Lew Hoad-A discussion on his career

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by pc1, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan (I should ignore you but...): Kooyong was not THE centre of Australian tennis. As you know the A. Champs. changed the venues every year.

    YOU were wrong regarding Masters 1957 and 1958: You just "forgot" them to mention because your idol did not win at least one match out of the twelve he played!!!
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2014
  2. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Good news for you: I'm awaken or awoken (if my English is correct)!!

    Who are my idols (in judging tennis history)? Oh, I see: Bud Collins. Yes, he is a true expert.

    If Laver and Rosewall are real experts, then why, f.i., is Laver ranking Federer first but Rosewall Federer ranking only fourth?
     
  3. BobbyOne

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    Dan, I would add 1970 Madrid SF beat Orantes 6-3,6-3
     
  4. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Hoad must have played a lot of spanish events since he lived there.

    Remember he was the unofficial coach of the spanish DC team that played the finals vs Australia in 1967?

    had Spain won the rubber...what would have been the australian reaction to that?
     
  5. BobbyOne

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    kiki, I'm sure Hoad's assistance has helped the Spaniards. Don't know what Australia's reaction might have been.
     
  6. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Kooyong was the most highly regarded facility and surface, White City was actually demolished.

    I think that Kooyong received a disproportionate number of Aussie championships, like Glen Abbey gets most of the Canadian Open golf titles.

    No, I included the LA Masters in the tournament series calculations.

    How did you miss that?
     
  7. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    The experts agree on Hoad.

    Wachen sie auf!
     
  8. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Agreed.....
     
  9. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    The Australian was held in different venues as long as 1969 or 1970.White City, Milton Grove,Brisbane and Kooyong...have forgotten the name of the club at Brisbane, do you recall it?
     
  10. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    He had retired officially at the end of 1966, and emerged from retirement to play the 1967 Wimbledon Pro, retiring again shortly thereafter.
     
  11. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Very impressive match considering everything. Gonzalez was still very strong and to defeat him while being out of tournament practice is a tremendous feat.
     
  12. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Melbourne 55 times (at Kooyong after 1927), Sydney 17 times, other cities only a few times.

    Exclusively at Kooyong from 1972 to 1988, when it moved to the new Melbourne venue for good.

    Seven Davis Cup Challenge Rounds at Kooyong.

    Kooyong is referred to in Australia as "The Spiritual Home of Australian Tennis" even today.

    Not even close.
     
  13. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Yes, indeed.

    David Gray remarked that Hoad was sluggish and slow in the first set, but recovered his strokes in the second and third.

    This was by far the longest match of the Wimbledon pro tournament.

    This match was televised by BBC, and should still be available in the BBC archives, as it was when I inquired in the late 1970's.

    The BBC has released other matches. Why no this one?
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2014
  14. BobbyOne

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    Dan, In thread 1121 you listed up all big Gonzalez/Hoad matches. No Masters is mentioned. You should become more exact! You just forgot the big Masters tournament because Lew lost his both matches to Gonzalez (you thought: "Oh my God, including them would make "My" stats wrong!") and because Hoad lost ALL 12 matches he played there in 1957 and 1958, his worst catastrophe ever!!

    You err: Melbourne was only since 1972 the dominant venue hich means the only venue. Before 1972 there was always a change between four (former five) cities. No city dominating!
     
  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    All, all of them? Really?

    Werden Sie seriös, Herr Lobb! Danke.
     
  16. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, But he played Wembley that year too.
     
  17. BobbyOne

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    Dan, Don't give wrong stats! Till 1971 the numbers of Sydney were 17 and Melbourne only 16. No dominance of Melbourne, especially in the time relevant for our discussion, the Hoad/Gonzalez majors one!!
     
  18. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Very good post
    You are on a streak now!
    Tell me, what's the club al Brisbane?
     
  19. BobbyOne

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    kiki, Thanks. If I only could be on a streak like Muscles was at the French Pro from 1960 to 1966....

    I think it was Milton Courts. There Rosewall reached his last ATP SF in 1979.
     
  20. Dan L

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    No, I included the LA Masters in the calculations of the two Ampol/Qantas tournament championship series in 1958 and 1959, which all had the same amount of points awarded for bonus money.

    That makes them ALL important.

    But in my list of Hoad/Gonzales matches in MAJORS, I included only the following tournaments as MAJORS;

    Kooyong 1958, 1959

    Forest Hills 1957, 1958, 1959

    Roland Garros 1958

    Wembley 1961

    Wimbledon 1967

    The LA Masters, Sydney, Toronto, were also within the Ampol series, but of lesser prestige.

    I have tried to follow the format of the four traditional majors.

    I gave you the stats for Australian "Open", 55 for Melbourne (Kooyong after 1927) only 17 for Sydney, a tiny number for other cities.

    Kooyong is referred to as the "Spiritual Home of Australian Tennis".
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  21. Dan L

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    Yes, and lost to Buchholz, almost immediately after Wimbledon.

    He unretired for only a few weeks.
     
  22. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Compare White City with Kooyong.

    Here is the list.

    Melbourne 55 times (Kooyong from 1927 to 1988.)

    Sydney 17 times (White City from 1924)

    Adelaide 14 times

    Brisbane 7 times

    Perth 3 times

    Christchurch 1 time

    Hastings 1 time

    That describes it nicely.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Right, I confused it with the Memorial Drive which was the venue at Adelaide.Yes, Milton is Brisbane.
     
  24. Dan L

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    Why stop at 1971?

    Why did the shift to Kooyong take place?

    Because it was always viewed as the "Spiritual Home of Australian Tennis".

    I think that the playing surface at Kooyong was better than White City, the climate more suitable for grass courts.

    As Hoad said, even in 1953 with heavy rain, the surface "played beautifully".
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Well if Kooyong had the best grass of the country..figure out for the rest¡¡¡
     
  26. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    You are rather demagogic: I told you that Sydney had more A. Champs. than Melbourne till 1971 and the same amount in the period valid for OUR discussion where you always wrongly claim that Melbourne was more important than Sydney and the other venues. You can't add the modern tennis since 1972 when Melbourne was and is the ONLY venue of AO. That's unfair, my curious friend!

    Masters r.r. was about as important as FH because the same great players entered it.

    How do you reason why Hoad has won 12 big matches in a row there? Edit: has LOST 12 big matches in a row
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2014
  27. BobbyOne

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    But you are not nice towards truth and logic: You just can't transfer the current situation (by the way, NOT anymore your beloved Kooyong but Melbourne Park) to the time we are discussing about. In that time nobody in Australia ever has thought that Melbourne would be the only venue of AO one day!
     
  28. Dan L

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    Well, you had the same pro troupe in every tournament, so that applies to all 14 tournaments on the Ampol series.

    L.A. was below Forest Hills in prestige.

    12 in a row?
     
  29. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Kooyong was always rated above White City for quality and prestige.
     
  30. BobbyOne

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    Dan, Sorry, I meant 12 losses in a row.

    You are wrong: The Masters was a special event: only 7 players participating (French Pro 12 f.i.) and it was a r.r. like Forest Hills.

    The name Masters says that it was a big tournament!
     
  31. Dan L

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    Yes, poor showings in 1957 and 1958 at L.A. cement courts.

    A second-tier event. Hoad often played below form in second-level events.

    In 1959, L.A. was included in the 14-event Ampol/Qantas series, and Hoad played better.

    The "name"?

    If I called my tourney "World Pro", would that make it important?

    "Masters" is a big name only in golf.

    Think Mike Weir.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2014
  32. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Here is how McCauley describes the Cleveland event in 1960,

    "...promoter Jack March still called his Cleveland tournament the World Pro Champs--a rather ludicrous claim"


    Bobby, you couldn't fool Joe McCauley.
     
  33. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    New York was to L.A. what Melbourne was to Sydney, a more cultured, sophisticated town.

    Melbourne University has always been rated above Sydney University (and both rate below my grad university, U of T).

    Kooyong has always been "the Spiritual Home of Australian Tennis".

    This is WHY Kooyong took over as the home of the Australian Open, not

    White City, which was almost demolished.
     
  34. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Kooyong had the courage, but also took advantage of the weakness of the AO in the early 70´s, because their rival cities, such as Sidney,Brisbane and Adelaide probably wouldn´t want to run it.

    At one point may I ask if the Sidney Indoors, with winners including Connors, three times Mac, Gerulaitis,Tanner and overall great draws wasn´t really the most important tournament organized in Australia, at least in the late 70´s-early 80´s???
     
  35. BobbyOne

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    Dan, I can't stand your demagogic statements: The L.A. Masters was of course NOT a second-tier event. In fact it was a super important tournament which followed directly after the F.H. ToC event and had the same great players involved!

    I wonder that you don't realize how ridiculous your "logic" is that an event where Hoad failed was a minor event and an event where Hoad succeeded was a major event...

    The Masters in Open Era was a major!
     
  36. BobbyOne

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    Dan, I was a friend of Joe and we respected each other...
     
  37. BobbyOne

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    kiki, Interesting reasoning and interesting question. The Sydney Indoors aka Australian Indoors were actually an important event but the AO had still a greater reputation.

    By the way, do you know that 43 years old Rosewall beat Gerulaitis (at that time No.3 of the world) 7-6, 6-4 in the SF of the 1977 Sydney Indoors before he gave Jimmy Connors a tough fight in the final (Ken's best final against Jimbo)?
     
  38. Dan L

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    Bobby, a MAJOR tennis or golf event must have a MAJOR facility.

    L.A. Masters (in reality, the L.A. Cement Championship) was NOT by any stretch of imagination a major facility.
     
  39. BobbyOne

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    Dan, The big Masters event was organized by Jack Kramer!

    But I understand; As long Lew lost all matches there, it was an unimportant event but when Lew won some matches in the same tournament it was a major....

    It's really better for me to ignore you because your "logic" is breathtaking and you even don't know important facts of your idol!!!
     
  40. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Amazing Rosewall; I have some anecdotes of Vitas and Ken who were teaming up together for the NY Apples of the WTT.
    What was the score of the final?
     
  41. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Kramer organized 14 tournaments for the 1959 series.

    You cannot say that there were 14 majors that year.

    Some were more prestigious than others, although they all carried the same points for the bonus pool.

    Yes, Hoad played better at the most prestigious events, as Rosewall himself pointed out.

    I chose the pro events which most closely corresponded to established majors, namely, Forest Hills, Kooyong, Roland Garros, Wembley (or Wimbledon in 1967).

    You want more than 4 majors a year? Apparently you do.
     
  42. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    In addition to four major tournaments a year, I would also add the Davis Cup and Kramer Cup (the pro equivalent of the Davis Cup) as major events.

    By this standard, Hoad would exceed Gonzales in major tallies, Gonzales only winning the 1949 Davis Cup.

    Gonzales played the 1961 Kramer Cup, but skipped the final.
     
  43. BobbyOne

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    kiki, The score was 7-5, 6-4, 6-2 which sounds to be a clear victory of Jimbo but John Thirsk in the World of Tennis yearbook writes that Rosewall gave a magnificent performance (I would add at least in the first two sets). Muscles must have played much better than in their 1974, 1975 and 1976 clashes. I once asked Ken if he used different tactics but he never answered my question...But I guess he did, thus the relative small margin. Connors hardly had lost any games in the four rounds leading to the final...
     
  44. BobbyOne

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    Dan on my ignore list for obvious reasons.
     
  45. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Connors certainly defeat Masters by much wider margin next year, in 1978
     
  46. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    I watched that match on TV, and it seemed even on play.

    A younger Rosewall would have won his share of matches against Connors.
     
  47. BobbyOne

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    kiki, Yes, he demolished Geoff Masters 6-0, 6-0, 6-4.

    In the 1977 event Connors had crushed Roche 6-2, 6-0. This might be a good measure how strong Jimmy was indoors at that time and how heroically 43 years old Rosewall must have fought in the final.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
  48. BobbyOne

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    Dan, I envy you for having watched that match. Do you think that Muscles has used different tactics in comparison to the matches he lost so badly?

    I agree of course that a peak or prime Rosewall would have played more successfully against Jimbo than "grandpa Rosewall".
     
  49. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Definitely Rosewall used a different approach, having had the advantage of watching Newcombe, Ashe, and Orantes win big matches against Connors in the interim.

    He was moving Connors around and finding openings for winners.

    Rosewall was certainly not intimidated or surprised by Connors game any longer.
     
  50. BobbyOne

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    Dan, I forgot to concede: Finally a serious post from you.
     

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