Lew Hoad-A discussion on his career

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by pc1, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Bobby, give us a reply, not a novel. Condense!

    No, I do NOT rate the Facis as a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP, although you attempt to puff the minor European tours.

    But in 1962, there were NO pro championship tours, the Facis stood out.

    Again, you confuse armchair experts with true experts, the players, who generally rank Hoad as GOAT in playing level.

    "Achievements" mean very little if they are not backed by a high standard of play.

    I would say that "peak" form should be evident in the major events, it is no use if, like Kovacs they occur when everyone has an off week in a secondary event.

    Hoad peaked in the major events.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2014
  2. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Bobby, the corner you are in is trying to blame me for the opinions of Rosewall, Gonzales, Laver, Bedard, Buchholz and others who rate Hoad as greatest ever.

    You have not addressed this, but try again to change the discussion.
     
  3. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Bobby, Kramer left Rosewall and Laver OUT of his top twenty group.

    Hello!
     
  4. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    How do you determine peak play?

    You should look at a major event.

    "Everyone I know"?

    Obviously, that excludes the greats who played against Hoad.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2014
  5. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Do you mean an entire fortnight?

    That is true.
     
  6. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Kramer's 1979 list is very peculiar, idiosyncratic, one could almost say biased.

    It has always seemed as if he had some sort of "axe to grind" in his rankings. His top-6 list includes Tilden, Budge, Vines, and Gonzales. These four are very justifiable. But he also includes Perry and Riggs, two players with rather questionable resumes.

    And most pertinently, it leaves Hoad off--deliberately.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2014
  7. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    Even if all those players said that Hoad was the greatest on all surfaces in terms of peak play (dubious, but let's say they did), it still doesn't mean that he is the GOAT.

    I'm sure that Laver would be more than willing to concede that Hoad, on his best day, was unplayable - but you can be damn sure that Rod would rather be slightly less unplayable yet the owner of two Calendar Year Grand Slams.

    What kind of player must Hoad have been if he occasionally reached stellar heights, but could never keep it up across a whole season or a career? Hardly an example of a psychologically strong player.

    I posited a hypothetical Safin with a W and RG title. That Safin wouldn't be the GOAT either (he would not be considered greater than Federer or Nadal by anyone except his biggest fanboys).

    At the end of the day, if your definition of GOAT is highest peak play, then fine, but understand that the vast majority of the world does not rank GOAT in that way.
     
  8. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    Perry doesn't have a questionable resume.
     
  9. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Alright. Non-contender, then.

    I rank Perry as a very, very good player but definitely outside the top-10 all-time. Certainly not up there with Gonzales, Tilden, Laver, Borg.
     
  10. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    I mean the final of Wimbledon, RG, U.S. Open, Australian, Davis Cup, or the equivalent of these.

    How does someone rate a best-of-a-hundred tour?
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2014
  11. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Yes, indeed.

    Leaves out Hoad, Laver, Rosewall, Sedgman, all of whom I would include in the top ten.

    In 2006 Kramer listed chronologically Vines, Budge, Gonzales, Hoad, and Federer.

    A little better, but still no Laver or Rosewall. And no Sampras, whose game was similar to Kramer's.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2014
  12. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Phoenix, if getting these giants to acclaim you GOAT doesn't mean that he was the GOAT, then something must be very wrong with how the world works.

    No, Hoad kept it up for several seasons, more so than Gonzales or Rosewall in 1958 and 1959. Mulloy gave Hoad 1961 over Gonzales. What are you thinking of?

    If Safin had added a Wimbledon final against Fed and an RG final against Nadal to his two rubber slams, I would rate him highly.

    As it is, Safin was a rubber champ only.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2014
  13. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, I'm coming out a bit from my ban on you because it's not about tennis.

    I'm not sure if "they share a meal". I rather would say Fidelio (=Leonore) gives her husband a piece of bread.

    The name "God" is spoken only once ar twice, as far as I know. Your associations to religion are typical for you as a religious fundamentalist.

    Nobody else would see a similarity to the communion! And: the trumpets in the opera when the minister, not a duke! is coming, play a fanfare of hope and relief whereas the trumpets of doomsday announce death and Last Judgment!!!!!

    I believe that Schiller was not really religious. His words about a loving father tell about a rather indefinite deity. They don't are "There surely dwells a loving Father". You translated wrongly; no blame on you. The chorus sings "there must dwell a loving father" in the sense "but we cannot prove it"...

    My brother, a Protestant pastor, blamed Schiller for that indefinite stated view. (and I blame him for that criticism...).

    This passage is not the last sung words of the symphony. In fact words of the first strophe are repeated afterwards, especially "This kiss of the whole world" that were hammered home as you say.

    What parts don't you distort, my (ex)-friend???

    I believe the Missa Solemnis was begun in 1817.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
  14. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Hello! Hello! Hello Dan! Hello Dan L! Hello Dan Lobb!!! Awake and get serious or stop posting in this forum!

    A second time I ignore my ignore list in your case because it's simply too much to let write you such nonsense without contradiction and disproving!

    Kramer (read his book "The Game"!) of course included Rosewall and Laver into his list of the 21 greatest players of all time, Otherwise he would be the IDIOT GOAT! Either you cannot read or you are trying to make fools out of your readers!

    Kramer rated Laver and Rosewall in the second echelon directly after his top six (or top eight; he is insecure about Cochet and Lacoste) where he mentions "Laver, HOAD !!!!!!, and Rosewall" as the first ones before all other great players.

    In the same book he gives Laver five "open era" Wimbledon and US Open titles for 1963 to 1967 and Rosewall even seven such titles for the 1960 to 1967 period!!! And you dare to write that Jake was not impressed enough by these two giants of tennis???

    It's a shame. Please get serious and give yourself and me and probably many other readers a break, if you want even with the help of a God...
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    hoodjem, Well said.
     
  16. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    OK, in that case I agree.
     
  17. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    But they didn't acclaim him as the GOAT - only as the player with the highest peak play (which is not how the vast majority define the GOAT).

    This discussion will just go around in circles so no point continuing it. I think I've proven my point though.
     
  18. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I wouldn´t go as far as stating that Perry had a questionable resumee
     
  19. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Perry had only one year as No.1.
     
  20. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    yes but only Budge equals his record in the 30´s, not even Crawford does¡¡
     
  21. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    This discussion is so predictable now.

    The next post will be BobbyOne talking about how Vines was far greater than Perry, with his supposedly 6 or 7 years as No 1.

    Then Kiki will mention how Vines had a great marketing agent, and wouldn't it be great if Kodes had a similar marketing agent.

    Then Dan L will state that none of this really matters, as Hoad would've beaten them all blindfolded with one arm behind his back, before lifting up a table with Vines, Kodes and Perry all seated on it, and hurling it from Wimbledon's Centre Court to the Philippe Chatrier Court at Roland Garros.

    Finally Mustard will quote the statistics of Nadal's rivalry against Djokovic, apropos of nothing.
     
  22. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    On the road from would of to would have
    ^^

    Then Phoenix will muse about what will or won't be included in Rosewall's obituary. For example his record in Wimbledon finals will be included ;)
     
  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    while trying to desperately fill Sampras in the conversation:)
     
  24. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Too funny!

    :lol:(Very good indeed.)
     
  25. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    I hope not to read Rosewall's obituary for many years, but it will certainly mention his failure to win Wimbledon :twisted:
     
  26. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I haven't posted in a while but I love it that all of you acknowledge that history repeats itself.

    Groundhog Day.:)
     
  27. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Vines even outdoes it by far.
     
  28. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Phoenix, Maybe your best post so far! ;-)

    I have just done my best in your sense...
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
  29. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    NatF, I'm sure you are right. There will be written:" The player with the worst failure" and "Might he be more successful in heaven (or hell?)"...
     
  30. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    pc1, Welcome back on TT as I rate you as one of the very best posters here because of your great knowledge on tennis history and your excellent analyses of the players' strengths and weaknesses.
     
  31. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    You do not see bread and wine as relevant to communion?

    The "last trumpet" in Fidelio does not presage judgment?

    These are not my observations, but of a noted opera scholar, Owen Lee, who was not a fundamentalist, but a professor of classics at University of Toronto.

    The last sung words in the text are "MUSS er wohnen", are they not? Hammered home three times, with emphasis, to end the symphony.

    Please, listen to the message of Beethoven, my friend.

    Schiller was not Beethoven. Beethoven's Christian faith formalized when he composed Missa Solemnis 1816 (research and early sketches) to 1822, which included intense study of traditional Christian music.

    I refer you to the bicentenary volume "The Creative World of Beethoven" ed. Paul Henry Lang, 1970, the keynote articles consisting of Warren Kirkendale's study of the Missa Solemnis genesis, and "The Eroica, Beethoven's New Way", by Philip Downs (my professor, with whom I discussed this article in 1971.)

    Bobby, the true hotbed of Viennese opera is here in Toronto.

    Michael Schade now lives in my town near Toronto, and I had the same vocal teacher as Schade at U.W.O., where Dr. Philip Downs authored the foremost studies of Beethoven's music.

    The two greatest Florestan's, Heppner and Vickers, live in Scarborough and Orangeville near Toronto.

    Vickers and his family derive from Prince Albert where I was born, and our fathers worked together.

    The true home of Beethoven and Wagner interpretation is in the true north.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
  32. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Yes, you are right, Kramer excluded Laver and Rosewall from his top group of players, and rated them below Perry and Riggs.

    Was he perhaps a little condescending to these smaller players?
     
  33. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Phoenix, these giants DO use peak play to rate the GOAT.

    Just look at their comments.

    THAT, I think, proves the point.
     
  34. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Phoenix, what is the subject of this thread?
     
  35. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    And too fallacious.
     
  36. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Sorry: I forgot the wine. But I'm sure only Florestan has consumed it and the bread.

    It's not a LAST trumpet. The fanfare announces the arrival of the (fair) minister and stops the intended murder. No judgment at all.

    You err regarding the last words of the Ninth Symphony. Believe me, I have heard this masterpiece maybe 50 times and I don't get tired even though European Union has stolen the "Song of Joy" melody which is originally a Mozart melody from young Mozart...

    No comment on Toronto, your teachers and other personal issues.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
  37. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Indeed, only Florestan, who sings the first riveting words of the second act, which are "Gott, Gott!" with emphasis.

    The warning trumpet in Fidelio is SYMBOLIC of the last trumpet, of course.

    Michael Schade also owns a house in Wien and sings regularly at the State Opera, and is an Austrian Kammersanger.

    He was featured on the Vienna Philharmonic's Summer Concert last year singing from Lohengrin, broadcast on PBS.
     
  38. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, I'm glad to ignore you (mostly) for the next time. You even are nasty enough to not apologize for your wrongly quoted Kramer ranking list. That way you destroy
    any fruitful discussion!
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
  39. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    I have read the last words many times, following along with Furtwangler's great performances, and they read "MUSS er wohnen", emphasis in the performance.
     
  40. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, I must disappoint you: The Wiener Staatsoper is still more important than Toronto. It ranks among the top four (with New York, London and Milano).

    A friendly tip: If you hear more great music (especially Schubert! Beethoven! Bach and Mozart) you will realize you don't need any God for happiness.

    Look what your God has done in history and now (at least he (she?) does not stop the following): 1000s of wars, the Holocaust, Earthquakes, floods etc with Millions of victims, murder, ****, Millions of animals killed by other animals or "human" beings.....
     
  41. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Bobby, you missed the main point, Kramer's downgrading of Laver and Rosewall.

    In 2006, he doesn't mention them at all.
     
  42. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, if you just read a symphony, you never will understand it.... You must listen to that opus!!!. Beethoven repeated the words of the first strophe at the very end of the maybe best symphony at all: "Freude, schöner Götterfunken"... and..."diesen Kuss der ganzen Welt" as the very last words sung (I agree: "hammered") before the finally instrumental and very modern "Beat" or "Rock" end.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
  43. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    D.L., I seldom miss a point but you are missing usually 27 points in a post with 26 words. Vive la difference!

    Giving Muscles four Wimbledon titles is not exactly a kind of downgrading. Ask Phoenix...
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
  44. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    I will reread my copy of the performance words, Bobby.

    I will report to you my findings. I doubt that I am deaf on this.
     
  45. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Here is Kramer's list:

    Vines, Budge, Gonzales, Hoad, Federer.

    No Laver or Rosewall.

    In 1979, he rates Perry and Riggs above Rosewall and Laver.
     
  46. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Lew Hoad? His career?
     
  47. PDJ

    PDJ Hall of Fame

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    Beethoven I'm aware of...marvellous tennis player despite his 'balance' issues... But who's Lew Hoad?? ;)
     
  48. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    famous austrialian composer, from what i´ve heard:wink:
     
  49. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    "Austrialian"? Austrian? Australian? Austian? Faustian?

    Born in Bonn, capital of the Electorate of Köln.
     
  50. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    Lew Hoad?:confused:
     

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