Lew Hoad-A discussion on his career

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by pc1, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Fine explanation. But in the same year 1977 Connors crushed Rosewall again in the Las Vegas Challenge Cup 6-0, 6-2 (which of course is not a wonder because a 43 years old can hardly cope with a 25 years top three player).
     
  2. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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  3. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    It seemed to me from watching that the Sydney Indoor was using a slower surface (slow

    rubber?) than usual, which gave Rosewall more time to set up for his shots.

    I actually thought that they were playing on clay, somewhere in California.

    Hoad was on the sidelines and was interviewed, blowing cigarette smoke heavily, and inhaling from a two or three-pronged holder.

    Hoad visibly expressed his disapproval and disgust with the outcome of the match.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
  4. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Is this available online anywhere?
     
  5. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, thanks for the information. You could be right that the surface was rather slow.
     
  6. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    To my understanding, Sidney had a diferent indoor surface than Supreme ( which was the standart carpet for 95% of indoor events).I think it was called Plexipave.

    In 1979 Gerulaitis beat Vilas in four sets in the final.
     
  7. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Rosewall defeated many better players than Connors.
     
  8. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    It should at least exist somewhere, it was a network broadcast in the U.S.A., I think on CBS.
     
  9. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Bobbyone, do you have the details of Rosewall vs Orantes?

    I think Rosewall won a Canadian Open match in 1973 while I am sure Orantes beat Rosewall at Barcelona 1971.Don´t have any idea about others...
     
  10. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    In 1973, Orantes was runner-up to Okker in the Canadian Open final.
     
  11. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    didn´t Borg beat Rosewall there, then? in this case, Okker probably beat Borg in the sf.I think i must have a mess with that match Rosewall won.

    Anyway, Orantes beat Rosewall at the Spanish Open QF in 71, that is sure.
     
  12. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Even as a Rosewall admirer I doubt that Muscles defeated many better players than Connors. I only know of Kramer, Gonzalez, Hoad and Laver (Kramer only when Jake was an old man).
     
  13. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, You are right regarding Spanish Open 1971.

    In the 1973 Canadian Open Borg d Rosewall 2-6,6-1,7-5 (Rosewall leading 3-1, 40:0 in the deciding set; Kenny out of practice for weeks; Borg serving two aces off the wood). In QFs Orantes d Borg 7-5,7-6. SFs: Orantes d Drysdale, and Okker d Molina. Final: Okker d Orantes 6-3,6-2,6-1.

    By the way, Rosewall had beaten Vilas 7-6,6-0 in an early round.

    Orantes leads 2:1 in hth against Rosewall. I don't remember Manolo's second win but I know that Rosewall beat Orantes in the 1977 Mexico City WCT tournament's QF 7-5,6-4.

    Edit: Orantes d Rosewall in the 1977 North Conway QFs 6-7, 6-4, 6-3.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2014
  14. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Thanks Bobbyone, you walking Thesaurus¡¡
     
  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Thanks but it's helpful to have some books like the World of Tennis Yearbooks of the 1970s...
     
  16. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    So...will you check for me Panatta vs Rosewall, Panatta vs Laver and Panatta vs Newcombe?

    I know Roche beat Adriano at the 77 DC finals in Sidney, on grass.Don´t think they met elsewhere.

    Orantes also beat Roche at Wimbledon 1974, that may have been Manolo´s best win on grass.I don´t think he played stronger players when he reached the USO QF in 71 and the Wimbledon semis in 72.
     
  17. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Yes, Orantes met only one great player at the 1971 US Open, and it was.....Pancho Gonzalez whom he beat in four sets in the third round. In the 1972 Wimbledon he beat also only one great player, old Pietrangeli, clearly.

    I also believe that Roche and Panatta met only once. I'm glad you mention their Davis Cup encounter, that great win of Roche. Maybe yet a great player? ;-)

    I don't know if Laver and Panatta ever met.

    I only know that Panatta beat Newcombe in the SFs of the 1976 Italian Open, 6-3,6-4,6-4. Newcombe had beaten Kodes 6-3,6-4 in QFs.

    Rosewall leads Panatta 3:2. At the moment I don't find all their matches. But I know that Rosewall beat Panatta in QFs of the 1976 Las Vegas tournament (Alan King Open) 6-4,6-3 (Rosewall d Gottfried in SFs and lost to Connors in finals) and that Panatta beat Rosewall in the 1977 Houston (River Oaks) WCT tournament in QFs 1-6,6-3,6-4. Panatta had beaten Connors clearly in first round and went on defeating Dibbs and Gerulaitis to win the tournament.
     
  18. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Here is my list,

    1) Borg

    2) Kramer

    3) Gonzales

    4) Hoad

    5) Laver

    6) Newcombe (on grass better than Connors)

    7) Sedgman (on grass)

    8) Trabert (on clay)

    9) Emerson (on grass probably as good as Connors)
     
  19. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Dan,

    You can argue that case in favor of any great player. I certain the Connors would have beat Gonzalez and Hoad at least on occasion and perhaps more than on occasion if they played often.
     
  20. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    The list above shows what I think would have happened typically, with at least nine players better than Connors going down to a younger Rosewall.
     
  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Thanks¡¡¡ when your memory works it works really well.I just started to remember some of the matches you mentioned in your post.Like the Rome sf.And the Houston and Vegas matches.

    For Orantes beating Gonzales at 43 and Pietrangeli about 40 is a prestige win but not a hard one to achieve.even on grass.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2014
  22. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    I think, Laver beat Panatta on clay at Boston US pro 1975, before he lost to Vilas. He had beaten Vilas at Madrid i think in 1973.
     
  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Barcelona 1973

    The 1975 Boston tournament was quite something, ain´t it?
     
  24. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Autsch. How i could change Barcelona for Madrid, even in my memory? Excuses to all Catalans.
     
  25. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Rosewall never beat Borg
     
  26. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Here the missing results:

    Rosewall d Panatta 6-3,6-3 at Bologna 1971

    Rosewall d Panatta 6-3,6-3 at Milan 1973

    Panatta d Rosewall 7-5,3-6,6-3 in the Challenge Cup 1976 at Las Vegas
     
  27. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I can give you a few of the top on your list Dan but that's not a huge amount. Yes I think Newk was perhaps superior to Connors on grass (when in shape) and when in shape he was tough for anyone on any surface but overall I would give it to Connors. One thing must be noted, I really don't think Connors reached his peak level of play until 1976 despite Connors great 1974 tennis season. Newcombe beat Connors several times before that year.

    A healthy and in shape peak Newcombe could defeat anyone on grass. Peak Newcombe was strong on all surfaces.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2014
  28. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Thanks.There is 16 yrs gap between both so it is about normal that young Panatta and old Rosewall lose.

    I see all their encounters were Italy or USA
     
  29. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Thus the more Rosewall's 1976 win at the Alan King Classic, also at Las Vegas (6-4,6-3) is remarkable.
     
  30. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    true, 1976 was Panatta´s best season.One of the only two seasons he played consistently according to his talent.
     
  31. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Laver was 2-0 against Panatta.

    Year City Surface Round Winner Score
    1975 Boston, MS Clay R32 Laver 7-6, 6-2
    1974 Tuscon, AZ Hard R16 Laver 6-4, 6-2
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2014
  32. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Thanks for this information
     
  33. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Sorry, I was thinking of U.S. Open in 1973, but it was Amritraj.
     
  34. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, You mean 1974. In 1973 Borg lost to Pilic.
     
  35. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Rosewall beat Amritraj in both 1973 and 1974. Had his number, like Nastase's.

    By the way, I should add Ashe (on grass) to the list of players above Connors.

    And Nastase on clay and sometimes rubber, whom Rosewall owned.
     
  36. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I was at both matches in 1973 and 1974. Rosewall outclassed Vijay. Vijay looked awesome in defeating Laver in five sets earlier in the 1973 tournament so some actually thought he had a shot to win the whole thing. So Vijay, against Pancho Gonzalez's advice not to hit (or was it serve) to the backhand hit four serves to Rosewall's backhand which was returned for four winners and lost the match. Gonzalez, who apparently was disgusted with Vijay left the stadium.

    In the 1974 tournament Vijay upset Borg in the second round in five sets (history repeats itself) only to face Rosewall again. Vijay crushed Rosewall in the first set 6-2 and led 3-1 in the second. Someone I casually knew turned to me and said "He (meaning Vijay) is going to run right through him!" My thought was that he was wrong and that no one runs through Rosewall. Sure enough Rosewall won the second set and the next two sets to advance. In retrospect Jimmy Connors could run right through Rosewall in those days.
     
  37. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    That´s interesting PC1.

    See you were a fixed up for Forest Hills during those early to middle 70´s years.

    What was your impression on Orantes 1975 triumph? did you watch also his 1976 QF against Borg? finally...did you watch the Smith/Kodes f in 71 ( I did not ,that is why I am interested in knowing something about that final)
     
  38. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Bobby, you should respect his designation of the Cleveland event.

    No major tennis event ever used Ping-Pong scoring.
     
  39. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I watched both Orantes matches at the US Open that you mentioned in person.

    My general impression of the 1975 US Open Orantes-Connors match was that Orantes was the best player easily during the tournament. I watch Orantes with a bit of awe during the 1975 US Open as he used his great control to win matches. As great as Nastase was on har tru I thought Orantes could do more with the tennis ball. When Nastase played Orantes in the US Open in 1975 I felt that while Nastase won one set that Nastase was totally outclassed.

    I was rooting for Vilas in the semi that year against Orantes. Vilas was the favorite by some to win the entire tournament. However I had seen some of the Orantes-Vilas matches during that summer and to say that Vilas had some trouble with the Orantes game is an understatement. Vilas' topspin shots, while strong were not as penetrating as you would expect for such a bull of a player. Vilas had muscles on his muscles but his shots didn't have nearly the penetration of players who weren't as strong physically like Connors for example. I felt the match depended on how well Orantes was playing.

    So Vilas wins the first two sets and led 2-0 in the third before Orantes gets hot and wins six straight games to win the set 6-2. There were long tedious rallies at times. Vilas won the first five games of the fourth set and 15-40 double match point for Vilas. I believe I moved to another seat closer to the exit portal to get a jump on the crowd which was not that huge at that point. As you know Orantes won the next seven games to win the set! I gave faint hope that Vilas would win but you knew it was Orantes' match if he played well. Of course Orantes won the match in the fifth set.

    People picked Connors to win the final but to be honest I thought Connors had little chance. I just felt that Orantes on har tru was just too solid at the baseline and that his passing shots and lobs would be too strong if Connors approached the net. Orantes could also control play with his drop shots and overall game. I just felt on har-tru there was no area for Connors to attack Orantes that he didn't have answers for. I thought both Orantes' backhand and forehand were too solid I thought at the time.

    The next year Orantes played Borg at the 1976 US Open. Borg was the clear favorite. Orantes won the first set but Borg settled down to work by crushing Orantes in winning the next two sets 6-0 6-2 and led 4-0 in the fourth. At this point Borg had won 16 of 18 games against Orantes. Orantes seemed to have no chance. Yet he rallied to win the set 7-5. Part of the reason for the rally was that he used his favorite drop shot tactic only this time he often moved in to volley the Borg return of the drop shot for a winner. Borg, did not allow the loss of the fourth set to bother him and eventually won the match but barely 6-4 in the fifth.

    The problem Orantes had with Borg as did virtually everyone who played him was that Borg's ability to return everything with surprising pace was even beyond that of the great Orantes to handle imo.

    I saw the Kodes-Smith US Open on television but to be honest I remember very little about it. I haven't seen it since that year and it's been a long time. The coverage of tennis in those days were to be nice, just horrible. You also tend to remember a lot more when you are there.

    Hope that helps. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2014
  40. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Thanks for those memoirs.

    Yes, Orantes was a heck of a clay court player and could play also top tennis on carpet and grass, but he focused most of the season on clay ( european red or US green).he won all the important clay court titles at least once, with the exception of RG, when he led 2 sets to 0 to Borg in the 74 final before choking.

    His favourite plot, as you well said, was to attract the other player to the net with a perfect approach, then volley the return with a high lob.His passing shots were deadly and his sliced BH is one of the all time best, probably only second to Rosewall´s.

    Vilas ,as you said, had a mighty yet short ball game Orantes could work on; I remember Lendl beating badly Vilas for a couple of years basically because his top spin shots would land not deep enough and Ivan just unfolded that whipp called forehand.
     
  41. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Bobby, the "Masters" in the open era was NOT the L.A. Cement Championship.


    Two different things.
     
  42. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, I know. Why do you write that down?????
     
  43. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    They mean two different things, you should not equate them.
     
  44. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    "Masters" really means only one thing: GOLF.

    And in Canada, a Canadian champion.
     
  45. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    And you really think that's witty???
     
  46. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    It was witty to Jack Nicklaus, who had a hard time accepting that Weir's game could work at the Masters.
     
  47. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    If you watched that tournament, you will remember the crazy final putts, which skittered all over the green.

    The green had been specially rolled for the playoff, without the players' knowledge, and they hit their putts too hard.

    Is that funny?
     
  48. conway

    conway Banned

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    Reading through this thread is funny. Are there some of you who consider Hoad as possibly the GOAT? Seriously. I can understand his peak level play maybe being the very best in history, but that isn't enough to be the GOAT.
     
  49. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Career stats, which Bobby relies on, can be very misleading.

    The best measure of greatness is level of play in important events.

    Some players were great in minor events but folded in majors.
     
  50. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Most GOAT candidates have 3x the number of majors as Hoad.
     

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