Lew Hoad-A discussion on his career

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by pc1, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,087
    Bobby, not "the greatest", but "the greatest PLAYER".

    This is word for word what Bedard said.

    You are continuing to confuse "the greatest PLAYER" with "the player with the greatest CAREER".

    You simply refuse to acknowledge the distinction, which these elite peers understand.
     
  2. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    Confusing Dan, I'm too tired to teach you tennis history and logic anymore. You will never understand, alas...

    Just a last trial: Who is the greater player: This who wins one great match against a GOAT candidate by 6-0,6-0,6-0 but doing nothing else in his career or another player who wins 30 Grand Slam tournaments but never wins a great match with that clear score?.

    "Greatest player" can mean both but your players obviously referred to playing strength, not to overall success.

    Hoad has done much too little to call him the GOAT.
     
  3. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,087
    I think that we are close to an agreement here, Herr von Bobby.

    However, from the quotes I gave you, it is clear that the elite peers (Lord Laver, Lord Rosewall, Lord Gonzales, Lord Stolle, Lord Bedard, Lord Buchholz, others) regard Hoad's pattern of play, peaking in major events, to be the pre-eminent measure of greatness in tennis.

    And I disagree with your assessment of Hoad's achievements.

    He was by far the top money-earner in both 1958 and 1959, and had a better overall record than Rosewall in 1956 as well.
     
  4. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,770
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    "blame"? "self-contradiction"? "aggressive"? "unfriendly"? "stubborness"?

    I beg your pardon. I merely quoted.

    "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder."
     
  5. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2012
    Messages:
    2,540
    ^ Why is BobbyOne now referring to himself in the third person?

    Pretentious, he?
     
  6. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    Dan, we are in disagreement. Hoad got more money from Kramer than Gonzalez, if I remember well, for the 1958 tour even though he lost the tour.

    You rate Kooyong as a major. Wrong.

    Hoad was only No.2 amateur in the second part of 1956. Rosewall could not play French Champ. furthermore.
     
  7. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Bobbyone, no need to belittle Hoad great 56 amateur year to win your particular battle.

    Rosewall was the better man at FH but Hoad was the better one at the other two grass court slams and he devastated a great clay court player in RG (Davidson).

    In fact, Hoad´s 56 amateur year remind me of Crawford´s 33.very very short of GS.

    5 Australian GS would´ve been great isn´t it?
     
  8. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    Innocent hoodjem, you do know that your quotings were cynical and should blame me!

    You quoted to show BobbyOne's "self-contradiction". Yes you often are aggressive towards me.

    I wrote that I was unfriendly towards Dan, not towards you.

    Dan is really stubborn , as you exactly know.

    I explained you why I wrote positively PLUS negatively to Dan but you refuse to accept my explanation because you dislike me since a long time, probably because I sometimes correct your Laver-bias.

    Oh yes, you merely quoted....
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2014
  9. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,087
    Bobby, you DID agree that rating a player by ABILITY was different from rating by CAREER, as you can read in your own post above.


    Hoad earned more on the 1958 tournament series than Gonzales, where each player was paid the same for a win, plus the bonus money pool.
    Hoad earned more than Gonzales on the hth, despite the 51-36 score, because he received MORE per win than Gonzales.

    And, no, the guarantee from Kramer was never in play, for two reasons.
    1) There was a nullity clause in Hoad's contract, so that if missed more than five straight matches due to health trouble, the guarantee was null and void
    2) The guarantee was for a record $125,000, but Hoad earned nearly $200,000 in his first year as a pro, rendering the guarantee inactive.

    Hoad won nearly $200,000 that year to Gonzales' $91,000.

    No contest.

    Kooyong was the most prestigious tournament in the pro schedule in Australia (your hero Rosewall won the event in 1962), and Kooyong was also included in the championship series, unlike Wembley or Cleveland World Pro/incl. U.S. Pro pretend championship.

    Again, the number one amateur for 1956 was Hoad, in spite of his reduced level of play after Wimbledon, after which his back injury flared up seriously.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2014
  10. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,770
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    C'est dommage: psychoanalysis is not your metier.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2014
  11. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    Dan, As a true Capitalist you focus much too much on money and guarantee.

    Wembley and US Pro not part of a series does NOT mean they were less important!

    Rosewall was the best amateur when he turned pro dominating Hoad in the 1956 period after Wimbledon till year-end.
     
  12. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    hoodjem, please write in English.

    Oh yes, I understand a bit of psychoanalysis. Sigmund Freund, another Vienna Visionary, could tell rather much about your strange soul and aggressive behaviour!

    Freud said: The voice of reason is faint. You seem to prefer a loud voice!

    It's better I will ignore your unfriendly comments against a serious poster...
     
  13. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,770
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    Thank you for the many compliments. Knowing the source, they are high praise indeed.










    (Sigmund Freud is completely discredited today. No present-day psychologists pay any attention to his ideas or notions now, except as historically quaint and indicative of his own foibles and prejudices. His theories have gone the way of alchemy. He was the Berggasse visionary . . . in 1891.)
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2014
  14. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2012
    Messages:
    2,540
    Is this true?

    I must say I'm not a student of psychology but my impression was that Freud and Jung were the godfathers of the subject. Certainly you still hear about the Oedipus complex and things of that nature, which Freud theorised about.
     
  15. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2008
    Messages:
    2,411
    No,it's not
    You are right about Freud and Jung being considered the godfathers. The fact that psychoanalysis has advanced in the last 100 years doesn't mean Freud is discredited only that we know more today than in the past
     
  16. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    14,444
    Location:
    On the road from would of to would have
    Just being the inventor of something doesn't mean your views on it can't become outdated as the field progresses. Many of Freud's views these days are no longer accepted.
     
  17. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,087
    Bobby, why do they call it PROFESSIONAL tennis?

    And why does one player consistently get the most money?

    Wembley and Cleveland were not included in the Kramer championship series because they were not managed by the Kramer tour.

    "The series" was designed by Kramer to determine the rankings of the pros.

    That IS important.

    Rosewall was offered less money to turn pro then Hoad.
    For 1956 as a whole, Hoad had the better numbers, except after Wimbledon when his back problem flared up.
     
  18. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    Dan, Are You SCROOGE???
     
  19. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,770
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    They were. Just as Plato or Aristotle are today considered the fathers of Western philosophy. But no one uses their conclusions today in the professional world of philosophy. (They are much studied for their contributions to the historical evolution of philosophy.)

    Aristotle believed in spontaneous generation, and concluded that the earth was the center of the universe, that the heart is the thinking organ, and the brain cools the body.

    The Oedipus Complex is still discussed today in literary theory, and an interesting historical interpretation on a character's motivations. Freud concluded that most women's behaviors are a result of "penis-envy."

    No contemporary medical person today gives these ideas any diagnostic credence.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
  20. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,087
    Herr Bobby, my wife and I made a quick road trip to Augusta, Georgia just before Christmas and saw a stage musical production of "Christmas Carol", where the non-believer Scrooge was converted to belief.

    Wonderful.
     
  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Überfeldmarschall Bobby I would add...
     
  22. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    Dan, Great you saw that musical. Now we can only hope that D.L. will be ready to convert to a tennis fan who avoids that prize money fixation and who becomes more realistic regarding a certain player from Sydney (not Rosewall) ;-)
     
  23. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    kiki, Guess you are British as you still insinuate that the Germans/Austrians are still martial in their thinkings...

    By the way, correct is "Oberfeldmarschall".

    You don't know that I am a peaceful man even though I can be rather aggressive against nastiness and posters using wrong facts...

    But I'm not 100% pacifist. I do believe that Democracies must defend their achievements against murderous organizations like Boko Haram in order to save many people!
     
  24. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,087
    I thought that you regarded Roche's top spot in money for 1968 as the definitive measure?
     
  25. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,087
    Bobby, I understand the changes in German mentality.

    My father and uncle and their cousins served six years each in WWII.
    One cousin was a scout behind the lines in Italy.
     
  26. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Thanks for correction
    My english and german will improve here
    I never meant you were authoritarian but rather an authority...in Rosewall and many past greats facts
    I do quite agree with your last sentence
     
  27. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    Dan, Even though Roche was great in 1968 and 1969, Laver won more prize money than him in 1968 (more than 70 000 Dollars). Roche won "only" more than 63 000 Dollars.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2014
  28. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    kiki, Thanks for the nice words.

    I thought English is your native language.

    Regarding democracies: They have the right to defend themselves. But sometimes some "good" countries even take the right to fight in far away regions for the wrong reasons: oil...
     
  29. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Bobby I agree with you here but lets get back to rackets
    Thanks to guys like Laver and Rosewall mediocrites could make 10 times more money than Laver and Rosewall themselves
    Life is unfair
     
  30. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,087
    Bobby, Roche was #1 on WCT in money, second to Newk in wins.
    You rated him #1 because of money.
     
  31. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7,668
    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    It's true Kiki, yet players like Gonzalez, Hoad, Rosewall, and Laver will be immortal in the eyes of tennis observers because what they did for the sport and how they played will be remembered. Meanwhile, many players that followed did benefit from being able to play in s sport that already had a lot of money brought into largely due to what past greats contributed. Many such players, while making more prize money, do not have the same lasting impact on the sport. Those past greats wouldn't change anything and would say that they were fortunate to have the opportunities they had. They helped make tennis a global sport that will be around for a very long time, with such a rich history in tact.

    Lew Hoad

    [​IMG]
     
  32. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7,668
    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2014
  33. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Absolutely.

    Those pics are nice, as usual

    I always looked the eyes of Hoad, very appealing, like a bit cocky and a bit a jester.Very appealing character, one of the absolutest.It has an aura of self conscious superiority that many will confuse with indolence.
     
  34. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    Dan, You are confused. I never rated Roche No.1!!!

    Roche was only fourth in WCT list, behind Ralston, Newcombe and Buchholz both regarding % and tournament wins.
     
  35. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Bucholz had more experience than Barthes,Taylor,Pilic, and maybe also than Drysdale, those 4 are the remaining Handsome Eight-
     
  36. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,087
    Roche was #1 in money.

    Newk was #1 in tournaments won.

    Most accept Roche as 1 based on money.

    Read the list, please.
     
  37. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,770
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    Money schmoney.

    Money does not equate to accomplishments.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2014
  38. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,087
    I was referring to McCauley's book, in case you missed it.

    Newcombe had the most tournament wins, Roche the most money.

    Those are the numbers that count.

    You don't think that anyone keeps a money list today?

    Really?
     
  39. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    Dan, Here McCauley book's official 1968 WCT final standings:

    1) RALSTON
    2) Newcombe
    3) Buchholz
    4) Roche

    Learn to read!!!
     
  40. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    I think they didn´t have a sort of final championship like Dallas in 68, right'
     
  41. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    kiki, You are right. 1970 New York was the first such event as predecessor to Dallas. In 1970 Laver beat Rosewall in the final.
     
  42. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    But did it belong to the WCT tour? I haven´t seen a conexion here with what would become the Dallas finals from 1971.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2014
  43. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    kiki, It was called the First Annual Tennis Champions Classic and I believe the (nine) participants were all WCT players as NTL had quit their activity.

    You are right, it was not the climax of a long series but there were qualification rounds and a 4 man summit tournament.
     
  44. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,087
    Of course, the precursor to all this was the Kramer tournament series and bonus money pool organized in 1958 and 1959.
     
  45. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    OK, so it could make the first WCT finals.How did it end up?
     
  46. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,087
    I didn't realize that Hoad played in that event.
     
  47. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,087
    There was no award for PERCENTAGE WINS.

    The numbers that count are TOURNAMENT wins (Newcombe) and MONEY (Roche), which you neglected to report from McCauley's list.
     
  48. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,087
    The First Annual Tennis Champions Classic was a series of challenge matches, played in early 1970 and again in early 1971.
     
  49. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    OK thanks.Do you think we could give it the value of a WCT championship?

    Not certainly with a RR format.
     
  50. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    dan, Hoad beat Orantes at the Italian Open in 1970, right? which would be his last important win as a pro player?
     

Share This Page