger than Peter Cawthorn, Ray Keldie and Vince Spadea....
     
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  6. pc1

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    I gave all the tournaments I could see from McCauley's book that I could see that Hoad participated in.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
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  7. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I think that Joe McCauley has given almost all events. An exception are those few (4 man) tournaments of (probably) July when Rosewall beat Gonzalez twice.

    I guess that Dan is the first and only man who ranked Hoad first for 1959...
     
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  8. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Some information on Hoad. Yes I know it's wikipedia but it seems to be okay.

    Incidentally Vainqueurs has Hoad winning 42 tournaments in his career. The total is probably higher.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Hoad

    Hoad was obviously a great physical specimen who could inspire awe with his almost inhuman shotmaking. Was his best better than anyone else? Possibly but we cannot ever prove that. However the fact I think it is a possibility show how talented I believe he was. I would not write that about Djokovic for example or Federer although I think they are very talented players. But it begs the question was the reason that he reached these great levels also a function of his high risk style and perhaps others like perhaps a Frankie Kovacs could have reached these heights if they played the same sort of high risk style. Bobby Riggs for example thought Kovacs' best was arguably the best and some others also believe that.

    It's clear in majors that Hoad was not invincible. In classic majors he was 2-2 with his rival Ken Rosewall and he had poor record in the Pro Majors. To be fair I believe he was perhaps past his best when he reached the finals of the Pro Majors in the 1960's.
     
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  9. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Here's the answer below.

     
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  10. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Thanks, pc1.
     
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  11. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Some stats on Lew Hoad in 1959


    Just some information on Hoad's year of 1959 in which he had another tour with Pancho Gonzalez and also toured with Cooper and Anderson.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
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  12. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I agree.

    But Hoad also lost several pro majors' finals when he was in his prime (French Pro 1958, US Pro 1958 and 1959 and even lost a couple of matches before reaching the final (Wembley 1957, 1959, French pro 1959)...
     
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  13. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Following McCauley and PC1 for 1959 i have added 32-15 (25-14) in tournament play (including 3rd and 5th place play offs) plus 42-20 in the World Series plus an unknown number of matches in a France tour with Sedgman, Rosewall, Trabert, which Trabert won. In another tour through Europe he won 11-16 (?). For the year it would be 74-35 or 67-34, if we include the latter tour 85-50. As we have discussed earlier, the percentage is good for the hard competition (always top contenders) on the pro tour, but not overwhelming.
     
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  14. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    pc1,

    Thanks for listing up Hoad's 1959 record.

    I guess Dan means the 1959 Forest Hills tournament and the 1960 Melbourne r.r. I don't know if we should rate the latter for 1959 as Dan has done.

    I have doubts if we should regard Forest Hills a s pro major. It was held only four times. But if yet why not rate the L.A. Masters as pro majors? The latter had the same strong competition as F.H.
     
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  15. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Imo Hoad is the only guy who could be legitimate GOAT without focusing too much on records.So terrific was his peak and Rosewall and Gonzalezknew ot
     
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  16. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Hoad was 11:16 in the 1959 European Grand prix tour.
     
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  17. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Fine that you post again. I almost had missed you a few days...
     
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  18. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    That's always been the question with Lew Hoad. For one match he very well close have been the GOAT but it is debatable. Yet at the same time there has been an argument that if there was a tournament in which the losers would have to jump off a bridge, then perhaps the winner would be Pancho Gonzalez because in do or die match Gonzalez may reach the highest level.

    So what do we look at for GOAT? Hoad obviously has wonderful credentials as a great player and the opinions of players who have played or people who have seen him viewed him with awe but there are also experts like Jack Kramer who felt Hoad was overrated because of his inconsistency in playing level.

    Objectively the total career accomplishments of some like Laver and Rosewall surpass Hoad easily. I don't think Hoad can stand up to some in career accomplishment. So we have to look at peak level of play and look at Hoad's best years.

    Consistency is important in evaluating greatness but you also have to look at peak level. That's always the problem with evaluating Lew Hoad.
     
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  19. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    And here's the final result of the 1959 4-man tour:

    1. Pancho Gonzales 47-15
    2. Lew Hoad 42-20
    3. Ashley Cooper 21-40
    4. Mal Anderson 13-48
     
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  20. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I was learning history
     
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  21. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Gonzalez beat Cooper and Anderson by a combined total of 34 to 0. Gonzalez was 13-15 against Hoad. Hoad was a combined 27-7 against Cooper and Anderson.

    I guess you both missed each other.
     
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  22. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    While Hoad peak may have been the best ever,the fact he never sized against Kodes will always leave a big question mark
     
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  23. pc1

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    It's funny I was just going to ask you that but decided not to. You're a mind reader.:shock:

    But I understand, any past or future GOATs will have question marks because they never played Jan Kodes. This is not true of Laver, Rosewall and Borg.:)
     
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  24. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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  25. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    From now on we should use the term BOAT because I'm getting sick of using the term GOAT.

    It's interesting that they agree by the way since they both had winning records against him. I would tend to think that they both (Gonzalez and Laver) thought of themselves as the BOAT.
     
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  26. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yeah and Newcombe and Nastase too.Bobby one and Lobb are still battling it out?
    A bit of Kodes will be needed to calm it down.and a bit of Vines too;-)
     
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  27. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Head to Heads at Hoad's peak

    BobbyOne,

    Do you have any information on Hoad's head to heads against the top player in the Old Pro Tour when he was at his peak?

    From simple heresay Kramer for example said Hoad lost most of the time to Segura but Kramer has been known to be incorrect. I'm certain he lost most of his matches to Gonzalez but what about some of the others?
     
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  28. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    We need a little wine and a sitdown with Kodes and talk about Vines.

    I am not battling with Lobb anymore. It's fruitless. Let's just write about Hoad and Kodes instead. :)
     
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  29. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Definitely a nice idea.A great czech pilsen will do
     
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  30. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Incidentally I was remiss in not writing that overall Hoad was 4-2 on classic majors finals.
     
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  31. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    a pilsen will do just fine:)
    although one pilsen is like playing one set of tennis, not really enough

    i heard a story once about how Hoad served a large beer to Newcombe on live television, only he had spiked it with a shot of whiskey. anybody else remembers that?
     
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  32. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I would love to have the aussies ranked by their drinking tank any suggestion?
     
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  33. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Yes. Newcombe had to take the spiced beer with one big strike. And he gulped it down at once. Couldn't hardly stand afterwards.
     
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  34. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    1 Hoad 20 beers to 6 wiskeys, 2 Emerson 14- 5, 3 Newcombe 12-3.
     
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  35. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    Hoad would be goat:) but even in the 80´s players like McNamara/McNamee(loved that doubles team) held up that proud beer drinking tradition,
    for example at the World Team Cup in Düsseldorf
     
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  36. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Hoad is legendary in the beverage area too.
     
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  37. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    that´s how i remembered it as well. would be nice to have that on youtube:)
     
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  38. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Maybe that's what Pancho meant when he said, "Even at my best, Hoad could beat me."

    It was cervezas versus lagers.
     
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  39. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    At least I can stress that you learnt history much better than Dan did.
     
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  40. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    pc1,

    I don't know the balances of Hoad as a pro.

    I believe that Kramer meant only the 1957 4 man tour where Segura had the edge against Hoad.

    And I know that Hoad and Rosewall were 14:14 in December 1957 (only pro matches)

    I do know that generally (amateur and pro) Hoad was 59:83 against his buddy Rosewall. But also here some matches seem to be missing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
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  41. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Don't drink Czech alcohol. 29 people died recently in Czech republic...
     
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  42. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Guys,

    I can't participate in this discussion because I'm anti-alcoholic....

    I need a clear mind to be able to disprove Dan's "arguments"....
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
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  43. Dan Lobb

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    The "selective" results were drawn together as they represent the Ampol World Championship Tour, designed to determine the overall world champion. Thus, the top pros concentrated their efforts on winning these 14 tournaments. That is why they have been collected, and they show that Hoad dominated, 34 wins against 13 losses.
    Together with a 42-20 record on the American pro championship tour, Hoad's overall record for the two world championships is 76 wins and 33 losses, an overwhelming lead over the other players.
    Yes, I consider this a greater year for Hoad in 1959 than Laver's numbers in 1969, considering the differences in the quality of the respective fields.
     
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  44. Dan Lobb

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    Strange you should say that, as Gonzales himself claimed that Hoad won the American tour over him.
    Rosewall played his most brilliant tennis in 1958 and 1959.
     
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  45. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    No, in Anderson's account of the 1959 season in World Tennis magazine, the official publication of World Tennis Inc., Kramer's organization, he lists the final results of the world championship tour, as I have, with Hoad first and Gonzales second.
    It might be well for you to realize that 14 tournaments were designated to constitute the world championship, and these events show Hoad overwhelming the field.
     
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  46. Dan Lobb

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    I think that I also anwered your question in great detail.
    No problem.
     
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  47. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Again, you have not indicated any awareness (neither did McCauley) of the Ampol World Championship Tour, which was constituted by 14 of the tournaments.
    Some people can neglect the most basic facts.
    The schedule concluded with the Kooyong event in Jan 1-7 1960.
     
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  48. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    At Roland Garros in 1958, Hoad led Rosewall in the final, but wrenched his back reaching for a ball.
    The "US Pro" was not a major event by any standard.
    Wembley did not rate inclusion in the top 14 designated tournaments for 1959.
     
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  49. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Actually, there were TWO championship tours in both 1958 and 1959.
    The head-to-head series, and the Ampol tournament series.
     
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  50. Dan Lobb

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    Strange, PC1, you asked me to compile the records for the Ampol series, I took some time and trouble to do that, and then you refuse to comment on the results.
    I guess the results I provided you with were too much to handle.
     
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