Lew Hoad-A discussion on his career

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by pc1, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. conway

    conway Banned

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    Hoad didn't even have one year he was clearly the best player in the world. In fact he didn't have one year he was the consensus best. So never the best in the world, but the best ever?
     
  2. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    "Clearly"?

    Officially number one in 1959, according to Kramer's office.

    Consensus number one in major events for 1958 and 1959.
     
  3. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Lewis Hoad is the far most discussed forme great on the forum
     
  4. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Yes, with 1,252 replies.

    Wow!

    Thanks, people.
     
  5. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    conway, As far as I know Dan L is the only person on earth considering Hoad the GOAT...
     
  6. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Most experts rely on career stats: achievements, records, results.
     
  7. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Wrong. Kramer's list for 1959: 1 Gonzalez, 2 Sedgman, 3 Rosewall, 4 Hoad.

    I concede that Hoad deserves a Co.-No.1 with Gonzalez (and maybe Rosewall).
     
  8. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Bobby, Kramer's OFFICE (not Kramer personally) rated Hoad number one for 1959, based on the 14 designated tournaments of the Ampol/Qantas series, which, again according to the Kramer organization , was designed to determine the RANKING of the pros that year.
     
  9. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    No, they do not.

    Consider Hoad vs. Budge, Kramer, Gonzales.
     
  10. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    No, they do not. Add Davis Cup and pro equivalent.

    Consider Hoad vs. Budge, Kramer, Gonzales.

    Hoad: 7 amateur
    5 pro
    =12

    Gonzales: (not including Cleveland World Pro, including Philadelphia)
    3 amateur
    7 pro
    = 10

    Kramer: 5 amateur
    3 pro

    Budge: 8 amateur
    3 pro
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2014
  11. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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  12. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    I think you will see that Hoad's list is competitive.
     
  13. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    So, Gonzales is no better than Djokovic,Becker or Agassi?

    JUST 10 majors¡¡¡
     
  14. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    And that of course is not true.

    Gonzalez, if you included the Tournament of Champions won 15 Pro Majors plus and this is big 7 World Championship Tour wins which is bigger than a major. He also won two amateur US Championships.

    By the way isn't it interesting that Agassi and Gonzalez were brother in laws at one point? So a player who had a serve called the greatest of all time was brother in law to a player who had a return called the greatest of all time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2014
  15. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    as they say
    " everything stays at home"
     
  16. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    And of course Agassi married Steffi. Talk about six degrees of separation for tennis DNA. There was a lot of tennis talent associated with Agassi and his family.

    To keep somewhat on topic for Hoad, possibly 1959 was Hoad's best year but I'd still go with Gonzalez was number for that year.
     
  17. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Only if you believe that counting majors is the only way to rate a player.
     
  18. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    I do not think that you can equate a long tour with a major.

    Two different animals.

    By the way, I included Gonzales' two amateur major wins, plus a third for his Davis Cup final win.
     
  19. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Hoad was number one on the official list given out by Kramer's office for 1959.
     
  20. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Yes, I included Gonzales' Forest Hills Pro wins in 1957 and 1958.

    I did not include the Cleveland World Pro as a major, nor the Slazenger Pro.

    Here is my list for Gonzales' MAJOR wins:

    1948 Forest Hills
    1949 Forest Hills
    1949 Davis Cup (Forest Hills)
    1950 Philadelphia
    1951 Wembley (the 1950 event had a weak field)
    1952 Philadelphia
    1952 Wembley
    1956 Wembley
    1957 Forest Hills
    1958 Forest Hills

    Gonzales was unfortunate to have so few opportunities in the mid-50's to play major events.
     
  21. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    For Hoad, I include the following,

    1953 Davis Cup
    1955 Davis Cup
    1956 Australian
    1956 French
    1956 Wimbledon
    1956 Davis Cup
    1957 Wimbledon
    1958 Kooyong
    1959 Forest Hills
    1960 Kooyong
    1961 Kramer Cup
    1962 Kramer Cup

    Again, I did not include the 1959 Australian Pro, as the pro "nationals" were not majors.
     
  22. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Davis Cup and Kramer Cup where you're part of a team are hardly major wins unless Hoad was THE reason for the side winning.
     
  23. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Kooyong was not a major. Awake!
     
  24. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Or a central reason for winning.

    Sure, a back-up player does not necessarily get the nod.

    But many of the greatest matches have been Davis Cup matches, just think about 1937 Budge/von Cramm, 1953 Hoad/Trabert, 1973 Nexcombe/Smith, and many others.
     
  25. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    I am choosing events which correspond to the four majors and Davis Cup.

    Namely, Kooyong (1958, 1959, 1960, 1962), Forest Hills (1957, 1958, 1959), Roland Garros, Wimbledon (1967 only), Kramer Cup (1961 to 1963).

    Kooyong was the most prestigious Australian pro event.

    There were two Kooyong events in the 1959-60 season, and only one White City.

    Kooyong was "the spiritual home of Australian tennis."

    It is like preferring the Gould/Krips recording of the Beethoven Emperor to the Gulda/Krips recording.

    The Gould/Krips has livelier rhythmic pulse, melodic emphasis, interpretive creativity.

    Krips appears more involved in the Gould performance, and the Buffalo Philharmonic played like a great orchestra.

    It is on Youtube.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2014
  26. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Hoad was critical in 1953, 1955, 1961, and central in 1956, 1962.
     
  27. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Even if Kooyong was the most prestigious Aussie pro event (I'm not sure at all it was), it's still not a major!

    Glenn Gould is overrated. He was not a first class Beethoven pianist: too mechanical...Gulda was much better.
     
  28. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Bobby, 10 of the 14 tournaments on the Kramer tour were in Australia.

    The money was there.

    Listen to the 1960 Gould/Krips performance, no mechanical stuff there.
     
  29. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Gould doing a Beethoven piano concerto? Ask Bernstein how that went?

    I'll take Fleisher/Szell or Bishop/Davis (or Perahia/Haitink).
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2014
  30. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Good to see that you are a classical fan, hoodjem.

    Fleisher, Bishop, Gulda are relatively straightforward compared to Gould. I like a recording that gives us something new.

    Gould/Bernstein recorded Beethoven concertos 2, 3, 4 with New York Philharmonic, all of which are widely acclaimed today.

    The controversial performance was the Brahms 1, which was relatively slow for 1962, but is standard today.

    Gould also recorded Beethoven number 1 with Golschmann and the New York Philharmonic, number 3 live with Karajan and Berlin Philharmonic, and numbers 1 to 4 with Krips and the London Symphony, and number 5 with Krips and Buffalo Philharmonic.

    The 1966 Emperor with Stokowski is perhaps a bit unusual, but listen to the Krips, on Youtube.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2014
  31. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    What is a "major" in the old pro tennis days?

    I would nominate first those tournaments held at the major venues, Wimbledon (1967),
    Forest Hills (1941, 1942, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1951, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1963, 1966),
    Roland Garros (1956, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 196eight), and
    Kooyong (1958, 1959, 1960, 1962, 1963).

    Everything else is secondary.

    In some years, Wembley was most important when there were no other major events, but the venue was not first rate.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2014
  32. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Excuse me, that should be Gulda/HORST STEIN.

    Krips was in a special league in Beethoven.

    Krips' Beethoven has become legendary, especially his symphony set from 1960 with the London Symphony.

    Krips hid in a shoe factory during WWII to avoid the Nazis. They were looking for him, as his father had been born Jewish, and converted to Roman Catholic.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2014
  33. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    hoodjem, The best I heard was with Rudolf Serkin (forgot the conductor)-
     
  34. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Gould was great only at Bach, but weak at Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert.
     
  35. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Stokowski was a weak conductor: no soul...
     
  36. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, You can't change tennis history!

    Wembley was the foremost tournament, equal if there were other majors or not.

    There almost was no Australian Pro. In 1957 and 1958 it was held at Sydney.

    Kooyong was NOT a major venue in Down Under. Sydney was equal in importance, and probably Brisbane and Adelaide and Perth too.

    Cleveland was a big major.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2014
  37. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, I believe that Furtwängler and Klemperer were greater Beethoven conductors than Krips.
     
  38. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Wembley (Empire Pool) was the "Mekka" of pro tennis. Don't distort history!
     
  39. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Gould stated that he played everything contrapuntally, even Mozart and Beethoven.

    But that sometimes worked great revelations.
     
  40. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    He had certain strengths, but not usually in the classical era.
     
  41. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Cleveland World Pro was not even bigger than the Slazenger.

    Read the facts. The official facts.
     
  42. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, That was his problem. He could not "sing"...
     
  43. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Read the books! Slazenger is not even mentioned.
     
  44. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Read McCauley.
     
  45. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    His melodic sense exceeded Gulda, whose Emperor I have just heard.

    Think, Bobby, why would Karajan, Bernstein, Krips, Stokowski, Ancerl, Leonard Rose, Yehudi Menuhin, all desire to work with Gould?

    All of these people could "sing", and they did great work in partnership with Gould.
     
  46. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Having recently heard Krips recordings, I place him up with Szell, Erich Kleiber, Bohm.

    He had a natural feel for Beethoven's idiom.
     
  47. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, You are right but Joe's book is maybe the only one that covered the Slazenger tournament.
     
  48. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Gould sounds like a mechanic piano. He also had very strange tempi.
     
  49. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Have just listened to the 1957 Beethoven Third concerto with Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic.

    This alone disproves the idea that Gould was "mechanical". The tempi are standard.

    Here is some Beethoven with Leonard Rose,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUpBCO4TYfM&feature=related

    Bobby, where is there a mechanical or unlyrical moment here?

    Rose stated, "I think that Gould's piano sound is one of the most beautiful piano sounds I have heard in my life".

    The "strange" tempi usually occurred after the 1962 Brahms 1 performance with Bernstein, when Gould was influenced by the very slow tempi of Furtwangler and Klemperer (your favourites).
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
  50. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    And McCauley referred to Cleveland as "World Pro", not U.S. Pro.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014

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